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Old 07-31-2019, 01:25 PM   #101
jcl
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Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
I don't at all see what fuel cells have to do with "anti nuclear propaganda"
I suspect that Frank is trying to connect a debate over nuclear power to the increased electrical demand that would be required to produce hydrogen through electrolysis for subsequent use in a hydrogen fuel cell.

Completely ignoring that battery electric and fuel cell adoption will both increase electrical consumption. And that if we want to use the sun, great, but why is solar being skipped right over on the way to nuclear?
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:14 PM   #102
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Dream on, renewables make up less than 3 % of electricity generation and that is because is is showed up or collective orifices.
It is niche industry not viable to replace Nuclear nor fossil.
EV are soaring is that why Teslas stock is tanking. Pardon the pun.
Eliminate the hype and constant propaganda pushing it all 99 percent wouldn't exist.
Actually Solar is the fastest growing segment of new power generation and grid level battery storage is growing almost as fast. Solar is now the cheapest form of power generation.
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:27 PM   #103
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We have been working on electric vehicles for 120 years.
Since than we made it to the Moon and back on non electric power.
There is no holy grail to be discovered, today's system of plug and charge is a dead end.
Fuel cells would be the answer however the anti nuclear propaganda has to change before that happens. How perverse is that considering that the largest source of power in the universe is the Sun.
We have only been working on Lithium ion powered BEVs for a little under ten years. They are a completely new class of battery electric vehicles.

Having owned and drive a BEV for about 6 years now I kind of know that the current fast charging network meets the needs of most people.

Fuel cells are a dead in for many reasons. However, the most challenging in that the yearly maintenance cost of the 10,000 psi fuel station is higher than any possible revenue from selling the fuel. Who wants to invest in something that has no hope of ever showing a profit?

We can easily and safely capture the energy from the largest power source in our solar system with solar panels. In fact it is the cheapest form of power generation right now. We can store the energy in Grid/Home batteries and pump back hydro plants.
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Old 07-31-2019, 03:34 PM   #104
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Of course, the video leaves out any discussion of the truck's performance numbers (like how much torque is being produced). I suspect you could do the same stunt with a properly equipped gas or diesel pickup.
I'm a little late to this discussion, but this kind of stunt reminds me of an old photo of something from the 1940s; see the attachment of the demo with "Four Aces", Timken's demonstrator locomotive.

Fuel cells have been mentioned in this thread; actually NASA has been using fuel cells since the early 60's. To safely handle the hydrogen, they carried it in the form of ammonia, and then ran it through a reformer before running it through the fuel cells.

Ammonia is easy to make, (fairly) easy to handle and transport. You don't have to keep it under tremendous pressure. You can pump it like motor fuel. And a reformer can be made at a reasonable price in quantity. So for several years I've been asking WHY has this avenue been ignored.
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Old 07-31-2019, 05:19 PM   #105
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Natural Gas is far from the cleanest electricity, unless you are only comparing it to coal. It has GHG emissions at the point of consumption, and you should look into the methane slip when you follow it back to the wellhead.

LNG is not an asset, it is a storage and shipment method. The asset is the natural gas itself.

I worked on developing natural gas vehicles, heavy equipment, rail, and marine (including cryogenic storage of LNG for mobile applications). It wouldn't have helped our cause to ignore the well-to-wheel impacts.
Thanks for the correction. Yes NG is stored and transported as LNG. So now I ask how is this fact so...important? Nomenclature. Sorry for misleading the reader. Of course I would find an NG pro to correct this and add 'methane slip' to the story. You may want to expand the acronyms like GHG for the reader so everyone can know what you are saying.

I was speaking of 'clean' in the fossil fuel nomenclature. Of course Hydro is more 'clean' (cleaner) but it has been dying from silt for many years. Nuclear may be considered cleaner but it is so darn expensive and the waste will kill our kids some day. Coal...well it is there and available but needs to be shelved until 2100.

All in all, for the rest of us, NG is a great way to produce electricity. It is in abundance and will be available for many generations.

