Truck EV towing weights

[DrivingDan]

Disclaimer: This thread is purely to discuss technical details of towing an Airstream with one of the present (or announced) EV trucks. It is not a discussion about EV’s in general or other issues.

I’ll start with the Silverado EV as that’s what I’ve been looking at. As mentioned elsewhere I have a reservation for Summer ‘24 and would much prefer towing with this vehicles than alternatives, if at all possible. One of our early trips (the Airstream isn’t purchased yet) is to northern New Mexico from California, so I’ve means tested this trip with the vehicle. Specs

• 400mi/212 kWh battery
• 800V 350KW DCFC (charge in about 20 minutes)
• 10,000 lb towing capacity
• 1300 lb carrying capacity
• Assuming 25%-50% range loss (depending on road/speed/conditions) this gives a range of 150-180miles, which for us translates to a single charge during driving days, most of the time.

Running the numbers carefully on this trip, which basically runs from Southern California through Arizona with stops at the Grand Canyon/Petrified Forest and other places, turns out charging is absolutely not the problem. With todays infrastructure its covered with this range, Tesla is soon opening up their Supercharger network, and I looked at detail in the NEVI plans for those states. The issue appears to be down to hauling or carrying capacity.

Running the numbers on the above for us and the AS but leaves no room for baggage. We’re getting the back hatch option so can put, for example, bikes in the back of the Airstream during transport. Thoughts on this? I understand the flooring can be easily damaged.

If I could just get an extra 300 lbs off that tongue weight it would be perfect.

[richard5933]

Doesn't really sound like you're asking anything specific to this being an EV tow vehicle, but rather to this being a tow vehicle with limited cargo carrying capacity. The shorter range would be an issue for some, but apparently you're okay with it so for the present conversation it's a non-issue.

Right now all we know about your question is that a) your chosen tow vehicle has a 1,300-lb carrying capacity, and b) you'll be towing an unspecified Airstream with it.

That's not very much information to work with, and certainly not enough for anyone to give you any specific advice. There have been a number of recent threads about actual vs. spec tongue weight, weight reduction, etc. so I'd suggest you start with those threads.

Or, provide some more details of what that 1,300-lb capacity includes/doesn't include as well as what specific trailer you're planning to pull with it.

That all said, loading up the rear of a trailer in order to reduce tongue weight is a recipe for an unstable trailer. The rear hatch will certainly make loading larger items easier, but I'm not sure that you'll be able to safely use this method to drop 300 pounds off the tongue of any Airstream.

[DrivingDan]

Well until chemistries get higher energy density, I believe the persistent problem with the current generation will be in the hauling capacity. EV specific because with ICE the answer is the easy “get a bigger truck”, but with EV’s that won’t be an option for some years to come.

Specifically I’m looking for creative suggestions as to how I can work around the constraint. As mentioned we’re ordering a back hatch, so bikes can go there instead of the truck bed, any ideas on making that work safely would be welcome - just an example. Another could be to bring a second vehicle (undesirable), or tips on how to stuff your trailer with everything you need.

We’re planning on a 27 Flying Cloud with tongue weight of 857 I believe.

[richard5933]

Pretty much like many other threads with people wanting to tow an Airstream with a tow vehicle of limited capacity. The source of power is irrelevant to the question and I think might be a red herring.

Many tow vehicles have great sounding "tow capacity", meaning that they can pull a tremendous amount of weight. A common limitation however is how much they can carry, and that seems to be the case here.

My opinion is that the best way to tow using a tow vehicle of limited capacity is to get an appropriately sized Airstream.

[Daquenzer]

The main problem with EV's for towing isn't the pulling power. It is the range and the availability of chargers and how long it takes to charge them, and finally it is payload. You seem to have found the solution to the first. And I'm not saying you can't pull an AS with a 1300lb payload capacity. It is which AS are you talking about? Remember that most AS's in the 25' and up will typically be in that 800lb to 1000lb tongue weight. AND if the trailer weighs 7500 lbs after loading you want to make sure the there is about 750 to 800lbs on the tongue. And most would say probably a little more or you have a sway issue. Since you said a 27' AS, you can plan on a tongue weight of at least 900lbs.

I would suggest talking to Andy at CanAm in Vancouver if you are going that direction. He would be able to help you set up your trailer and tow vehicle. He puled an AS with a Tesla. But he also made significant alterations to the trailer to made it more aerodynamic. Because a big issue is wind drag when it comes to range.

Good luck.

[Dennis C]

I can give you a few opinions on the technical details of your post, given my experience as an EV owner.

