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Old 07-23-2019, 10:57 AM   #1
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And we thought diesels had torque

Just saw an article on a pretty cool publicity stunt that Ford has pulled. They have a video of an electric F-150 pulling 1,000,000 pounds.

https://youtu.be/bXFHgoon7lg

While a stunt, it is true that electric motors have astonishing amounts of torque. The world is about to change.

Cheers,
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P.S. They didnít mention what hitch was used.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:12 AM   #2
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Electric vs. Diesel

The biggest difference between torque produced by electric and diesel motors is that with electric the torque is immediately available while with diesel it increases with RPMís. Chart follows.

Cheers,
John
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:27 AM   #3
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I would imagine that diesel would be able to pull heavy loads for a much longer period of time. Electric, I would be curious about Time it takes to charge fully and how load changes your range. Iíll be the first one to go electric once charging is reasonable and readily accessible
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:00 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by BigSxyWhtGuy View Post
I would imagine that diesel would be able to pull heavy loads for a much longer period of time. Electric, I would be curious about Time it takes to charge fully and how load changes your range. Iíll be the first one to go electric once charging is reasonable and readily accessible
I'm right there with you. I have a deposit on a Rivian. It has 10,000 ft-lbs of torque! There are lots of chargers were we usually travel, but finding one to accommodate a truck with trailer is going to be a challenge. I'm really hoping we can see at least 200 miles of range towing.
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Old 07-23-2019, 01:32 PM   #5
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:04 PM   #6
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The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
I’m all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:38 PM   #7
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The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
Iím all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
I have heard this before and is mostly false. Depending on where you live, much of your electricity from the grid may already be from renewable sources. In addition, many people with EVs can put solar panels on their house and charge 100% of their miles from the sun. No one can say that with ICE vehicles. Even if 100% of your power came from coal power, the power plant is likely more efficient and maybe even cleaner burning than your vehicle.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...-still-cleaner
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Old 07-23-2019, 03:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFL View Post
The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
Iím all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
Agree, but your going to start a whole bunch of static when you tell folks that! And then there is the age old question of disposing of the depleted batteries when you change vehicles or replace the batteries... From what I have read, the "load" will quickly deplete the charge; not sure I would consider going on a trip with my Airstream having to stop every 100-200 miles for a charge...so now your talking about larger batteries, and perhaps even renting two electric camp sites; one for your RV and one for your TV! Nothing wrong with the forward thinkers, I'm just not there yet! 400 miles between fill ups and having fuel stations most everywhere we travel makes the trip much less stressful...but that's just my thinking.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:04 PM   #9
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Anybody able to add steam engine data to the graph?

Steam ruled for a long time.

Max torque at stall all you gotta to appreciate the power of steam is add an antique steam tractor pull to your list for 2019.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:34 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by GMFL View Post
The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
Iím all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
Thatís not a problem at all. The cost per watt hour is all that matters. The power plant is already running anyway.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:35 PM   #11
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A diesel or gas engine produces no torque or power at zero rpm. An electric motor does. That’s the trick.
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:22 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by John&Vicki View Post
The biggest difference between torque produced by electric and diesel motors is that with electric the torque is immediately available while with diesel it increases with RPMís. Chart follows.

Cheers,
John
That chart has no information. The scales are labeled "Low" and "High". No source.

Utterly meaningless.

Yes, I'm aware that electric motors have high torque right off the bat, while internal combustion engines have to buildup speed. External combustion engines (steam) too for that matter.

My point is that a graph without the scales labeled and the data sourced doesn't mean anything. You may as well pull out your Crayolas and put some squiggles on a piece of paper. Who knows, maybe that's how that graph was done.
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Old 07-24-2019, 09:30 AM   #13
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Battery production

It's not just the production of electricity that's dirty, but the manufacturing of all those batteries is extremely unfriendly to the environment.
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:40 AM   #14
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It's not just the production of electricity that's dirty, but the manufacturing of all those batteries is extremely unfriendly to the environment.
Everything pollutes. Cost per mile is what I care about.

PS I tow with a diesel
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:47 AM   #15
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More data

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Originally Posted by vswingfield View Post
That chart has no information. The scales are labeled "Low" and "High". No source.

