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Old 07-30-2019, 06:08 AM   #81
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Tesla Motorhome

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Old 07-30-2019, 02:46 PM   #82
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Got it so I should sell all my cars and trucks with their built in and paid for carbon footprint and by new EVs. Wait they donít make a 1 ton EV or a track ready sports car and the SUV choices arenít high performance or handling as the Audi isnít being delivered.

Ooh well guess Iíll keep what I have and enjoy them for their specific purposes. And where I live there is limited infrastructure anyway and the range in the mountains isnít so great.

On a serious note weíll see better options coming over the next 5 years both electric and fuel cell. And my personal prediction is Tesla is not a survivor but clearly a thought leader.
Tesla may survive if bought out be a major car company, which would be my exit plan.
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Old 07-30-2019, 06:10 PM   #83
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Your story is very encouraging. My next second car will be an electric. But I will keep my diesel tow vehicle for a very long time. After I'm gone the time will come when all vehicles will be electric.
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Old 07-30-2019, 06:19 PM   #84
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No way that EVs will be the car 5 years from now. Not a chance. Not enough capital. Not enough profitability.

China.

Iím not sure that the U.S. is going to dominate EV technology. As is typical, China is working on future generation technology. They are trying to leapfrog the U.S. and the rest of the world in a number of ways. The China Belt, for a prime example.

We play Chess, a sophisticated game of domination. They play Go, a more complicated game of territorial expansion.

Cheers from the upper Wild and Scenic Rogue River,
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:02 AM   #85
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I'm sorry to be cynical but locomotives have been electrically driven forever (as mentionned earlier in the post). In the beginning there were also electric cars but petroleum interests took over and electric cars faded away. I have nothing against Ford but I'm questionning the ethics of using this fogotten fact and presenting it as a novelty.

Electric vehicles are not as ''green'' as marketed (granted) but they are still ''greener'' and most of all, an electric motor is simpler and way more efficient than an ice engine.
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:24 AM   #86
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I'm right there with you. I have a deposit on a Rivian. It has 10,000 ft-lbs of torque! There are lots of chargers were we usually travel, but finding one to accommodate a truck with trailer is going to be a challenge. I'm really hoping we can see at least 200 miles of range towing.
I would also do it. I owned a 2015 Fusion hybrid and it was a great car, had to get rid of it to get my TV. Anyway, my point is I would like to see 300 miles range. Tough when you want to fish Montana/So Dakota with 200.
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:40 AM   #87
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I'm sorry to be cynical but locomotives have been electrically driven forever (as mentionned earlier in the post). In the beginning there were also electric cars but petroleum interests took over and electric cars faded away. I have nothing against Ford but I'm questionning the ethics of using this fogotten fact and presenting it as a novelty.

Electric vehicles are not as ''green'' as marketed (granted) but they are still ''greener'' and most of all, an electric motor is simpler and way more efficient than an ice engine.
Well maybe we should put electric lines above the highways like they do for electric locomotives? Don't compare apples to bananas. Not even a remote comparison.
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:45 AM   #88
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I am on my second electric Ford Focus. Whenever starting to go forward, like at a stoplight etc., I have to take a deep breath and calm down so I don't hit the accelerator too hard and spin out!
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:54 AM   #89
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I would also point out that Ford is going to release a plug In hybrid F150 late next year. I know from a little bit of inside info that it will likely have over 500 hp and 600 ft-lb of torque and will have the highest towing capacity of any 1/2 ton by a significant margin.

Take a look at the for the coming Lincoln Aviator for ideas...


Pure speculation. TFL truck is the the "inside" information. Listen to the presentation and it's a guess. Yes the Navigator is going to have it. But I'll bet you are looking at $100,000 plus for that vehicle. Then we have the payload issues. Just how much do you think those batteries are going to weigh and take away from payload? Might as well buy an F250 diesel for the price. And that's the issue.

Now when that kind of hybrid comes into direct competition with gas/diesel then we have something. And I would be the first to buy one!
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:54 AM   #90
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I'm more impressed with Rivian. They go 0-60 in 3 secs, tow 11,000, fully electric, built in Midwest, Aussie ingenuity. GM is going to use their components as no more engine, entire base is battery system. Rivian has motor on each wheel, no moe traction motor, is water sealed for up to 1 meter. Auto lifts for off road. Travels 410 meself on single charge. I have watched this company and caught the models in Detrout showI have my $1000 deposit down and will test drive soon.
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:09 AM   #91
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Well maybe we should put electric lines above the highways like they do for electric locomotives? Don't compare apples to bananas. Not even a remote comparison.
Here in Vancouver we already have a large fleet of electric transit buses, and have had since 1948, so we have lines above the roads. Catenary overhead wires are also used on off road mining trucks with electric drive, for the long hauls up out of the pit.

