Mistrust of the pink stuff confirmed?

[Spartanguy]

Today confirmed my deep mistrust of RV antifreeze. I put two jugs out last night because I knew a neighbor was bringing me over a Christmas plate and just sat the unopened jugs out on a spot of my sidewalk to alert of the ice on the concrete walkway, today I go out and the jug is partially frozen.

I promise I tampered with the solution in no way and removed the seal just today. As frozen inside as a slushy from 7-Eleven. It got down to 12 degrees last night, not -50 btw. Bottle was full, poured some out on my ice spot (not sure if that’s kosher or not, but not the topic at hand either way)

Thoughts anyone?

Merry Christmas,

SpartanGuy

[Kevin245]

My experience with RV Antifreeze has been that it turns slushy, but doesn’t freeze solid. Of course we live in the South too.

[OTRA15]

Correct IMO . . . as long as it is not diluted it does not expand when it goes below 32F, as does water.

Fill a small plastic bottle absolutely full with RV antifreeze, cap it, and stick it in the freezer. It should not change shape as it gets cold.

The ice cubes in an old-fashioned compartmentalized ice cube freezer tray are domed up in the center for a reason . . .

[richard5933]

The more accurate name for this stuff is not anti-freeze, it is anti-burst.

I went through this a few years ago with our first RV, even contacting the company that makes the pink stuff.

Water will expand as it freezes. The expansion inside the confines of plumbing is what causes the damage. The pink stuff will indeed freeze, but it will not expand until it gets colder than the set point. I use the stuff which is rated to -75F, meaning that it will not expand until it reaches -75F.

All of this is much different from engine antifreeze, which is intended to actually keep the liquid inside the cooling system in its liquid state. This makes it possible to start an engine in sub-freezing weather as the liquid in the system will still flow.

While it it is not possible to run the water pump in an RV when the pink stuff is in the solid (frozen) state, it will not cause damage to the plumbing.

[Spartanguy]

Originally Posted by richard5933

The more accurate name for this stuff is not anti-freeze, it is anti-burst.

I went through this a few years ago with our first RV, even contacting the company that makes the pink stuff.

Water will expand as it freezes. The expansion inside the confines of plumbing is what causes the damage. The pink stuff will indeed freeze, but it will not expand until it gets colder than the set point. I use the stuff which is rated to -75F, meaning that it will not expand until it reaches -75F.

All of this is much different from engine antifreeze, which is intended to actually keep the liquid inside the cooling system in its liquid state. This makes it possible to start an engine in sub-freezing weather as the liquid in the system will still flow.

While it it is not possible to run the water pump in an RV when the pink stuff is in the solid (frozen) state, it will not cause damage to the plumbing.

My dad just explained this exactly like you have to me on the phone. Makes sense.
Still uneasy though. My last SOB literally had the faucet break in half after a cold spell, I’m still gun shy about it

[waninae39]

anti antifreeze can become solid. it all depends on what is in the solution
look at the label to see what the solution is rated to

up here we can buy Anti-freeze that is good to -20C, -30c and -45C
it all depends on what and where you are going to use it

as antifreeze comes close to is liquid -> solid transition point, its gets slushy.
it takes A LOT of energy to go from liquid to solid
for example- pure water
it takes 100X the amount of energy to go from 1C(33F) to -1C(31F)
than from 100C(212F) to 1C (33F)

so unless you expected sustained VERY cold temp, don't worry

[BayouBiker]

Interesting and descriptive theories but from a physical chemistry viewpoint, not particularly accurate. Propylene Glycol in water as the solvent is an antifreeze. It does dramatically reduce the freezing point of the solution. However propylene glycol, like many other water solutes does not form hydrate crystals so much of the water will begin to freeze progressively beginning at 32 F to form slushy ice crystals which increase the concentration of glycol and further reduces the final freezing point. As the slush forms the total volume of the now mixture (part solution, part pure ice) does expand so it is incorrect to describe this as anti-burst, but because it is still larglely a liquid and continues to have low surface tension the expansion can take place in a way that some of the mixture pushes out. This is why faucets are left open (you do leave the faucets open right?).

Anyway propylene glycol is used even though it has this annoying behavior because it does not metabolize to formaldehyde in your liver like ethylene glycol or rubbing alcohol and it does not permeate into plastics and rubbers like ethanol (grain spirits) does, and then come back out with nasty aftertastes the other popular food grade antifreeze.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Interesting and descriptive theories but from a physical chemistry viewpoint, not particularly accurate. Propylene Glycol in water as the solvent is an antifreeze. It does dramatically reduce the freezing point of the solution. However propylene glycol, like many other water solutes does not form hydrate crystals so much of the water will begin to freeze progressively beginning at 32 F to form slushy ice crystals which increase the concentration of glycol and further reduces the final freezing point. As the slush forms the total volume of the now mixture (part solution, part pure ice) does expand so it is incorrect to describe this as anti-burst, but because it is still larglely a liquid and continues to have low surface tension the expansion can take place in a way that some of the mixture pushes out. This is why faucets are left open (you do leave the faucets open right?).

Anyway propylene glycol is used even though it has this annoying behavior because it does not metabolize to formaldehyde in your liver like ethylene glycol or rubbing alcohol and it does not permeate into plastics and rubbers like ethanol (grain spirits) does, and then come back out with nasty aftertastes the other popular food grade antifreeze.

I cannot say with certainty whether you are correct or not, but this does not agree with what the manufacturer I contacted said.

Do a test yourself... Put a sealed jug full of the pink stuff outside into the sub zero temps and see if/how much it will expand.

When I did this it froze but the bottle was not expanded.

