Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-24-2019, 11:36 AM   #21
Site Team
 
wulfraat's Avatar

 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,300
Images: 1
And we thought diesels had torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runs_4_beer View Post
I have heard this before and is mostly false. Depending on where you live, much of your electricity from the grid may already be from renewable sources. In addition, many people with EVs can put solar panels on their house and charge 100% of their miles from the sun. No one can say that with ICE vehicles. Even if 100% of your power came from coal power, the power plant is likely more efficient and maybe even cleaner burning than your vehicle.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...-still-cleaner


In addition, we charge overnight, when there is over production on the grid / surplus power availability that is normally wasted.

At least grid power and the energy / pollution used / created to generate it is less wasted when a few EV owners charge in low demand time slots.

I applaud ford for being part of a growing group of manufacturers leading the way with a modernized approach to transportation.

If you’ve never driven an electric vehicle - you should try it. We have a gas suv for our business, diesel 2500 for towing the airsteam and a full electric for personal use in the garage. Hands down the electric car is the go to no question. They are evolving... they are getting there... manufactures need to lead the way if they want to stay relevant.
wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 11:47 AM   #22
3 Rivet Member
 
2019 30' Flying Cloud
Grass Lake , Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by vswingfield View Post
That chart has no information. The scales are labeled "Low" and "High". No source.

Utterly meaningless.

Yes, I'm aware that electric motors have high torque right off the bat, while internal combustion engines have to buildup speed. External combustion engines (steam) too for that matter.

My point is that a graph without the scales labeled and the data sourced doesn't mean anything. You may as well pull out your Crayolas and put some squiggles on a piece of paper. Who knows, maybe that's how that graph was done.

I think his point was to show (qualitatively) that diesel (and gas) engines produce their maximum torque in a fairly narrow band, whereas electric motors produce torque across their entire speed range.

If you want quantitative, the torque in a synchronous motor is given by:


T=k*B_r*B_net*sin(delta)

Where B_r is the rotor magnetic flux, B_net is the sum of the rotor and stator magnetic fluxes, k is a constant (geometry dependent) and delta is the angle between the rotor and net magnetic flux. Notice that the rotor speed doesn't show up in the relationship which means the torque is independent of rotational speed. This is why electric motors are excellent in traction applications like locomotives. I'm assuming they're using a PM synchronous motor as most electric vehicles do.

Of course, the video leaves out any discussion of the truck's performance numbers (like how much torque is being produced). I suspect you could do the same stunt with a properly equipped gas or diesel pickup.
oldenavy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 11:56 AM   #23
Site Team
 
wulfraat's Avatar

 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,300
Images: 1
And we thought diesels had torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy59 View Post
Everything pollutes. Cost per mile is what I care about.



PS I tow with a diesel

For what it is worth after 2 years with a new 2017 diesel and new electric car side by side, 12k miles / year on each....

Cost per mile “all in operating costs” for fuel, maintenance, oil changes, tire rotations, etc on my 2017 2500 diesel is $0.2514 / mile.

Cost per mile “all in operating costs” for electricity, maintenance, etc in our electric car is $0.0475

It literally costs us 5.3 times more per mile for the diesel from an opX perspective. We always use the electric car unless we “need” the diesel for towing / hauling / etc
wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 11:58 AM   #24
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Images: 4
Thanks Wulf, that is really informative!



John
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 12:37 PM   #25
2 Rivet Member
 
Runs_4_beer's Avatar
 
2019 25' International
Reno , NV
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by wulfraat View Post
For what it is worth after 2 years with a new 2017 diesel and new electric car side by side, 12k miles / year on each....

Cost per mile “all in operating costs” for fuel, maintenance, oil changes, tire rotations, etc on my 2017 2500 diesel is $0.2514 / mile.

Cost per mile “all in operating costs” for electricity, maintenance, etc in our electric car is $0.0475

It literally costs us 5.3 times more per mile for the diesel from an opX perspective. We always use the electric car unless we “need” the diesel for towing / hauling / etc
I haven't done the math like you, but my experience is similar. I will take our i3 out any time for runs around town over the F350.