But the future is battery, not catenary. Our transit buses are now being changed over to battery electric. 400 km + range, and they charge in 4-7 minutes at each end of their city runs, while the driver has their break.

Think of the motorhome potential.
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:16 AM   #92
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I'm sorry to be cynical but locomotives have been electrically driven forever (as mentioned earlier in the post). In the beginning there were also electric cars but petroleum interests took over and electric cars faded away. I have nothing against Ford but I'm questionning the ethics of using this fogotten fact and presenting it as a novelty.

Electric vehicles are not as ''green'' as marketed (granted) but they are still ''greener'' and most of all, an electric motor is simpler and way more efficient than an ice engine.
Having an electric drive on a locomotive doesn't change the fact that usually the prime mover is diesel (or in some cases, natural gas). The electric drive is simply a transmission.

Electric vehicles can be very green depending on the generation source. 95% renewable here. Fuel has been hitting $1.70 per litre. EV sales are soaring. It will take some areas some time to catch up.
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:31 AM   #93
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No way that EVs will be the car 5 years from now. Not a chance. Not enough capital. Not enough profitability.
lol.

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Originally Posted by John&Vicki View Post
I’m not sure that the U.S. is going to dominate EV technology. As is typical, China is working on future generation technology. They are trying to leapfrog the U.S. and the rest of the world in a number of ways. The China Belt, for a prime example.
I don't think the US (or Canada) are likely at all to dominate. Ford is now working with VW, and that type of collaboration will accelerate their product development.

US manufacturers are dividing up their capital investments between a wide range of technologies (diesel, natural gas, gasoline, battery electric, hybrid), essentially trying to hedge their bets. Meanwhile, others are making strategic decisions (VW, Toyota). I think the more focused manufacturers will come out ahead.

BMW was very successful with the 3 series (we've had many of them, great cars). They used to see their competition as Audi, Mercedes, Volvo. They didn't take Lexus and Infiniti seriously. They certainly didn't take Hyundai seriously. And they were so dismissive of Tesla that they missed that market entirely. Look at the sales figures quoted above. Tesla is reportedly outselling all of them combined in that market class.

BMW started off down the electric vehicle path by thinking of them as distinct products, perhaps best shown by them designing an I series that looked like a toaster. They have now abandoned that strategy, and are integrating battery electric technology into vehicles that look and drive like the rest of their offerings. This strategic misstep set them back years.

I don't think profitability is the limitation, as we are seeing the lines cross now.

If the limitation is capital (and it is a real limitation) then the conclusion I have isn't that BEVs will be slow to come to market, it is that those manufacturers who don't figure out how to partner and also reduce model variability, so as to greatly reduce development and tooling costs, simply won't be here any more.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:10 PM   #94
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The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
I’m all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
We have been working on electric vehicles for 120 years.
Since than we made it to the Moon and back on non electric power.
There is no holy grail to be discovered, today's system of plug and charge is a dead end.
Fuel cells would be the answer however the anti nuclear propaganda has to change before that happens. How perverse is that considering that the largest source of power in the universe is the Sun.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:17 PM   #95
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Having an electric drive on a locomotive doesn't change the fact that usually the prime mover is diesel (or in some cases, natural gas). The electric drive is simply a transmission.

Electric vehicles can be very green depending on the generation source. 95% renewable here. Fuel has been hitting $1.70 per litre. EV sales are soaring. It will take some areas some time to catch up.


Dream on, renewables make up less than 3 % of electricity generation and that is because is is showed up or collective orifices.
It is niche industry not viable to replace Nuclear nor fossil.
EV are soaring is that why Teslas stock is tanking. Pardon the pun.
Eliminate the hype and constant propaganda pushing it all 99 percent wouldn't exist.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:23 PM   #96
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Just saw an article on a pretty cool publicity stunt that Ford has pulled. They have a video of an electric F-150 pulling 1,000,000 pounds.

https://youtu.be/bXFHgoon7lg

While a stunt, it is true that electric motors have astonishing amounts of torque. The world is about to change.

