Mistrust of the pink stuff confirmed?

[lsbrodsky]

Yeah, this thread is a classic example of how we all waste our time. Rephrased it asks, should I trust that the pink stuff will do what it says, despite the fact that it has been used that way for decades?

Larry

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Spartanguy

These people make my head hurt, it’s like ego schizophrenia winter wonderland. I’ll just keep my heat on, keep my P4 line out of the drip tray...and keep camping in the snow

While you're staying warm and cozy, you might contemplate if asking others for their thoughts is healthy for you, given that proper answers they offer make your head hurt.

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi



Fortunately you don't *need* to get 100% of the water out of the system. That's why the factory only uses blow out and recommends customers only use it as well.



Once you are to the point that the water in the system fills only a small part of the cross section of a circular pipe, there is no risk. When it goes solid it will not fracture the pipe. It just will pop up from the bottom. A lot of ice cube trays work this way if you need a demonstration.



What you very much do *not* want is a faucet or fitting filled with water. That will indeed be a problem. The same thing is true of a hot water heater with water in it.



Even if you do use pink stuff, the hot water heater normally just gets a drain / blow out and shut down. That's what the manufacturer recommends, that's what a whole lot of people do. Properly done, it works.



Bob

When my trailer was delivered brand spanking new it most certainly did have RV Antifreeze in it, did you buy yours new? And my manual doesn’t state that you can only use one method of winterizing.

[panamerican]

Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet

When my trailer was delivered brand spanking new it most certainly did have RV Antifreeze in it, did you buy yours new? And my manual doesn’t state that you can only use one method of winterizing.

For over 25 years, I have used the air method with adding -50F anti-burst to the sink and shower p-traps.

Yes, the dealer does put the pink stuff in at delivery, however there are 2 ways to winterize, air or the pink stuff. In the end it's your call what you do. I just know I use far less pink stuff using the compressor and blowing out the lines. Neither method is bad, using air is my personal choice.

Don't need to make the water heater bone dry either. There too, just need to get most of the water out. In over 25 years, never had a cracked tank (non on demand style heater).

I do agree, we've taken a very basic annual function for the northern climate folks and turned it in to a Chevy vs Ford convo. It's not rocket science.

[FishByFly]

My F250 sure pulls my trailer a bunch better when I use the pink antifreeze especially when I don’t bypass the hot water tank. The added tongue weight helps my Hensley hitch setup. I find that when I just use the air compressor in the waterlines, there is just too much uplift and I have to compensate by deflating my marathon tires from 120 psi to 25 psi.

Seriously, it wasn’t until we moved to the Chicagoland area did I blow out the lines AND use antifreeze. In 2014 during the polar vortex, we went 23 days straight with temps that didn’t go above freezing. In the 2015 polar vortex, we had 30 hours where the temps didn’t get above -0f. After those two winters, I decided not to deviate from what worked for me.

[B. Cole]

Originally Posted by panamerican

For over 25 years, I have used the air method with adding -50F anti-burst to the sink and shower p-traps.

Yes, the dealer does put the pink stuff in at delivery, however there are 2 ways to winterize, air or the pink stuff. In the end it's your call what you do. I just know I use far less pink stuff using the compressor and blowing out the lines. Neither method is bad, using air is my personal choice.

Don't need to make the water heater bone dry either. There too, just need to get most of the water out. In over 25 years, never had a cracked tank (non on demand style heater).

I do agree, we've taken a very basic annual function for the northern climate folks and turned it in to a Chevy vs Ford convo. It's not rocket science.

Thanks PanAm! I wondered when this would get there.
Friends don't let friends buy Ford's 😃

[B. Cole]

Originally Posted by FishByFly

My F250 sure pulls my trailer a bunch better when I use the pink antifreeze especially when I don’t bypass the hot water tank. The added tongue weight helps my Hensley hitch setup. I find that when I just use the air compressor in the waterlines, there is just too much uplift and I have to compensate by deflating my marathon tires from 120 psi to 25 psi.

Seriously, it wasn’t until we moved to the Chicagoland area did I blow out the lines AND use antifreeze. In 2014 during the polar vortex, we went 23 days straight with temps that didn’t go above freezing. In the 2015 polar vortex, we had 30 hours where the temps didn’t get above -0f. After those two winters, I decided not to deviate from what worked for me.

