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Old 12-26-2020, 11:05 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by bweybright View Post
So my only request of you air only guys is when you post you clearly state what cfm and psi and for how you long you are running it at the fully rated cfm and psi to clear your lines without over pressuring and blowing things out. Otherwise you are really not helping newbies out by simply stating you just use air. When in fact you are setting them up for failure without the details. You may have done this on past posts, but when posting on new ones I think repeating for the new ones just reading repetition could be good.

Oh, and that you need to be darn well sure the air compressor is a compressor on food grade oil, or an oil free compressor!!!! Don't see the air only folks mentioning that much for the newbies over the years.

The devil is in the details, which for some reason you air only guys seem to leave out every time you post when the pink stuff question comes up.
Just thinking that we need to be clear of details in our posts, which I am working on being better at.
Hi

If you have a compressor that can *deliver* 200 CFM of flow and maintain 60PSI while doing it, then use it. Indeed that would be one *very* large compressor. If you look at the flow vs pressure curves on most home ( = 120V) compressors they deliver way less than that *at* pressure.

Before you go to crazy over the numbers above. A large scale factory air system probably *is* up in the range mentioned or above that. What gets delivered here or there will depend on how it's piped.

For the rest of the world that does not wire their compressor to three phase power, 60 PSI is fine for the pipes heater, and faucets in your trailer. Set your regulator to 60PSI. If you somehow are pressurizing the fresh water tank, set it to something lower.

Past that, use whatever CFM you have. More is most certainly better. Pressurizing a big tank is about the only way a home setup will deliver more than a little bit of air. Even with a tank, it'll only deliver it in bursts as you empty the tank. How many CFM comes out as the tank empties? That depends ....

If you have a 30 gallon tank on your compressor that's just over 3 cubic feet. If the tank is at 120 PSI and your regulator is at 60, let's say you double that at the regulator output. If you dump that 6 cubic feet in a minute, you ran 6 CFM out of the regulator.

By the time you get to the end of the hose and feed an pipe with an open faucet, the pressure probably is down to near atmosphere. You may be up to 24 CFM running in the pipe for a short while.

Drop back to a 1 gallon tank and everything scales be 30:1. That's for sustained flow over an entire minute. Peak flow still is up there.

If you pressurize the hose and pipe (by closing the faucet) then the capacity of that hose and pipe need to be known to put them into the math. With a pressurized pipe, the initial "burst" flow will be much higher than what's shown above.

Fun !!

Bob
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Old 12-26-2020, 11:43 AM   #22
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Pink RV anti freeze, been using it at camp for over 20 years, have seen 25 below F. Never an issue.
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Old 12-26-2020, 01:29 PM   #23
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From the manufacturer:
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Old 12-26-2020, 02:17 PM   #24
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Hah! you think facts will straighten out this argument? Fat chance.
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Old 12-26-2020, 03:24 PM   #25
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It’s impossible to know 100 percent if all water is removed from supply lines. Therefore RV Antifreeze is needed.
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Old 12-26-2020, 06:25 PM   #26
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It's a nice marketing video, mostly accurate for what it says, but void of any physical chemistry.

The full definition of freeze is to congeal into a solid. A slush is not solid, it is technically not frozen, rather it is a mixture of small ice crystals and propylene glycol solution. As more slush forms, the solution's low surface tension and low sheer strength allows the mixture to flow out of rigid enclosures and remain harmless. Their product is antifreeze and of course it provides burst protection down to -50 below which the liquid portion undergoes a phase change and forms a solid structure depending on initial glycol concentration.

All effective antifreezes depress the water solvent freezing point (the temperature at which the the liquid portion undergoes a phase change into a solid crystalline structure. Meat is said to freeze and it does. The liquid portion undergoes a phase change and the whole thing becomes a solid block.

The purpose of antifreeze is to prevent a rigid enclosure from bursting due to expansion when water freezes. Thus antifreeze is "burst protection". Some antifreezes form slush and some don't, but to claim antifreeze is not antifreeze is simply clever marketing.

So what is the takeaway? If you use propylene Glycol antifreeze, be sure to keep the faucets and block valves open.
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Old 12-26-2020, 06:46 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet View Post
It’s impossible to know 100 percent if all water is removed from supply lines. Therefore RV Antifreeze is needed.
Impossible for sure...but you don't need to remove 100% of the water. Just enough to keep the ice expansion from bursting the lines, therefore filling the all the lines with AF is not needed.🤓

Compromise...pump two gallons thru, then blow it out.

Bob
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Old 12-26-2020, 06:53 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Impossible for sure...but you don't need to remove 100% of the water. Just enough to keep the ice expansion from bursting the lines, therefore filling the all the lines with AF is not needed.



Compromise...pump two gallons thru, then blow it out.



Bob

In my experience the problem is being able to crawl inside every nook and cranny to make sure that 'enough' of the water is gone.

The problem is magnified if there are any low spots where there shouldn't be any, such as a sagging line or a valve which has moved out of place.

In the end, it all depends on how much risk you are willing to take.
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Old 12-27-2020, 07:29 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet View Post
It’s impossible to know 100 percent if all water is removed from supply lines. Therefore RV Antifreeze is needed.
Hi

Fortunately you don't *need* to get 100% of the water out of the system. That's why the factory only uses blow out and recommends customers only use it as well.

Once you are to the point that the water in the system fills only a small part of the cross section of a circular pipe, there is no risk. When it goes solid it will not fracture the pipe. It just will pop up from the bottom. A lot of ice cube trays work this way if you need a demonstration.

What you very much do *not* want is a faucet or fitting filled with water. That will indeed be a problem. The same thing is true of a hot water heater with water in it.

