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Old 08-08-2019, 06:54 PM   #201
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OK. Now let's move on to APV's - Alternatively Propelled Vehicles.
i agree...
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:01 PM   #202
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I tried but he persisted...


#HePersisted

The link I provided was from NASA - not any media outlet. Am I not supposed to trust NASA at this point? Houston - we have a problem....

You haven’t addressed a single thing I’ve said with any seriousness. The best you have is that NASA’s summary (essentially the equivalent of 2+2=4) has been “debunked” because it’s “media” (presumably more “fake news”?).

On what set of scientific facts would you suggest we find some basis for discussion?
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:11 PM   #203
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Perhaps one problem with fuel cells is that there is an infinite supply of fuel. It comes from water, right? Heck, you get two hydrogen molecules to every one oxygen (I know, I’m a total simpleton). Is the extraction process complicated, i.e. expensive? If the technology got simple enough it would put a whole lot of wildly profitable and powerful companies out of business.

I recall a story that when they first introduced buses in Los Angeles that they were electric. But the oil industry quickly made a bunch of deals that steered things to ICE. I’m not being political but it just makes sense to me to take developing technologies seriously as they do have the ability to improve things.

Take horse propelled vehicles for example before ICE. There was a prediction when they were the mode of transportation that it wouldn’t be long before New York was piled with horse manure 10’ high. Nice that the ICE bailed us out of that. Although the wagon manufacturers probably didn’t like it. Some switched to automobiles but many, not realizing that they were in the transportation business, not the wagon business, went out of business. But I digress, a weakness of mine.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:30 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
#HePersisted

The link I provided was from NASA - not any media outlet. Am I not supposed to trust NASA at this point? Houston - we have a problem....

You haven’t addressed a single thing I’ve said with any seriousness. The best you have is that NASA’s summary (essentially the equivalent of 2+2=4) has been “debunked” because it’s “media” (presumably more “fake news”?).

On what set of scientific facts would you suggest we find some basis for discussion?

Take it offline please. This discussion is about APV's.


Thanks,
John
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:15 PM   #205
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Keep running this course were on, no obstructions....or orders from anyone OP included......
This converststion will lead back to new motive power options anyway under its own steam and in its own time!
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:29 PM   #206
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Perhaps one problem with fuel cells is that there is an infinite supply of fuel....
The real problem with hydrogen, whether for fuel cells or as a fuel in an ICE, is obtaining hydrogen. While it is plentiful, it isn't plentiful in the form we need it to consider it a fuel. Hydrogen is best thought of as a battery, or carrier of energy, and not as a primary energy source.

You can make hydrogen for use as a fuel, starting from natural gas, or with electrolysis and using electricity. Both take more energy to make the hydrogen than you get back out of the hydrogen.

As a fuel cell for transportation use, hydrogen makes sense if you have a cheap and green source of electricity, most likely solar panels. It is only as green as the primary energy source for its production. You would make the hydrogen very close to where you refueled, eliminating the transportation issues. At that point, the fuel cell is essentially a battery, but you recharge it with hydrogen instead of plugging in.

As an aside, we have had a fuel cell pioneer here in Vancouver for years. That led to lots of local experimentation with fuel cells. With some now making it to market, and a local hydrogen production and distribution facility, we have our first few public hydrogen refueling stations. The first pump was at a Shell station a few km from where I live. When they opened for hydrogen sales, three manufacturers had hydrogen fuel cell vehicles there (Hyundai, Toyota, Honda). This station was the first in Canada; there are now seven more locally, and others in other provinces. Every time I read about how this can't be done I think about driving past this station. Reports are a 3 min refueling time, and a 700 km range on a standard vehicle (not a tow vehicle).

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Old 08-09-2019, 01:33 AM   #207
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The main problem with these electric Vehicles is the amount of fossil fuels burned to produce the electricity to charge them causes more pollution than just burning the fuel in the vehicle.
Converting coal into steam, into AC electricity, into DC electricity there is a loss.
I’m all for it and hope one one they can get the charging and range figured out but, we are not there yet.
Meanwhile,
I am sitting here in Germany today in the picturesc midevel Bavarian town of Wolfram Echenbach. Outside sits my rental car a brand new 2020
BMW 6 AG5.0 D. That is a 5 litre blue diesel monster with a top speed of 260 kilometer ph. With a windshild heads up display. The big diesel sedans rule the autobahns in Gerrmany. BMW, Audie, Mercedes. My wifes relatives , all well to do farmers drive all of the above. The reason diesel is 25 percent less expensive here and they are the fastest things on the road.
Taxes make up over half of the fuel costs. They think EVs are a joke.
This area is Germanies Midwest in thought and life style. Very conservative.
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Old 08-09-2019, 08:22 AM   #208
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Keep running this course were on, no obstructions....or orders from anyone OP included......
This converststion will lead back to new motive power options anyway under its own steam and in its own time!
Voltaire...

When I read your message in email my first thought was that you must not live in the U.S. Then when I read it at the forum I saw that you live in New Zealand. Unless you’re in this country with the daily barrage of negativity from all sides you cannot imagine how polarized we have become here. It’s very difficult to maintain an intelligent discussion without things devolving into an emotional melt down.