I will say this - this thread is less about fossil fuel usage and more about whether it out-plays pure electricity for vehicles - since pure electricity is generated by something else. My point was lost...I'll never smile again.
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Old 07-31-2019, 05:20 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
Dream on, renewables make up less than 3 % of electricity generation and that is because is is showed up or collective orifices.
It is niche industry not viable to replace Nuclear nor fossil.
EV are soaring is that why Teslas stock is tanking. Pardon the pun.
Eliminate the hype and constant propaganda pushing it all 99 percent wouldn't exist.
This is old school thinking, and itís changing rapidly. EV and PHEV development is very rapid. Going to the moon (mentioned earlier) was 50 years ago. There is more computing power in my phone than there was in that entire spacecraft AND all of NASA at that time.
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Old 07-31-2019, 07:11 PM   #107
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Electric fandango

A wonderful thread.

As a stock Tesla is changing from a technology company to a manufacturing company in the investment community. That is the biggest reason for the drop in stock price. Mr Muskís drunk (stoned?) tweeting didnít help.

In general, the USA is not a good place to evaluate the electric car market. This thread highlights our issues for adopting alternative fuels. Most ot the USA has wind that blows pollution to the ozone, not an issue for boomers. It is easy to rationalize the problem because it is not ours. It is our childrenís and grand childrenís problem.

Cost remains the ultimate test for new technologies in the USA, not environmental impact, except for a few places, with SoCal being the most prominent smog burdened area. Given SoCals air quality, there is no mystery why EVs, Fuel cells, and LNGs are thriving there.

Europe and Asia are dealing with immediate consequences of ICEís. That is where the most growth will occur for all EVs. If you follow the Audis, BMWs, etc. of the world, you will see focused development to alleviate an immediate problem.

Again thanks for an interesting thread.

Mike
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Old 07-31-2019, 07:16 PM   #108
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Thanks for the correction. Yes NG is stored and transported as LNG. So now I ask how is this fact so...important? Nomenclature. Sorry for misleading the reader. Of course I would find an NG pro to correct this and add 'methane slip' to the story. You may want to expand the acronyms like GHG for the reader so everyone can know what you are saying.

I was speaking of 'clean' in the fossil fuel nomenclature. Of course Hydro is more 'clean' (cleaner) but it has been dying from silt for many years. Nuclear may be considered cleaner but it is so darn expensive and the waste will kill our kids some day. Coal...well it is there and available but needs to be shelved until 2100.

All in all, for the rest of us, NG is a great way to produce electricity. It is in abundance and will be available for many generations.

I will say this - this thread is less about fossil fuel usage and more about whether it out-plays pure electricity for vehicles - since pure electricity is generated by something else. My point was lost...I'll never smile again.
LNG vs NG is important given the discussion above about energy density. It is how we overcame packaging limitations on vehicles and kept sufficient range. LNG was widely misunderstood. Some thought it was a fuel, even though it wasnít flammable and our engines couldnít burn it, we had to warm it up to make NG first.

You know this, but for those that donít, natural gas production often releases methane, which is a greenhouse gas (GHG). We need to stop thinking of only exhaust particulates as pollution, and recognize that some pollutants are not visible.

I think that operating from a position of fossil fuels being either more clean or more dirty is the problem. They are all dirty. When people promote clean diesel or eco diesel and claim that it is therefore non-polluting, that is ridiculous IMO. It is cleaner than diesels of a decade ago, but it takes a special kind of thinking to not see clean diesel as an oxymoron. Nuclear may kill our kids some day, but fossil fuels are killing them now. It is time to address it.

I donít think NG is a great fuel. I think it is a good transitional fuel. If we arenít transitioning to something cleaner, better to just skip it.

I get your point. But I see no reason not to keep the discussion based on facts. Smile!
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:37 PM   #109
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Sure like the electric cars and trucks and would love to get rid of the motor and the fuel tank and the darn DEF system and the exhaust and just toss it all.

However with our 55 gallon fuel tank we have tons of range and I can't see any battery pack coming close to giving a good range while towing.

And I sort of like going to gas stations, but don't tell anybody.

But if there was ever an electric truck with great range it would be my first choice.
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:53 PM   #110
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Sure like the electric cars and trucks and would love to get rid of the motor and the fuel tank and the darn DEF system and the exhaust and just toss it all.

However with our 55 gallon fuel tank we have tons of range and I can't see any battery pack coming close to giving a good range while towing.

And I sort of like going to gas stations, but don't tell anybody.