Even if you do use pink stuff, the hot water heater normally just gets a drain / blow out and shut down. That's what the manufacturer recommends, that's what a whole lot of people do. Properly done, it works.

Bob
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Old 12-27-2020, 07:48 AM   #30
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The -50 advertised is the burst point , it would freeze at zero. I have been winterizing boat water systems with it for yeas. We see morning temps of - 20 and never had a problem but if the freezing at zero bothers you they also sell -100 and -200 in Propylene glycol. When I winterize my own travel trailer I blow down the lines were there then I run the any freeze through.
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Old 12-27-2020, 08:31 AM   #31
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I blow out my supply lines with air from city water inlet and use propylene glycol afterwards introduced through water pump inlet side. The first gush after opening a faucet hot or cold or toilet invariably has some water before pink is seen, that’s proof positive water lies somewhere in the lines after blowing air. Standard of care for me is as written. I also have my own some may consider unorthodox winterizing ritual like after emptying hot water heater I use a small plastic hose and syphon the remaining gallon that would otherwise remain in the heater, it may be unnecessary but that’s what I prefer to do.
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Old 12-27-2020, 08:50 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richard5933 View Post
In my experience the problem is being able to crawl inside every nook and cranny to make sure that 'enough' of the water is gone.

The problem is magnified if there are any low spots where there shouldn't be any, such as a sagging line or a valve which has moved out of place.

In the end, it all depends on how much risk you are willing to take.
I don't crawl anywhere, am risk averse, and still don't suck AF thru the water pump...34 Like Effect WNY Winters, SFSG....👍
“If you’re happy with what you’re doing…it’s adequate, if other people are unhappy….it’s NOT."
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Silver bullet...you're not alone, but I blow.😂

Bob
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Old 12-27-2020, 08:58 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet View Post
I blow out my supply lines with air from city water inlet and use propylene glycol afterwards introduced through water pump inlet side. The first gush after opening a faucet hot or cold or toilet invariably has some water before pink is seen, that’s proof positive water lies somewhere in the lines after blowing air. Standard of care for me is as written. I also have my own some may consider unorthodox winterizing ritual like after emptying hot water heater I use a small plastic hose and syphon the remaining gallon that would otherwise remain in the heater, it may be unnecessary but that’s what I prefer to do.
This right here is what I do, plus dump some pinky in the sinks and waste tanks
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Old 12-27-2020, 10:25 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Larry1492 View Post
The -50 advertised is the burst point , it would freeze at zero. I have been winterizing boat water systems with it for yeas. We see morning temps of - 20 and never had a problem but if the freezing at zero bothers you they also sell -100 and -200 in Propylene glycol. When I winterize my own travel trailer I blow down the lines were there then I run the any freeze through.
Again, let's be clear and accurate. At zero, the glycol solutions starts to transition to a mechanical suspension of ice and glycol solution. Mechanical suspensions are not solids and cannot be accurately described as frozen or even partially frozen. The fluid remains a suspension until it ultimately undergoes a phase change at -50 or so depending on initial concentration and at that point can accurately be described as freezing and frozen. While a suspension, the volume continues to slowly increase as solids are precipitated.
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Old 12-27-2020, 01:29 PM   #35
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Again, let's be clear and accurate. At zero, the glycol solutions starts to transition to a mechanical suspension of ice and glycol solution. Mechanical suspensions are not solids and cannot be accurately described as frozen or even partially frozen. The fluid remains a suspension until it ultimately undergoes a phase change at -50 or so depending on initial concentration and at that point can accurately be described as freezing and frozen. While a suspension, the volume continues to slowly increase as solids are precipitated.
As much as I appreciate accuracy, that may be just a tad too accurate for a conversation which started by talking about "pink stuff".
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Old 12-28-2020, 03:57 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by richard5933 View Post
As much as I appreciate accuracy, that may be just a tad too accurate for a conversation which started by talking about "pink stuff".


These people make my head hurt, it’s like ego schizophrenia winter wonderland. I’ll just keep my heat on, keep my P4 line out of the drip tray...and keep camping in the snow
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Old 12-28-2020, 06:44 AM   #37
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Don't Leave RV Antifreeze In The Plumbing!

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Originally Posted by Spartanguy View Post
Today confirmed my deep mistrust of RV antifreeze. I put two jugs out last night because I knew a neighbor was bringing me over a Christmas plate and just sat the unopened jugs out on a spot of my sidewalk to alert of the ice on the concrete walkway, today I go out and the jug is partially frozen.

...

Thoughts anyone?

SpartanGuy
When I use pink RV antifreeze I immediately drain it (and blow the lines) after pumping it through the system. There is no need to leave the antifreeze in the lines once it has done its job of displacing any residual traces of water.

This saves time in the spring when it is time to de-winterize the trailer and helps to prevent any lingering taste of the antifreeze in the plumbing, not to mention $$ savings.

You can also collect the antifreeze at the faucets and low point drains and put it into the sink and shower traps if you wish.
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Old 12-28-2020, 07:51 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Yep...With our method air doesn't expand when it freezes.🤓
The slush fluid is only used in the traps for 'Cloudsplitter'.

Bob
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Old 12-28-2020, 09:58 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet View Post
I blow out my supply lines with air from city water inlet and use propylene glycol afterwards introduced through water pump inlet side. The first gush after opening a faucet hot or cold or toilet invariably has some water before pink is seen, that’s proof positive water lies somewhere in the lines after blowing air. .....
Hi

How many hours do you spend blowing out each line? How many cycles do you do on each line? How big is your compressor?

The blow out process is *not* a "do it once and done" sort of thing. It takes a lot of time to do it.

Bob
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Old 12-28-2020, 11:19 AM   #40
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These threads are a fun read.Non mechanical people ask technical/ mechanical questions, and are stunned when they get a mechanics answer ��
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