Cheers,
John

P.S. They didnít mention what hitch was used.
I'm late to join this thread and have read a lot of input. Something additional that may have been said or I missed:

Steel on steel is very VERY low rolling resistance. A 1M lb train on steel track can be moved with little difficulty - in fact I have seen some freight cars moved by a mobil wheel assembly a single man can turn to get it going. The problem is stopping it effectively. The F-150 did not LIFT the 1M lb train, it only overcame the rolling resistance of steel wheels sitting on steel rails. Not a simple feat but not what Ford wants us to believe.

I have owned a hybrid. Ran it to 110K miles then traded so I didn't have to change out batteries. Batteries are a net input cost that requires a lot of energy and resources to manufacture and they can be net polluters if not dealt with and manufactured carefully. They have a limited life span. ICE do as well but if maintained they will last hundreds of thousands of miles - hybrid and total battery vehicles will not run as many years but that is MHO since we have not had them around long enough to know. BTW, ever had your car starting battery die over night? Yep, a single point failure in a stack can and will cause you to be stranded.

As some stated here, electricity isn't free to produce. Even the lovely solar cell requires net input of silver and other rare earth metals. They cost money. The cleanest electricity is produced by LNG. Almost zero (except water vapor) environmental output except steam to run turbines. LNG is one of the US greatest assets with likely 500+ years in the ground. Now, I still don't favor electric vehicle for anything except city driving. Too many time-money issues about charging on the open road. While I only take 10 minutes to load my TV with liquid Dino fuel - an electric may take much more time. Swappable batteries? No, I don't want to own someone else's poorly maintained battery stack.

Ford is on to something here no doubt. But I just believe it is for much later. We are awash in fossil fuels, we have cleaned up the exhaust fumes, and there is almost nothing as robust in BTU per cubic volume output as liquid fuel.

My 2.278 cents worth.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:51 PM   #97
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Dream on, renewables make up less than 3 % of electricity generation and that is because is is showed up or collective orifices.
Did you mean shoved up your orfice?

You are quoting a Florida figure and mistakenly assuming that it is a national figure. Look up the numbers. Just because Florida ranks 47 out of 50 doesn't mean that renewable electricity generation isn't a thing in the US. We don't all live in Florida, or for that matter, in the US.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:56 PM   #98
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The cleanest electricity is produced by LNG. Almost zero (except water vapor) environmental output except steam to run turbines. LNG is one of the US greatest assets with likely 500+ years in the ground. Now, I still don't favor electric vehicle for anything except city driving. Too many time-money issues about charging on the open road. While I only take 10 minutes to load my TV with liquid Dino fuel - an electric may take much more time. Swappable batteries? No, I don't want to own someone else's poorly maintained battery stack.
Natural Gas is far from the cleanest electricity, unless you are only comparing it to coal. It has GHG emissions at the point of consumption, and you should look into the methane slip when you follow it back to the wellhead.

LNG is not an asset, it is a storage and shipment method. The asset is the natural gas itself.

I worked on developing natural gas vehicles, heavy equipment, rail, and marine (including cryogenic storage of LNG for mobile applications). It wouldn't have helped our cause to ignore the well-to-wheel impacts.
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:08 PM   #99
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That chart has no information. The scales are labeled "Low" and "High". No source.

Utterly meaningless.

Yes, I'm aware that electric motors have high torque right off the bat, while internal combustion engines have to buildup speed. External combustion engines (steam) too for that matter.

My point is that a graph without the scales labeled and the data sourced doesn't mean anything. You may as well pull out your Crayolas and put some squiggles on a piece of paper. Who knows, maybe that's how that graph was done.
Don't get hung up on the details. It was for illustration purposes.

You got the idea from the graph right? That's all that was for.

High level illustrations. I am sure you can get to the weeds of things if you want. But for high level purposes, I think it was enough.
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:16 PM   #100
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We have been working on electric vehicles for 120 years.
Since than we made it to the Moon and back on non electric power.
There is no holy grail to be discovered, today's system of plug and charge is a dead end.
Fuel cells would be the answer however the anti nuclear propaganda has to change before that happens. How perverse is that considering that the largest source of power in the universe is the Sun.
I don't at all see what fuel cells have to do with "anti nuclear propaganda"
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