[BayouBiker]

Fair enough, I suspect you didn't talk with one of their physical chemists though.

Well to do a test, you'd have to use a ceramic or thick metal jug that won't expand. But I don't need to do a test, nor do you. I would imagine most here would agree the slush is ice not solidified glycol (which would sink) and that it is suspended and floating, certainly not settling and compacting on the bottom. Since it is floating it must be less dense than the liquid and therefore takes up more volume. You could also search online for Propylene Glycol slush and you'd probably get some explanations about solutions and freezing physics.

Finally realize that ice is only 8% greater in volume than water, the amount of slush at 32 is 0% and at -25 about 30% so at 10 F expansion would be maybe 1% which would be difficult to measure or detect.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Yep...With our method air doesn't expand when it freezes.🤓
The slush fluid is only used in the traps for 'Cloudsplitter'.

Bob
🇺🇸

[kittmaster]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Yep...With our method air doesn't expand when it freezes.🤓
The slush fluid is only used in the traps for 'Cloudsplitter'.

Bob
🇺🇸

Exactly what I do to.

[bweybright]

So my only request of you air only guys is when you post you clearly state what cfm and psi and for how you long you are running it at the fully rated cfm and psi to clear your lines without over pressuring and blowing things out. Otherwise you are really not helping newbies out by simply stating you just use air. When in fact you are setting them up for failure without the details. You may have done this on past posts, but when posting on new ones I think repeating for the new ones just reading repetition could be good.

Oh, and that you need to be darn well sure the air compressor is a compressor on food grade oil, or an oil free compressor!!!! Don't see the air only folks mentioning that much for the newbies over the years.

The devil is in the details, which for some reason you air only guys seem to leave out every time you post when the pink stuff question comes up.
Just thinking that we need to be clear of details in our posts, which I am working on being better at.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Yep...With our method air doesn't expand when it freezes.��
The slush fluid is only used in the traps for 'Cloudsplitter'.

Bob
����

Bingo!

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by bweybright

So my only request of you air only guys is when you post you clearly state what cfm and psi and for how you long you are running it at the fully rated cfm and psi to clear your lines without over pressuring and blowing things out. Otherwise you are really not helping newbies out by simply stating you just use air. When in fact you are setting them up for failure without the details. You may have done this on past posts, but when posting on new ones I think repeating for the new ones just reading repetition could be good.

Oh, and that you need to be darn well sure the air compressor is a compressor on food grade oil, or an oil free compressor!!!! Don't see the air only folks mentioning that much for the newbies over the years.

The devil is in the details, which for some reason you air only guys seem to leave out every time you post when the pink stuff question comes up.
Just thinking that we need to be clear of details in our posts, which I am working on being better at.

I dont know CFM, but 30 gallon compressor, 55psi, blow until very little mist comes out of faucet. Start at furthest faucet from city water inlet and work to nearest. Repeat at least twice.

[AKmtnpilot]

drain your tanks and lines and blow out with compressed air. Air doesn't freeze.

[ROBERT CROSS]

25gal oilless, 2 stage, set at 150psi, regulated to 45psi for as long as needed.
I also blow the WH and don't forget to open & blow the hose outlet connection.👍

Bob
🇺🇸

[dznf0g]

Single stage, 2 lunger, with oil and water separator.

[waninae39]

Just follow most of the AS document,
After draining your tanks and lines its best practice to blow it out with compressed air.
Then add the pink stuff to any traps and the toilet.

[kittmaster]

Originally Posted by bweybright

So my only request of you air only guys is when you post you clearly state what cfm and psi and for how you long you are running it at the fully rated cfm and psi to clear your lines without over pressuring and blowing things out. Otherwise you are really not helping newbies out by simply stating you just use air. When in fact you are setting them up for failure without the details. You may have done this on past posts, but when posting on new ones I think repeating for the new ones just reading repetition could be good.

Oh, and that you need to be darn well sure the air compressor is a compressor on food grade oil, or an oil free compressor!!!! Don't see the air only folks mentioning that much for the newbies over the years.

The devil is in the details, which for some reason you air only guys seem to leave out every time you post when the pink stuff question comes up.
Just thinking that we need to be clear of details in our posts, which I am working on being better at.

While I appreciate your "insight" for the noobs, the original topic about the pink material freezing morphed into others describing other ways of doing things and myself chiming that I do the same.....basically off the original topic.....your assertion of everyone having to write a novel explaining the methods seems a bit over reaching as it would get lost in the mix. There is an entire section of the site that deals with winterizing your Airstream....you really think adding a book here of every technical detail of using the air method is warranted here? I would politely have to disagree.

But for the record, since the water inlet regulates to 50 PSI for all inside plumbing; I set my Craftmans 40 gallon single stage 120V 15A compressor using quick fittings to water inlet adapter to 65PSI delivering 5.5 CFM and open each water vessel including the outdoor shower one at a time until all I hear is air coming out of each. I turn on the water pump to ensure that is blown out....all the tanks are drained and 1 gallon of pink stuff added to each tank and the drains and leave a pool in the toilet bowl to keep the seals wet. I ensure that ONLY air comes out of each device and there is no MIST still present ensuring the lines are dry. I also remove the drain plug in the water heater to ensure it is empty....and then put it in bypass mode including using a wet-vac to pull out any water the air runs around. This method takes a good 2 hours or so. Pretty sure that covers it.

That method works well for us.

[journeydog]

If you want a slow death for your pet or wildlife, make sure you use propylene glycol (auto-type antifreeze) rather than pink RV antifreeze. The animals and birds love it because it's like Margaritaville to them. It taste sweet and yummy. Their kidneys won't fail for a few days and then, they just roll over and die.