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07-23-2019, 10:57 AM
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#1
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Rivet Master
1990 25' Excella
Sisters
, Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
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And we thought diesels had torque
Just saw an article on a pretty cool publicity stunt that Ford has pulled. They have a video of an electric F-150 pulling 1,000,000 pounds.
https://youtu.be/bXFHgoon7lg
While a stunt, it is true that electric motors have astonishing amounts of torque. The world is about to change.
Cheers,
John
P.S. They didn’t mention what hitch was used.
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
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07-23-2019, 11:12 AM
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#2
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Rivet Master
1990 25' Excella
Sisters
, Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
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Electric vs. Diesel
The biggest difference between torque produced by electric and diesel motors is that with electric the torque is immediately available while with diesel it increases with RPM’s. Chart follows.
Cheers,
John
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
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07-23-2019, 11:27 AM
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#3
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Rivet Master
2018 30' Classic
Thousand Oaks
, California
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,637
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I would imagine that diesel would be able to pull heavy loads for a much longer period of time. Electric, I would be curious about Time it takes to charge fully and how load changes your range. I’ll be the first one to go electric once charging is reasonable and readily accessible
__________________
BigSxyWhtGuy
Follow our adventures!
@airstreamvagabond on Instagram and YouTube
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07-23-2019, 12:00 PM
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#4
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2 Rivet Member
2019 25' International
Reno
, NV
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSxyWhtGuy
I would imagine that diesel would be able to pull heavy loads for a much longer period of time. Electric, I would be curious about Time it takes to charge fully and how load changes your range. I’ll be the first one to go electric once charging is reasonable and readily accessible
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I'm right there with you. I have a deposit on a Rivian. It has 10,000 ft-lbs of torque! There are lots of chargers were we usually travel, but finding one to accommodate a truck with trailer is going to be a challenge. I'm really hoping we can see at least 200 miles of range towing.
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07-23-2019, 01:32 PM
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#5
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Rivet Master
2018 30' Classic
Thousand Oaks
, California
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,637
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[emoji1474]
__________________
BigSxyWhtGuy
Follow our adventures!
@airstreamvagabond on Instagram and YouTube
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07-23-2019, 02:04 PM
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#6
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Overkill Specialist
Commercial Member
2020 30’ Globetrotter
2014 23' International
Dadeville
, Alabama
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 4,516
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The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
I’m all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
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07-23-2019, 02:38 PM
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#7
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2 Rivet Member
2019 25' International
Reno
, NV
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFL
The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
I’m all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
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I have heard this before and is mostly false. Depending on where you live, much of your electricity from the grid may already be from renewable sources. In addition, many people with EVs can put solar panels on their house and charge 100% of their miles from the sun. No one can say that with ICE vehicles. Even if 100% of your power came from coal power, the power plant is likely more efficient and maybe even cleaner burning than your vehicle.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...-still-cleaner
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07-23-2019, 03:40 PM
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#8
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Rivet Master
2017 28' Flying Cloud
2014 25' FB Flying Cloud
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Georgetown (winter)Thayne (summer)
, Texas & Wyoming
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFL
The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
I’m all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
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Agree, but your going to start a whole bunch of static when you tell folks that! And then there is the age old question of disposing of the depleted batteries when you change vehicles or replace the batteries... From what I have read, the "load" will quickly deplete the charge; not sure I would consider going on a trip with my Airstream having to stop every 100-200 miles for a charge...so now your talking about larger batteries, and perhaps even renting two electric camp sites; one for your RV and one for your TV! Nothing wrong with the forward thinkers, I'm just not there yet! 400 miles between fill ups and having fuel stations most everywhere we travel makes the trip much less stressful...but that's just my thinking.
__________________
Empty Nesters; Gypsies on the road! 2017 28' Twin Flying Cloud
2017 F250 King Ranch, 4X4, 6.7L, Blue-Ox WDH
Summer-Star Valley Ranch RV Resort (Thayne, WY); Winter-Sun City (Georgetown,TX)
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07-23-2019, 05:04 PM
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#9
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Site Team
2007 30' Classic S/O
Somewhere
, South Carolina
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,436
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Anybody able to add steam engine data to the graph?
Steam ruled for a long time.
Max torque at stall all you gotta to appreciate the power of steam is add an antique steam tractor pull to your list for 2019.
__________________
S/OS #001 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 5.9L 6 Speed
16" Michelins, Hi Spec Wheels, Max Brake, Dexter 4 Piston Disc Brakes, Carslile Actuator, Equal-I-Zer, Dill TPMS. Campfire cook. BMV-712. DEMCO 21K Lb Cast Iron coupler
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07-23-2019, 05:34 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFL
The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
I’m all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
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That’s not a problem at all. The cost per watt hour is all that matters. The power plant is already running anyway.
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07-23-2019, 05:35 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
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A diesel or gas engine produces no torque or power at zero rpm. An electric motor does. That’s the trick.
__________________
2018 International Serenity 27' FB
Michelin 16” tires
Hensley Arrow hitch
Tow Vehicle: 2020 F-350 6.7L Diesel
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07-23-2019, 06:22 PM
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#12
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Rivet Master
1983 34' Excella
1967 24' Tradewind
Little Rock
, Arkansas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John&Vicki
The biggest difference between torque produced by electric and diesel motors is that with electric the torque is immediately available while with diesel it increases with RPM’s. Chart follows.