Utterly meaningless.

Yes, I'm aware that electric motors have high torque right off the bat, while internal combustion engines have to buildup speed. External combustion engines (steam) too for that matter.

My point is that a graph without the scales labeled and the data sourced doesn't mean anything. You may as well pull out your Crayolas and put some squiggles on a piece of paper. Who knows, maybe that's how that graph was done.
Here you go.
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Old 07-24-2019, 11:04 AM   #16
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The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
Iím all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
That isnít an EV problem, that is a generation problem. If you have a fleet of EVs then it is one power plant to change, not the ICEs across a whole fleet. And coal plants are disappearing quickly due to economics.

Where I live the utility company is 98% renewable generation, and that doesnít consider the additional option of home solar.
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Old 07-24-2019, 11:05 AM   #17
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Complex Topic

Type of energy source used for propulsion, particularly for cars and trucks, is a complex issue. Which makes for a potentially interesting discussion. I’m agnostic about it, free of political or financial conflicts, so I’ll just wail away.

Here are some salient facts, in no particular order, about gasoline, diesel and electric motors. I’m not going to cite sources (with apologies to Vaughn ) as it’s too laborious and I’m not trying to write a Master’s Thesis here.

Efficiency Compared
  • Conventional gasoline vehicles convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.
  • A typical diesel automotive engine operates at around 30%-35% efficient.
  • Electric motors are typically 85%-90% efficient.

Other things to tackle include:
  • consumer cost per comparable unit
  • production environmental cost per comparable unit
  • consumption environmental cost per comparable unit
  • geopolitical consequences
  • dependability
  • longevity
  • convenience

Anyone?

Cheers,
John
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Old 07-24-2019, 11:06 AM   #18
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Everything pollutes. Cost per mile is what I care about.

PS I tow with a diesel
Cost per km or mile is a valid metric once you cost in the externalities, since everything doesnít pollute at the same rate.

Sold my diesels years ago, last one went in 2003.
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Old 07-24-2019, 11:07 AM   #19
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The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
Iím all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
That depends on where you live. Canada has less than 20% of electricity coming from fossil fuels, and Ontario where I live is at about 5%. It's true that many places are still using coal to generate electricity, but that's looking more and more like a political decision.

GHG emissions per kwh can vary greatly. Across Canada it goes from a low of 1.2 grams in Quebec to a high of 790 grams in Alberta. I would imagine the variations across America would be similar.

The difference I see is that if one buys an electric car in an area that currently uses coal for electricity you still have the potential for your grid to become greener over the life of the vehicle. If you buy an ICE it's likely to have a fixed production of greenhouse gases over its life.
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Old 07-24-2019, 11:17 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by John&Vicki View Post
Type of energy source used for propulsion, particularly for cars and trucks, is a complex issue. Which makes for a potentially interesting discussion. Iím agnostic about it, free of political or financial conflicts, so Iíll just wail away.

Here are some salient facts, in no particular order, about gasoline, diesel and electric motors. Iím not going to cite sources (with apologies to Vaughn ) as itís too laborious and Iím not try to write a Masterís Thesis here.

Efficiency Compared
  • Conventional gasoline vehicles convert about 17%Ė21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.
  • A typical diesel automotive engine operates at around 30%-35% efficient.
  • Electric motors are typically 85%-90% efficient.

Other things to tackle include:
  • consumer cost per comparable unit
  • production environmental cost per comparable unit
  • consumption environmental cost per comparable unit
  • geopolitical consequences
  • dependability
  • longevity
  • convenience

Anyone?

Cheers,
John
Not a bad list.

I would include the terms life cycle, which includes disposal costs, and well-to-wheel. Under geopolitical, I would consider security, and resiliency. I would also consider public health issues.

It is common for people to consider a small portion of the well to wheel costs, perhaps assuming that refined fuels come out of the tank at the filling station. I worked on the development of natural gas fuelled vehicles, including LNG for heavy trucks and industrial equipment, and while tailpipe emissions were significantly better than gasoline or diesel trucks, the methane released at the wellhead had to be considered.
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