First of all, the 400 mile range is a hypothetical range under ideal conditions. In the real world, it's likely to be something like 360 - 380 miles as your starting point.

Secondly, your route will take you over roads of various grades and elevations, which negatively impacts range. This could further reduce your starting point in terms of mileage.

Finally, I completely agree that the charging infrastructure has improved, but it's still lacking. This is especially true in rural areas for Level 3 DC Rapid Chargers. The availability of a charger that will give you 350 kW will be a challenge. There simply aren't that many out there. Most Level 3 chargers are in the neighborhood of 100 kW at this point in time. Additionally, some charging stations throttle back the charging speed in peak hours of usage. My point here is that you can't count on 20 minute charges because they will be few and far between at this point in time.

I think you've correctly identified the other technical challenge, which is payload capacity.

We're getting closer by the day to EV tow vehicles being a viable option for the masses. You can certainly make it work now, but it requires some compromises that many people aren't willing to make.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by DrivingDan

Disclaimer: This thread is purely to discuss technical details of towing an Airstream with one of the present (or announced) EV trucks. It is not a discussion about EV’s in general or other issues.

I’ll start with the Silverado EV as that’s what I’ve been looking at. As mentioned elsewhere I have a reservation for Summer ‘24 and would much prefer towing with this vehicles than alternatives, if at all possible. One of our early trips (the Airstream isn’t purchased yet) is to northern New Mexico from California, so I’ve means tested this trip with the vehicle. Specs

• 400mi/212 kWh battery
• 800V 350KW DCFC (charge in about 20 minutes)
• 10,000 lb towing capacity
• 1300 lb carrying capacity
• Assuming 25%-50% range loss (depending on road/speed/conditions) this gives a range of 150-180miles, which for us translates to a single charge during driving days, most of the time.

Running the numbers carefully on this trip, which basically runs from Southern California through Arizona with stops at the Grand Canyon/Petrified Forest and other places, turns out charging is absolutely not the problem. With todays infrastructure its covered with this range, Tesla is soon opening up their Supercharger network, and I looked at detail in the NEVI plans for those states. The issue appears to be down to hauling or carrying capacity.

Running the numbers on the above for us and the AS but leaves no room for baggage. We’re getting the back hatch option so can put, for example, bikes in the back of the Airstream during transport. Thoughts on this? I understand the flooring can be easily damaged.

If I could just get an extra 300 lbs off that tongue weight it would be perfect.

My bold.

The following linked post shows what Andy at CanAm (in London Ontario, not Vancouver BC as noted above) did to reduce the tongue weight of a 27' Airstream to 610 lbs, loaded for travel.

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f46...ml#post2631630

He was working with less payload capacity in his tow vehicle than you will have.

You will have to decide if you are going to work to the published payload number, or see if the tow vehicle gross axle weight ratings come out to the same limit.

It certainly seems doable to me.

[SlowPokePete]

No A/C.

No spare tire.

Ugh....

SPP

[DrivingDan]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

The main problem with EV's for towing isn't the pulling power. It is the range and the availability of chargers and how long it takes to charge them

Yeah my experience (long time EV owner) and calculations lead me to believe that just like 200+ miles is the starting point for passenger EV’s, 400+ mile range is the starting point for towing. 2025 GM Ultium II is projected to have 550-600 mile range which will be plenty (given delays in booting Ultium I I expect that more around 2026-2027)

Originally Posted by Dennis C

First of all, the 400 mile range is a hypothetical range under ideal conditions. In the real world, it's likely to be something like 360 - 380 miles as your starting point.

Actually in this case it’s likely to be at least 430 miles in my estimation. First, GM has said “400+”. Second is that GM underspecs their range, we’ve driven a Bolt for 5 years and got 270 on a speced range of 240. Finally the Silverado is a from the ground up design and the primary spec the engineers had from the beginning is “at least 400 mile range”. As an engineer I can tell you those ‘initial moonshot’ specs are always met and usually exceeded.

Secondly, your route will take you over roads of various grades and elevations, which negatively impacts range. This could further reduce your starting point in terms of mileage.

Understood, but I think people (not saying you are) take that always in the negative. Range loss is same for EV’s and ICE, worst case I’ve seen is 50%, average case (e.g. not metal footing it at 70 on the freeway) is 25%, according to DOT/Sandia research, and anecdotal internet.

Finally, I completely agree that the charging infrastructure has improved, but it's still lacking.

I’ve read the state NEVI plans in detail, which show existing commercial deployment and planned NEVI deployments. Supplemented with actual planned trips, its all looking fine, but won’t know until you try!

Originally Posted by jcl

My bold.