Those Marathons run better at 20, how long have you had them on yer 250??😃 Oh, dry or wet fly??

[FishByFly]

Originally Posted by B. Cole

Those Marathons run better at 20, how long have you had them on yer 250?? Oh, dry or wet fly??

I hold my tires for a good ten years in a sunny place before ever using them. I want to make sure the tires cure and off gas. When they start showing signs of cracking, then they are good to start to use them.

Now to more serious subjects, many occasions call for a tandem dry / dropper rig.

[mkveseth]

You have to add it to water for it to work.

[wanatrail]

10 degree overnight and no problems open container with antifreeze in it catching the fill up of lines and not frozen. Even if 'slushy' it is better than frozen expanding water in the lines and fittings. Pink is good.

[John & Roberta]

SpartanGuy, you set your “pink stuff” jugs down on a heaven-facing radiator, your concrete sidewalk. Think black ice.

On clear, still nights, in the wee hours, flat horizontal surfaces reach lowest temperatures of the day as the heat RADIATED to the thermally COLD heavens is not CONVECTED or CONDUCTED back at the same rate lost. Thus, with air temperature no lower than 42 degrees Fahrenheit, the ancients were able to freeze 3 inches of water in a shallow trench on the north side of an East-West running wall.

Your jugs were chilled to a temperature much lower than the night air by contact with a freezing sidewalk. With any moisture at all, the roof of your car—and your roof itself—would be covered with frost. (But not the sides of your car . . . as the sides of your car are not facing cold heavens but facing equally warm objects.)

So, to fairly test your pink stuff, place the jug up off the ground and under an overhang. I think you will find it still liquid in the morning.

[Gene]

From time to time people complain about the pink stuff, usually about the aftertaste. It may be the cheapest bottles of pink stuff do have a taste, but I’ve used a variety of brands and never noticed a taste. Maybe flushing out the lines in the spring needs to be more thorough to get rid of the taste. I would think flushing with a chlorine solution and then flushing that with clean water at least twice would remove the antifreeze taste. Another clean water flush is usually necessary to get rid of the chlorine taste.

I blow out the lines until most of the mist disappears. I do so at 60 psi because that is standard city water pressure. That you may get lower or higher pressure at your house is probable. 60 is only an uncommon standard. Then I pump pink stuff through the pipes, but not the water tank or water heater. So long as you get all the water out of the heater except for the gallon or so at the bottom, it will not freeze. It is made that way. I think it is good to flush all the water out of the heater in the spring to get debris out of the bottom, but it is hard to do. The water tank does not need antifreeze because once emptied there is little in it to freeze. Pouring a cup of liquid in may keep the drain valve seal more flexible if there is one. There are commercial liquids available to keep all such valve seals in good shape. We have used them sometimes, but never had a problem either way.

While keeping all the faucets open may be helpful, I am unsure if I have left them open every winter. Nevertheless, I haven’t had any problems. Since our first RV, we have done this the same way. Temperatures some winters have dropped below —20 F. You can’t leave the toilet valve open and I did have it freeze the first winter when I didn’t think of running antifreeze through it. Same for the kitchen sprayer. The little bit of water left in the lines will migrate downhill and sometimes pool in a low point. I think a poor job of blowing out the lines would be necessary for enough water to collect to blow a pipe, but don’t want to find out by doing a bad job.

I understand that draining the pink stuff after running it through the lines would probably clear all the water out, it seems to be similar to leaving it there all winter. It was stated above water expands 8% when it freezes, but I have always read the expansion is 11%.

The first times I winterized and summarized I was nervous about doing it right. The consequences of not doing it right are not good. As I said, I didn’t do it right for getting about the toilet valve and the kitchen sprayer. Since everything has been fine. You’ll figure it out and move on.

[napabill]

Originally Posted by journeydog

If you want a slow death for your pet or wildlife, make sure you use propylene glycol (auto-type antifreeze) rather than pink RV antifreeze. The animals and birds love it because it's like Margaritaville to them. It taste sweet and yummy. Their kidneys won't fail for a few days and then, they just roll over and die.