Something that will need to be addressed and I hope they can make it fair, most places use gas tax to pay for roads. My EV doesn't pay for the roads I rely on. Although by little i3 does a fraction of road wear as a bigger vehicle. But if we're going to eventually have full size EV trucks towing trailers, we need a solution. Atlis is supposed to be coming to market with a 1ton EV. Not sure how realistic some of their claims are, but any advancement is good to me.
Runs_4_beer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 01:09 PM   #26
4 Rivet Member
 
vintageracer's Avatar
 
1977 Argosy Minuet 6.0 Metre
Nashville , Tennessee
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 347
I can figure the Horsepower here in this picture however I am having a big problem determining the amount of torque produced????

I am also curious as to the amount of methane production,
amount of waste disposal and agricultural feed issues to produce this much Horsepower!

Seems rather extreme however he does have a good towing setup and hitch!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	hORSEPOWER WAGON.jpg
Views:	37
Size:	58.2 KB
ID:	347494  
__________________
Mike

Remember "Drive Fast, Turn Heads, Break Hearts"
vintageracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 01:27 PM   #27
CLOUDSPLITTER "Tahawus"
 
ROBERT CROSS's Avatar

 
2003 25' Classic
Zanadude Nebula , Milky Way
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,154
Images: 1
Electric pickup pulls a train...big deal. 😂



Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
Tahawus

Love for the Adirondacks

"It is more wiser to ponder all things with diligent suspicion, than follow with blind assumption."
RLC
ROBERT CROSS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 01:30 PM   #28
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Images: 4
Probably like an electric motor - full torque immediately. As someone who used to race Porsches a bit, I was very familiar with the old adage: “Torque wins races, horsepower sells cars.”

This one was raced (rallied) and shown once. Too much cleaning!



But I digress, in my own thread.
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 01:43 PM   #29
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Images: 4
OK, this is typically where a thread wanders off topic (I’m totally guilty!). But this topic is too interesting to let it go off the rails.

Beer Runner makes a good point - how is highway construction going to be funded when gasoline sales start dwindling? There’s going to have to be another funding mechanism. Perhaps some sort of mileage tax on vehicles? With today’s technology it would be possible for tax agencies to monitor things digitally and remotely. Which sends shivers down my spine.

As I mentioned, there are so many complexities to this issue.
__________________
John Audette
Air Cooled Porsche Specialist -

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 01:49 PM   #30
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by John&Vicki View Post
OK, this is typically where a thread wanders off topic (I’m totally guilty!). But this topic is too interesting to let it go off the rails.

Beer Runner makes a good point - how is highway construction going to be funded when gasoline sales start dwindling? There’s going to have to be another funding mechanism. Perhaps some sort of mileage tax on vehicles? With today’s technology it would be possible for tax agencies to monitor things digitally and remotely. Which sends shivers down my spine.

As I mentioned, there are so many complexities to this issue.
Mobility pricing. Either by time, or distance, or a flat fee. Could include some form of congestion pricing (zones), using GPS or a transponder. Could be a toll. Most likely it will include elements of all these.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 02:00 PM   #31
Aluminut
 
Silvertwinkie's Avatar
 
2004 25' Safari
. , Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,476
Having driven a hybrid electric car that runs on pure electricity until the battery is depleted, I can tell you that the question is not a matter of if, but when. I have about 70k miles over the course of 7 years with zero battery degradation so far. The tech many not be fully matured, but it's gaining traction.


Railroads have been using diesel/electric for decades. Those monster locomotive diesel engines are not directly connected to the drive wheels in many cases. It's an diesel engine connected to a generator that provides power to the drive wheels.



I get the same arguments that the electric cars are not any cleaner than gas cars due to the loose belief that the energy created is generated from fossil fuels. This is a generalization at best and not 100% true in all areas. Moreover, electric motors are light years more efficient than any internal combustion engine found in today's cars and trucks. Internal combustion can only get better with the assistance of electric propulsion. We have squeezed almost as much efficiency as we can out of ICE (internal combustion engines).



One thing to note, that even if it were 100% true that electric cars are just as dirty as ICE cars, I would rather give my money to the domestic producers of fossil fuels than hand over $100+ per fill up to countries that really don't like us around, that we are helping build up their economies (and their military) with every fill up.