I’m really sick of it and I’m sure many of the folks here are to. So I’m determined to keep this discussion on the rails.

Please excuse the digression.

John
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Old 08-09-2019, 08:43 AM   #209
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Maybe in the mountains. In Munich they are putting in charging stations. And transit (S bahn and U bahn) are much faster than driving (powered by catenary).

Sorry to burst your bubble, I spend a lot of time over there working.
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Old 08-09-2019, 08:59 AM   #210
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Funny you should mention bmw.... just last month....

”BMW chief executive Harald Krüger to step down. BMW's chief executive Harald Krüger has quit days before a board meeting that was due to decide his future, putting the carmaker under pressure to find a successor to deal with falling profits and catch up with rivals in the race to develop electric vehicles.

Jul 5, 2019”
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Old 08-09-2019, 01:01 PM   #211
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Meanwhile,
I am sitting here in Germany today in the picturesque medieval Bavarian town of Wolfram Echenbach. Outside sits my rental car, a brand new 2020
BMW 6 AG 5.0 D. That is a 5 litre blue diesel monster ....
3.0 litre. Trunk badges don’t indicate actual displacement with BMWs.
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:14 PM   #212
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Actually BMW has been pushing both EV and fuel cells pretty hard for some time.
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:19 PM   #213
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IMHO the problem with fuel cell vehicles is that there is not a clear enough pathway to making money for anyone to go all in. There are several things that have to happen to make money and it generally would not be the same person/company doing them, so no one is doing them. For EVs Elon could basically make it happen because it was primarily stuffing batteries into a Lotus to start and electric lines with the needed electrons are everywhere. Fuel Cells are still expensive (platinum), finicky at temperature and they degrade too fast. That is hard and expensive. But then you have to make hydrogen and transport it. That is hard and expensive. Then you have to try to pump it and store it in the vehicle. That is hard and expensive. If there were a clear pathway to solving one or perhaps two of those things then a large company like Shell might partner with someone like Hyundai and make it happen. But it is a multi-pronged chicken-egg problem. The potential payoffs are large but it lacks coordination. Too bad. I hope they get it sorted as it would be a good complement to BEVs.
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Old 08-09-2019, 07:05 PM   #214
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Actually BMW has been pushing both EV and fuel cells pretty hard for some time.
I think BMW made some strategic mistakes on alternate fuelled vehicles.

First they pushed hydrogen, for years, as an ICE fuel. I couldn’t understand why, if you had hydrogen, you would want to run it through an ICE. But BMW was married to advanced spark ignited piston engines, so that is what they built for hydrogen fuel.

Then, they put a cautious toe in the water with BEVs, but they saw them as something different than their core identity (probably having to do with having motor in their name) and so they purposely made them different, in looks, and in branding. That failed.

Now they are trying a bit of everything, but are late to the party. Their recent fuel cell vehicle plans come with announcements that they don’t think fuel cells are a long term solution. Their BEV development is behind schedule, because they abandoned the independent identity approach of the i3 and are working to integrate BEV into existing product lines. And the diesels they spent so much time, effort and capital developing are being legislated out of existence.

I predict they will be absorbed. Not sure by who. Ford was an obvious potential partner, but they are now working with VW. Maybe another German manufacturer.
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Old 08-10-2019, 05:55 AM   #215
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Actually BMW has been pushing both EV and fuel cells pretty hard for some time.
Saw lots of i3s when I was there last time.
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Old 08-14-2019, 05:24 PM   #216
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Electric vehicles are coming and self driving vehicles are coming. In every major industry, technology will move forward. Some will resist it and old tech will be around for quite some time to fill the market demand of late adopters. I for one will embrace it, as it matures.
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:51 PM   #217
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Electric vehicles are coming and self driving vehicles are coming. In every major industry, technology will move forward. Some will resist it and old tech will be around for quite some time to fill the market demand of late adopters. I for one will embrace it, as it matures.


I just used automatic cruise control while towing... worked like a charm! I’m definitely in the “embrace it” camp.
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:14 PM   #218
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I just used automatic cruise control while towing... worked like a charm! I’m definitely in the “embrace it” camp.


Agreed, I like the adaptive cruise control as well.
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:30 PM   #219
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I just used automatic cruise control while towing... worked like a charm! I’m definitely in the “embrace it” camp.


And I’m not so sure, problem is it slows down really early and I don’t always catch it, so then passing is not as smooth where you just keep momentum, just turned it off and will see how I like towing with regular cruise next week.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:24 PM   #220
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To me these are the hurdles for EVs to become long distance vehicles.
1). Range. (Especially in cold climates).
2). Charge time and enough charging stations. (No one wants to sit in a long line for an hour)
3). Battery life.
4). Cost of the vehicle.

So over time technology does become cheaper as it becomes more pervasive. Example: computer, cell phones,etc.

I believe in the short-run EVs will be everyday drivers. I can see that very very easily.

As to TVs time will tell with regard to development of #1 and #2 above.

One interesting side bar is that Ford is developing a duel fuel car. One that runs off a battery and the other a gas engine. Apparently when one gives out the other takes over. Interesting idea.
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