You have it backward. Auto-type antifreeze is Ethylene Glycol, which is extremely poisonous and sweet. Propylene Glycol is food-grade.

I used to work in a champagne winery where we had to freeze the necks of the bottles in order to expel the dead yeast. Before I changed to a machine using Propylene Glycol we used salt brine. Both are food grade but Propylene Glycol is a lot less corrosive and is approved by the FDA for human food production uses.

BTW, Evans Waterless Coolant in Propylene Glycol with some lubricants added for the water pump.

[taos]

I learned in the 70's that pure antifreeze will freeze without some water added.....

[ronreeder]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Interesting and descriptive theories but from a physical chemistry viewpoint, not particularly accurate. Propylene Glycol in water as the solvent is an antifreeze. It does dramatically reduce the freezing point of the solution. However propylene glycol, like many other water solutes does not form hydrate crystals so much of the water will begin to freeze progressively beginning at 32 F to form slushy ice crystals which increase the concentration of glycol and further reduces the final freezing point. As the slush forms the total volume of the now mixture (part solution, part pure ice) does expand so it is incorrect to describe this as anti-burst, but because it is still larglely a liquid and continues to have low surface tension the expansion can take place in a way that some of the mixture pushes out. This is why faucets are left open (you do leave the faucets open right?).

Anyway propylene glycol is used even though it has this annoying behavior because it does not metabolize to formaldehyde in your liver like ethylene glycol or rubbing alcohol and it does not permeate into plastics and rubbers like ethanol (grain spirits) does, and then come back out with nasty aftertastes the other popular food grade antifreeze.

(what did he say?)

[bartzstream2]

Originally Posted by Spartanguy

Today confirmed my deep mistrust of RV antifreeze. I put two jugs out last night because I knew a neighbor was bringing me over a Christmas plate and just sat the unopened jugs out on a spot of my sidewalk to alert of the ice on the concrete walkway, today I go out and the jug is partially frozen.

I promise I tampered with the solution in no way and removed the seal just today. As frozen inside as a slushy from 7-Eleven. It got down to 12 degrees last night, not -50 btw. Bottle was full, poured some out on my ice spot (not sure if that’s kosher or not, but not the topic at hand either way)

Thoughts anyone?

Merry Chris

SpartanGuy

Attachment 385464
Attachment 385465
Attachment 385466

It will freeze but it DOES NOT EXPAND. That is what protects the plumbing

[BayouBiker]

I said the pink stuff is effective antifreeze, don't let the slush scare you away, anyone who says different is wrong.

[ronreeder]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

I said the pink stuff is effective antifreeze, don't let the slush scare you away, anyone who says different is wrong.

AHA! I guessed correctly!

I might respectfully add that anyone who says wrong, is different.

[ronreeder]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

Yeah, this thread is a classic example of how we all waste our time. Rephrased it asks, should I trust that the pink stuff will do what it says, despite the fact that it has been used that way for decades?

Larry

I fully agree with Larry! And I applaud him for making the sacrifice of time wasted to voice his valuable opinion.

You tell 'em!

[ronreeder]

Originally Posted by John & Roberta

SpartanGuy, you set your “pink stuff” jugs down on a heaven-facing radiator, your concrete sidewalk. Think black ice.

On clear, still nights, in the wee hours, flat horizontal surfaces reach lowest temperatures of the day as the heat RADIATED to the thermally COLD heavens is not CONVECTED or CONDUCTED back at the same rate lost. Thus, with air temperature no lower than 42 degrees Fahrenheit, the ancients were able to freeze 3 inches of water in a shallow trench on the north side of an East-West running wall.

Your jugs were chilled to a temperature much lower than the night air by contact with a freezing sidewalk. With any moisture at all, the roof of your car—and your roof itself—would be covered with frost. (But not the sides of your car . . . as the sides of your car are not facing cold heavens but facing equally warm objects.)

So, to fairly test your pink stuff, place the jug up off the ground and under an overhang. I think you will find it still liquid in the morning.

YO! BIKER! Help us explain that the concrete, due to chemicals within the concrete, plus the science of geothermal energy from ground contact, actually makes the temperature of the concrete warmer than freezing air, and even more so, if solar energy is in contact with the concrete surface.

We Bikers need to hang together, and share our enlightenment.