Lastly, after the charging and logistical things are solved, an electric vehicle (whatever flavor) is the only vehicle that will actually get cleaner over time due to the fact that as the electrical grid CONTINUES to clean up, there will be even cleaner power sources to fuel the electric vehicles.
__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
Silvertwinkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 02:48 PM   #32
4 Rivet Member
 
2019 30' Classic
Belen , New Mexico
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 406
If only someone had developed electric motors that would fit in the wheels of the vehicle. Then all you would need is a generator where your transmission used to fit. You would then get the best of both worlds... Efficiency of the fuel source (diesel engine) and the torque profile of the electric motor.. Oh wait...

R. G. LeTourneau

Full disclosure - I'm an alumni of LeTourneau University with degrees in Metallurgy and Electrical Engineering.
Ephraim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 03:44 PM   #33
Rivet Master

 
2007 22' International CCD
Corona , California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 8,890
And we thought diesels had torque

LeTourneau was a very interesting guy. Is his company still in business?

No hydraulics anywhere in his construction equipment was a main characteristic. Unusual stuff but apparently quite reliable.
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
rmkrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 03:52 PM   #34
CLOUDSPLITTER "Tahawus"
 
ROBERT CROSS's Avatar

 
2003 25' Classic
Zanadude Nebula , Milky Way
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,154
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by John&Vicki View Post
OK, this is typically where a thread wanders off topic (I’m totally guilty!). But this topic is too interesting to let it go off the rails.

Beer Runner makes a good point - how is highway construction going to be funded when gasoline sales start dwindling? There’s going to have to be another funding mechanism. Perhaps some sort of mileage tax on vehicles? With today’s technology it would be possible for tax agencies to monitor things digitally and remotely. Which sends shivers down my spine.

As I mentioned, there are so many complexities to this issue.
"The man" already knows the exact position & time of your 'connected' vehicle every time the drivers door is opened...taxing how many miles you have traveled on state or federal highways...no problem.👍

Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
Tahawus

Love for the Adirondacks

"It is more wiser to ponder all things with diligent suspicion, than follow with blind assumption."
RLC
ROBERT CROSS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 03:56 PM   #35
Rivet Master
 
2019 27' International
Western NC , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 859
Images: 1
Blog Entries: 1
Ok it’s a given that electric motors produce huge amounts of torque from the get go. There is a reason all rail locomotives are diesel electric. The diesel is a huge generator the electric motors run the drive wheels.

Issue with battery powered eVs is range and charge cycle. Around town you can live with the trade offs on the road it gets harder. Independent of range best numbers I’ve seen for an 80% charge is 20 minutes give or take. Gets you 2-300 miles of range or so. Compare that to any gas/diesel vehicle where a fill up takes about 5 to max 10 minutes and gets you 400 miles or so. When you’re covering distance that matters.

And if the eV is under high load (speed/load) range is significantly decreased.

The future will be neither of the above IMHO most likely fuel cells which should offer the best of both no pollution with good range and refill. Unfortunately technology not ready for prime time.
__________________
2019 International Serenity 27 FBQ “TC Escape”

2019 Ford F-350 Platinum
JonDNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 04:08 PM   #36
4 Rivet Member
 
2019 30' Classic
Belen , New Mexico
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmkrum View Post
LeTourneau was a very interesting guy. Is his company still in business?

No hydraulics anywhere in his construction equipment was a main characteristic. Unusual stuff but apparently quite reliable.
Sold to Marathon Oil. When I attended the University in the 80s, Marathon was still hiring students for internships. They used to be right across the street. Don't know if that facility is still there or not. At the time, it was known as Marathon LeTourneau.
Ephraim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 05:33 PM   #37
Rivet Master
 
DavidsonOverlander's Avatar

 
1964 26' Overlander
1974 31' Sovereign
Milton , ON
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,163
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy59 View Post
Everything pollutes. Cost per mile is what I care about.

PS I tow with a diesel
The problem with cost per mile is that it only considers your personal cost, then again, maybe that's all you care about. ICEs have an additional cost in terms of health problems caused by air pollution and carbon emissions which are causing climate change. Electric vehicles are not without environmental costs for battery production.
__________________
1974 Sovereign
2005 F-350 SRW 4x4 crew cab long box
TAC ON-5

1965 Avion C-10 Truck Camper (65avion.home.blog)
DavidsonOverlander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 05:46 PM   #38
Rivet Master
 
DavidsonOverlander's Avatar

 
1964 26' Overlander
1974 31' Sovereign
Milton , ON
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,163
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonDNC View Post
Issue with battery powered eVs is range and charge cycle. Around town you can live with the trade offs on the road it gets harder. Independent of range best numbers I’ve seen for an 80% charge is 20 minutes give or take. Gets you 2-300 miles of range or so. Compare that to any gas/diesel vehicle where a fill up takes about 5 to max 10 minutes and gets you 400 miles or so. When you’re covering distance that matters.