The following linked post shows what Andy at CanAm (in London Ontario, not Vancouver BC as noted above) did to reduce the tongue weight of a 27' Airstream to 610 lbs, loaded for travel.

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f46...ml#post2631630

Thanks! Will definitely check that out.

[DrivingDan]

Originally Posted by SlowPokePete

No A/C.

No spare tire.

Ugh....

Copy that! I believe in have my cake and eat it too. I’d keep the spare, weight isn’t so much the issue. For roof drag I’d instead try head and tail spoilers, the laminar flow shouldn’t be disrupted from pockets. The opposite actually as you might likely get the ‘golf ball’ dimple effect which benefits (air slabs flow easier over another air pocket instead of hard surface, which you just use to keep the shape).

Main thing is adding a spoiler to the underside tank infrastructure which is easy, then for polish you could add a ribbed flow director on the tail to rejoin.

But you know one of the biggest effects is the dead air space between the trailer and TV which is a low pressure drag. Just putting a stuff triangular whale snout there should fix that.

Anyhow I haven’t seen this post, but have seen the webpage Andrew T put up. I’m not sure but it looks like he just reduced the tongue weight of his trailer by moving stuff around, and ran with that which apparently worked out, which is great, but not something I think we can do arbitrarily in general.

Otherwise I probably won’t do much if anything to the aero, with the Silverado I doubt it’ll matter that much. With a Tesla - yeah, gotta do everything you can.

[DrivingDan]

From another thread Hairy Clive had a great post on tongue weight. Specifically that first link to an eTrailer article.

the key is to make sure that the axles are located in just the right position so that roughly 10 to 15 percent of the total trailer weight is placed on the tongue

This is useful. So assume AS designed the 791 lb (27FB Flying Cloud) tongue weight for the total GVWR of 7600 lbs, just dividing the two gives us a 10% on the nose rounded tongue weight. With a UBW of 5868 (curb weight), if we (say) didn’t load the trailer with anything we get a tongue weight of 586 (10% of 5868), a savings of 204 lbs tongue weight.

Unrealistic and a bad tradeoff, as you’re trading some 1800 lbs of goods for only 200 lbs of tongue weight, but an interesting exercise.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by SlowPokePete

No A/C.

No spare tire.

Ugh....

SPP

Haven’t had a vehicle spare tire in 20 years. Some were run flats, but most weren’t.

I’d want AC, but not on the roof. A mini split would make much more sense.

[gator.bigfoot]

Originally Posted by jcl

Haven’t had a vehicle spare tire in 20 years. Some were run flats, but most weren’t.



I’d want AC, but not on the roof. A mini split would make much more sense.

Definitely mini splits make more sense. Run flats are a scam. They don't really run flat very far. I small compressor and a plug kit is much better. The trailer doesn't need a spare if it's a double axle.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jcl

Haven’t had a vehicle spare tire in 20 years. Some were run flats, but most weren’t.

I’d want AC, but not on the roof. A mini split would make much more sense.

If you've gone that long without a spare, then a) you've been very luck, b) don't mind being delayed in your travels, or c) haven't experienced the 'joy' of having a tire go bad on a Friday evening of a long holiday weekend.

Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot

Definitely mini splits make more sense. Run flats are a scam. They don't really run flat very far. I small compressor and a plug kit is much better. The trailer doesn't need a spare if it's a double axle.

Whether you "need" a spare really depends on how you're using your trailer and what your priorities are.

True, you can limp along at a slow speed on 3 wheels if you've got a double axle trailer, but you're not going far or fast that way. It will get you off the road and to safe, but certainly won't get you to your next destination unless it's very close.

A compressor and plug kit is good if your tire cooperates and has a simply puncture in a repairable location. Doesn't help much for blowouts or sidewall damage.


Me? The spare tire is not negotiable - it can make the difference between a slight delay and a cancelled trip. I consider it as important as the other tires on the truck/trailer, and I realize that not everyone shares this opinion.

[gypsydad]

Interesting quest here...Andy towed with a modified Tesla and a heavily modified AS to make it lighter and also wind resistant, for a "test" I believe. Not sure Andy is "using" that set up for typical camping trips like most of us who buy Airstreams use them?

Please keep us posted. Will be interesting to know which EVTV and which model AS you choose... I agree the limiting factors likely will be charging challenges along the way, "payload" and of course, how much cost/time you want to sink into this project.

[ron barrow]

The mileage with a EV Ford 1500 towing a 6000 pound trailer was about 80 miles until battery needing recharge. Had to turn back no quick charger stations and not going to sit for an hour every 80 miles with nothing in box to boot.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

If you've gone that long without a spare, then a) you've been very luck, b) don't mind being delayed in your travels, or c) haven't experienced the 'joy' of having a tire go bad on a Friday evening of a long holiday weekend.