But if there was ever an electric truck with great range it would be my first choice.
I recall working in a shop and changing sparkplugs every year, changing oil and filter every 3000 miles or 3 months, and replacing exhaust systems when they rusted through every couple of years. Thought we should be able to do better. My current vehicle goes 24,000 km between oil and filter changes, has 150,000 km sparkplugs, has a lifetime exhaust system and it isn't unusual, we all think it is pretty normal. We are just seeing the first phase of battery electric vehicle (BEV) development.
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Old 08-01-2019, 08:30 AM   #111
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Thanks SRANGER for a thorough and concise account off your EV build. It was a pleasure to follow such a clear and logical process. I have sent a link through to my eldest grandson as a reference.
I on the other hand had a Tesla S in Ludicrous/ Sport mode and have never been the same since
My love affair with Oil Digesters started back in the 60's with a 1939 Chev Coupe Master Delux through to my now Airstream 345.
As my Grandchildren grow up I'm watching as my eldest found my spare AC50 HPEVS motor and has pinched it and inserting it into a simple Peugeot 106, after he had helped his Grandfather convert a Leyland 154 Tractor to a full ellectric D&D shunt.
I'm some way in explaining to the youngest grandchild the error off my ways when at 13y I found that 6v foot operated crank button to fire up that old splash fed Chevy I mentioned earlier and blasted it around with no regards for any tomorrow's.......
and how Fossil Fuels we burn today are from Oceans full off simple CO2 consuming creatures that in their abundance and sucsess released oxygen back into the environment to their own demise that has enabled us more intelligent umm I mean oxygen consuming creatures to thrive till we manage to reverse the process in all our magnificence.
On the work bench I have the stage 3 Carbon/Carbon/ Potassium batteries near test mode, if I'm happy with the design and I am able to re-charge at 100 amp 96v rate then I have noticed myself on my back under the 345 eyeing up all that empty space along that 35ft length and that oil digester!
Oh here is a usefull rough couple off numbers =1 gal off gas is equal to 30Kwh battery.
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Old 08-01-2019, 10:24 AM   #112
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No one here has addressed the challenge of towing a 25' or larger AS more than 200 miles between charges, with an average 1400+ "payload" capability (TW, passengers, camp cargo), to places most of us like to go camping with our AS's: the beaches and the mountains or across the US.... I just don't see this as reality in the near future pulling an AS or SOB 25' or larger...sure, there will be some folks who will limit their trips with smaller trailers arguing this is the wave of the future, but find a charging station in/near a campground that you can use while your staying overnight in the campground....just saying doesn't seem there is a near term solution. I think the improvements in todays 1/2T and larger PU's will continue to dominate the choice for a TV for sometime.
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:00 AM   #113
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Dream on, renewables make up less than 3 % of electricity generation and that is because is is showed up or collective orifices.
It is niche industry not viable to replace Nuclear nor fossil.
EV are soaring is that why Teslas stock is tanking. Pardon the pun.
Eliminate the hype and constant propaganda pushing it all 99 percent wouldn't exist.
Still, dreaming is good.

All over Earth all my life I rode bicycles.
And I would dream while grinding up some trail, "Wouldn't it be nice to just have a little motor on this thing?"

Now I have a 500Watt/Hour LiFePO4 battery coupled to a 250 Watt motor on a fully suspended carbon fat tire back-to-the-future bike.

Why not a dream truck?
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:07 AM   #114
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No one here has addressed the challenge of towing a 25' or larger AS more than 200 miles between charges, with an average 1400+ "payload" capability (TW, passengers, camp cargo), to places most of us like to go camping with our AS's: the beaches and the mountains or across the US.... I just don't see this as reality in the near future pulling an AS or SOB 25' or larger...sure, there will be some folks who will limit their trips with smaller trailers arguing this is the wave of the future, but find a charging station in/near a campground that you can use while your staying overnight in the campground....just saying doesn't seem there is a near term solution. I think the improvements in todays 1/2T and larger PU's will continue to dominate the choice for a TV for sometime.
I'd be the first to agree that it isn't there yet, but there is no technical reason a battery electric truck couldn't have sufficient range while towing. But will it?

If I think back to why bumper pull trailers were created, it was to make the family car a dual purpose vehicle; solo transportation use most of the time, with the ability to pull a trailer on occasion. It has evolved to where many have single purpose tow vehicles, or larger trucks that are able to be used for local transportation, but which are primarily spec'd for towing. Then add a smaller more efficient vehicle for local trips, increasingly battery electric. The pickup or van becomes even more single purpose.