And if the eV is under high load (speed/load) range is significantly decreased.

The future will be neither of the above IMHO most likely fuel cells which should offer the best of both no pollution with good range and refill. Unfortunately technology not ready for prime time.
I agree that the future will likely see us use a variety of fuel types depending on the need. Many people will be willing to switch to electric despite the inconvenience of charging times because they would rather have a lower impact on the environment. Carbon taxes may also affect this as the cost of driving ICE vehicles increases. As the cost of fuel gets high enough and charging stations improve there will be a point where it will just make more sense to make the switch to other fuels.

My father used to say "for change to take place a lot of old people need to die". He wasn't advocating for murder! Just that change inevitably takes place over time as one generation is replaced by the next. Younger people are far more likely to support government programs that limit greenhouse gas emissions.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2019-07-24 at 7.45.14 PM.png
Views:	32
Size:	49.4 KB
ID:	347514  
__________________
1974 Sovereign
2005 F-350 SRW 4x4 crew cab long box
TAC ON-5

1965 Avion C-10 Truck Camper (65avion.home.blog)
DavidsonOverlander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 06:53 PM   #39
2 Rivet Member
 
Runs_4_beer's Avatar
 
2019 25' International
Reno , NV
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonDNC View Post
Ok it’s a given that electric motors produce huge amounts of torque from the get go. There is a reason all rail locomotives are diesel electric. The diesel is a huge generator the electric motors run the drive wheels.

Issue with battery powered eVs is range and charge cycle. Around town you can live with the trade offs on the road it gets harder. Independent of range best numbers I’ve seen for an 80% charge is 20 minutes give or take. Gets you 2-300 miles of range or so. Compare that to any gas/diesel vehicle where a fill up takes about 5 to max 10 minutes and gets you 400 miles or so. When you’re covering distance that matters.

And if the eV is under high load (speed/load) range is significantly decreased.

The future will be neither of the above IMHO most likely fuel cells which should offer the best of both no pollution with good range and refill. Unfortunately technology not ready for prime time.
EV's will require you to think differently about long-distance travel. Battery technology and charging will improve. We have already seen huge advancements in just the past few year. But even with current technology, I'm ok to stop every 200 miles or so if it means it costs a fraction to fill up and I'm not burning though old dinosaur bones. This "inconvenience" will only be for the few times of year I travel with the trailer. The other 80-90% of the time I drive, an EV is perfect.

I just told my wife the other day that I think fuel cells will be the future too. But that technology is probably 10 years away or more. So I fully agree that the future will be some combo of things, but no more gas or diesel.
Runs_4_beer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2019, 09:00 PM   #40
Rivet Master
 
2012 19' International
Southeastern MI , Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by John&Vicki View Post
OK, this is typically where a thread wanders off topic (I’m totally guilty!). But this topic is too interesting to let it go off the rails.

Beer Runner makes a good point - how is highway construction going to be funded when gasoline sales start dwindling? There’s going to have to be another funding mechanism. Perhaps some sort of mileage tax on vehicles? With today’s technology it would be possible for tax agencies to monitor things digitally and remotely. Which sends shivers down my spine.

As I mentioned, there are so many complexities to this issue.
Tax vehicles by mileage, monitor with a transponder and collect with a debit. Add a surcharge for people who drive like crap. They can monitor me all they want. I’m a boring driver.

Careful what you wish for. In the quest to punish 2% of vehicles on the road that are electric you might shoot yourself in the foot.
Countryboy59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To Torque or Not to Torque bella_intl Wheels, Hubs & Bearings 50 08-31-2017 05:26 AM
Just when we thought we had it figured out...! cheetah1 Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 9 09-20-2014 09:10 AM
Thought I Had Seen It All....But Not This!!! Airhog1 Off Topic Forum 27 09-15-2008 10:21 PM
and you thought you had a motorhome! Excella CM Classic Motorhomes 3 12-29-2007 05:42 PM
Wow, thought I had been "kicked out" :) Kistler Forum Admin, News and Member Account Info 4 08-26-2006 06:13 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.