We had a flat (nail) in 2004. Tire pressure warning went off. Run flat at reduced speed to the tire shop. Since we knew the distance and speed it had been run when flat, it was deemed repairable.

We had a low pressure warning in 2009. Had a temporary spare. Didn’t use it, it was a slow leak and we kept it above 25 psi until a scheduled service two days later. Wasn’t repairable. New tire under included road hazard warranty.

No tire issues in the 13 years since. No more runflats now. We carry an inflator and sealant kit.

I think onboard pressure monitoring is critical. Tires don’t often go bad. They do often get neglected.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Interesting quest here...Andy towed with a modified Tesla and a heavily modified AS to make it lighter and also wind resistant, for a "test" I believe. Not sure Andy is "using" that set up for typical camping trips like most of us who buy Airstreams use them?

Please keep us posted. Will be interesting to know which EVTV and which model AS you choose... I agree the limiting factors likely will be charging challenges along the way, "payload" and of course, how much cost/time you want to sink into this project.

When you say modified Tesla, you mean that a receiver hitch was installed? Seems a pretty standard item. I suppose our last three tow vehicles were modified as well, if installing a receiver hitch is a modification.

Not a test, it is his personal vehicle. As was the Model 3 that preceded it. 3 years of EV towing. And reportedly 52 Teslas set up for towing at his dealership at the time the article was written. Those are customer vehicles.

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by richard5933

If you've gone that long without a spare, then a) you've been very luck, b) don't mind being delayed in your travels, or c) haven't experienced the 'joy' of having a tire go bad on a Friday evening of a long holiday weekend.

A compressor and plug kit is good if your tire cooperates and has a simply puncture in a repairable location. Doesn't help much for blowouts or sidewall damage.

Me? The spare tire is not negotiable - it can make the difference between a slight delay and a cancelled trip. I consider it as important as the other tires on the truck/trailer, and I realize that not everyone shares this opinion.

Originally Posted by jcl

We had a flat (nail) in 2004. Tire pressure warning went off. Run flat at reduced speed to the tire shop. Since we knew the distance and speed it had been run when flat, it was deemed repairable.

We had a low pressure warning in 2009. Had a temporary spare. Didn’t use it, it was a slow leak and we kept it above 25 psi until a scheduled service two days later. Wasn’t repairable. New tire under included road hazard warranty.

No tire issues in the 13 years since. No more runflats now. We carry an inflator and sealant kit.

I think onboard pressure monitoring is critical. Tires don’t often go bad. They do often get neglected.

While tire failures are not too common there is also some luck involved, and you've been fortunate. I've had two tire failures due to road hazards in the last 6 months. In one case a "hidden" pothole destroyed an ultra-low profile front tire on one vehicle and in the other case it was impossible to pull over immediately and as a result a rear tire on a second vehicle was damaged beyond repair.

In the first instance although I had a plug kit, mini-compressor and sealant on board, they were useless for fixing the damage. Even being in town, not in the middle of nowhere, it took over an hour for a flatbed to arrive. The second vehicle, OTOH, has a collapsible spare and I was able to change the tire and be on my way in 20 minutes.

Bottom line, although I carry a plug kit and compressor with the Airstream there are times when there is no substitute for a real spare and I wouldn't tow the trailer without one.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by mikeinca

While tire failures are not too common there is also some luck involved, and you've been fortunate. I've had two tire failures due to road hazards in the last 6 months. In one case a "hidden" pothole destroyed an ultra-low profile front tire on one vehicle and in the other case it was impossible to pull over immediately and as a result a rear tire on a second vehicle was damaged beyond repair.

In the first instance although I had a plug kit, mini-compressor and sealant on board, they were useless for fixing the damage. Even being in town, not in the middle of nowhere, it took over an hour for a flatbed to arrive. The second vehicle, OTOH, has a collapsible spare and I was able to change the tire and be on my way in 20 minutes.

Bottom line, although I carry a plug kit and compressor with the Airstream there are times when there is no substitute for a real spare and I wouldn't tow the trailer without one.

Fortune favours the prepared. I would not have ultra low profile tires, the risk isn't worth it to me.

For our dedicated winter tires, used when roads are more likely to have potholes/etc, we use -1 sizing to increase the sidewall and thus reduce the risk of road damage.

Yes, it is still possible to get a tire problem. But proper maintenance, regular inspections, and good decisions on tire selection can all reduce the risk of that happening, in my experience.