Now change the paradigm. If one is going to have a dedicated vehicle for camping, why would one start with a truck? A truck plus trailer is two purchases, but a motorhome is one. And with the increasing availability of battery electric commercial vans, mini buses, and larger buses, a battery electric motorhome is fairly straightforward to conceive of. Concepts are showing up now. No surprise, given the fuel costs of a current diesel motorhome. Current BEV buses are going 400 km between charges, fully loaded, and that is just the start. Our public transit system has switched to electric buses for future purchases. The latest purchase was for a fleet of 80 battery electric buses, and they all came from China, which is ahead in this race.

I suspect that there will be more development of BEV motorhomes in future, and that that will be a competitive challenge for manufacturers of camper trailers that require larger tow vehicles.

Sure, pickups will be around for years. And they will gain improvements in efficiency as well. No question. But the market could fragment, and towing could be less of a market differentiator if there are more alternatives to towing.
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Old 08-01-2019, 06:09 PM   #115
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Actually Solar is the fastest growing segment of new power generation and grid level battery storage is growing almost as fast. Solar is now the cheapest form of power generation.
Like I said Dream on. .
The Earth doesn't have enough surface area available to build solar those monstrous solar farms that would be needed to replace the current energy needs. And there are those pesky sunsets to deal with.
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:13 PM   #116
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Like I said Dream on. .
The Earth doesn't have enough surface area available to build solar those monstrous solar farms that would be needed to replace the current energy needs. And there are those pesky sunsets to deal with.
Itís OK, we still have coal probably for another 5 years at least, Nuclear and natural gas power generation. Plenty of electricity, produced right here by American workers. And thousands of jobs upgrading the infrastructure so we can accommodate the small percentage of EVs that will be out there. And hopefully at least 5 years before any stiffer environmental laws restrict out diesels.

You really CAN have it all.
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:07 AM   #117
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Like I said Dream on. .
The Earth doesn't have enough surface area available to build solar those monstrous solar farms that would be needed to replace the current energy needs. And there are those pesky sunsets to deal with.
It would take only a small amount (relatively) of land to meet the US needs with solar power as they would be supplemented by batteries and pumped hydro. I am a huge fan of nuclear but they are simply too capital intensive in their current form.
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Old 08-02-2019, 07:53 AM   #118
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Like I said Dream on. .
The Earth doesn't have enough surface area available to build solar those monstrous solar farms that would be needed to replace the current energy needs. And there are those pesky sunsets to deal with.
Obviously you have not calculated what area would be needed or you would not have posted this reply. Grid and home batteries will take care of the sunsets along with pump back hydro water projects.
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Old 08-02-2019, 08:05 AM   #119
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Old 08-02-2019, 08:21 AM   #120
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No one here has addressed the challenge of towing a 25' or larger AS more than 200 miles between charges, with an average 1400+ "payload" capability (TW, passengers, camp cargo), to places most of us like to go camping with our AS's: the beaches and the mountains or across the US.... I just don't see this as reality in the near future pulling an AS or SOB 25' or larger...sure, there will be some folks who will limit their trips with smaller trailers arguing this is the wave of the future, but find a charging station in/near a campground that you can use while your staying overnight in the campground....just saying doesn't seem there is a near term solution. I think the improvements in todays 1/2T and larger PU's will continue to dominate the choice for a TV for sometime.
I will directly address this one. It would take approximately 320 KWh of battery to tow a 25í Airstream and family and gear 500 miles. That is a little over three times the capacity of a Tesla Model S or X. The Tesla Semi prototypes can do this now so we know it is possible although not practical.

Battery energy density has been progressing at a rate of 7% per year and prices have dropped form $1,000 per kWh in 2008 to $125 per kWh today. So you would be looking at a $40,000 3,000 lb battery today. In five years that would likely drop to about $10,000 2,000 lb battery and I think that is when we will see an all electric truck under $100,000 that could fully replace a 250/2500 truck.

Also by then we will have a nation wide 800v charging system. The current system is 400v. An 800v system will allow for a charging rate of 320 kw per hour. The charge rate does slow down as the better gets full. So with a 500 mile towing range combined with a 1hr stop for lunch you could tow well over 800 miles.

Starting next year, I think we will see a plug in hybrid from Ford with around 15,000 lb of towing capacity and enough EV range to cover a typical 50 miles of daily driving. This will be the stop gap between iCE and all electric trucks. It will be all electric for daily use and burn fuel for trips and towing. Then in 5-10 years the national fleet will move mostly to all electric. This will happen not because they are much cleaner, but because they will be better at every aspect of driving and towing.
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