Cheers,
John
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That chart has no information. The scales are labeled "Low" and "High". No source.
Utterly meaningless.
Yes, I'm aware that electric motors have high torque right off the bat, while internal combustion engines have to buildup speed. External combustion engines (steam) too for that matter.
My point is that a graph without the scales labeled and the data sourced doesn't mean anything. You may as well pull out your Crayolas and put some squiggles on a piece of paper. Who knows, maybe that's how that graph was done.
__________________
Vaughan
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07-24-2019, 09:30 AM
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#13
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2 Rivet Member
2018 27' Flying Cloud
Standish
, California
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 23
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Battery production
It's not just the production of electricity that's dirty, but the manufacturing of all those batteries is extremely unfriendly to the environment.
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07-24-2019, 10:40 AM
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#14
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Rivet Master
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephiesNana
It's not just the production of electricity that's dirty, but the manufacturing of all those batteries is extremely unfriendly to the environment.
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Everything pollutes. Cost per mile is what I care about.
PS I tow with a diesel
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07-24-2019, 10:47 AM
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#15
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Rivet Master
1990 25' Excella
Sisters
, Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
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More data
Quote:
Originally Posted by vswingfield
That chart has no information. The scales are labeled "Low" and "High". No source.
Utterly meaningless.
Yes, I'm aware that electric motors have high torque right off the bat, while internal combustion engines have to buildup speed. External combustion engines (steam) too for that matter.
My point is that a graph without the scales labeled and the data sourced doesn't mean anything. You may as well pull out your Crayolas and put some squiggles on a piece of paper. Who knows, maybe that's how that graph was done.
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Here you go.
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
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07-24-2019, 11:04 AM
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#16
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFL
The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
I’m all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
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That isn’t an EV problem, that is a generation problem. If you have a fleet of EVs then it is one power plant to change, not the ICEs across a whole fleet. And coal plants are disappearing quickly due to economics.
Where I live the utility company is 98% renewable generation, and that doesn’t consider the additional option of home solar.
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07-24-2019, 11:05 AM
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#17
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Rivet Master
1990 25' Excella
Sisters
, Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
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Complex Topic
Type of energy source used for propulsion, particularly for cars and trucks, is a complex issue. Which makes for a potentially interesting discussion. I’m agnostic about it, free of political or financial conflicts, so I’ll just wail away.
Here are some salient facts, in no particular order, about gasoline, diesel and electric motors. I’m not going to cite sources (with apologies to Vaughn ) as it’s too laborious and I’m not trying to write a Master’s Thesis here.
Efficiency Compared- Conventional gasoline vehicles convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.
- A typical diesel automotive engine operates at around 30%-35% efficient.
- Electric motors are typically 85%-90% efficient.
Other things to tackle include: - consumer cost per comparable unit
- production environmental cost per comparable unit
- consumption environmental cost per comparable unit
- geopolitical consequences
- dependability
- longevity
- convenience
Anyone?
Cheers,
John
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
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07-24-2019, 11:06 AM
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#18
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy59
Everything pollutes. Cost per mile is what I care about.
PS I tow with a diesel
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Cost per km or mile is a valid metric once you cost in the externalities, since everything doesn’t pollute at the same rate.
Sold my diesels years ago, last one went in 2003.
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07-24-2019, 11:07 AM
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#19
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Rivet Master
1964 26' Overlander
1974 31' Sovereign
Milton
, ON
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFL
The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
I’m all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
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That depends on where you live. Canada has less than 20% of electricity coming from fossil fuels, and Ontario where I live is at about 5%. It's true that many places are still using coal to generate electricity, but that's looking more and more like a political decision.
GHG emissions per kwh can vary greatly. Across Canada it goes from a low of 1.2 grams in Quebec to a high of 790 grams in Alberta. I would imagine the variations across America would be similar.
The difference I see is that if one buys an electric car in an area that currently uses coal for electricity you still have the potential for your grid to become greener over the life of the vehicle. If you buy an ICE it's likely to have a fixed production of greenhouse gases over its life.
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07-24-2019, 11:17 AM
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#20
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John&Vicki
Type of energy source used for propulsion, particularly for cars and trucks, is a complex issue. Which makes for a potentially interesting discussion. I’m agnostic about it, free of political or financial conflicts, so I’ll just wail away.
Here are some salient facts, in no particular order, about gasoline, diesel and electric motors. I’m not going to cite sources (with apologies to Vaughn ) as it’s too laborious and I’m not try to write a Master’s Thesis here.
Efficiency Compared- Conventional gasoline vehicles convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.
- A typical diesel automotive engine operates at around 30%-35% efficient.
- Electric motors are typically 85%-90% efficient.
Other things to tackle include: - consumer cost per comparable unit
- production environmental cost per comparable unit
- consumption environmental cost per comparable unit
- geopolitical consequences
- dependability
- longevity
- convenience
Anyone?
Cheers,
John
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Not a bad list.
I would include the terms life cycle, which includes disposal costs, and well-to-wheel. Under geopolitical, I would consider security, and resiliency. I would also consider public health issues.
It is common for people to consider a small portion of the well to wheel costs, perhaps assuming that refined fuels come out of the tank at the filling station. I worked on the development of natural gas fuelled vehicles, including LNG for heavy trucks and industrial equipment, and while tailpipe emissions were significantly better than gasoline or diesel trucks, the methane released at the wellhead had to be considered.
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