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Old 09-23-2022, 07:11 PM   #1
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EV towing and trailer brakes

Disclaimer: before people get worked up about safety and start lecturing about EV this or that, this thread is meant to be a theoretical and practical discussion of trailer braking in the era of EV’s, and what may or may not make sense. Let’s keep it on topic and focus on the discussion point

As discussed elsewhere I’m planning on stepping up my EV driving to towing with (we’ve decided) and Airstream using a Silverado EV truck. This lead me to think about trailer brakes. Now the Silverado EV comes with a trailer brake controller built in and the seven pin socket so that is available. However using the trailer brake is robbing the regenerative braking from all that potential energy. In an ideal world you would have no trailer brakes as the regen can certainly handle it (the battery can charge at 350kW and I’d estimate max regen with trailer would be < 200 kW)

So I’m wondering what the best approach is? For example, you’re going down a long constant grade as is common on the Interstates, would it be safe and reasonable to back the brakes off to maximize the regeneration on the tow vehicle? If the trailer and hitch have no issues with it, are you safe with going to zero trailer braking? What is the ultimate point of trailer braking, to give your tow brakes some help (which regen doesn’t need), or to help the hitch, or to prevent control issues with the trailer, or a combination of the above?

For reference EV’s generally treat regenerative cycles as braking and turn on the brake lights, presumably the same applies for the seven pin connector when in regen. OTOH maybe GM is programming it to only activate the trailer brakes when the car brakes - not regen - are activated. I’d guess they act normally no matter what.
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Old 09-23-2022, 07:24 PM   #2
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Trailer brakes do more than just slow the trailer, they also help with trailer stability under braking, especially heavy braking, so I wouldn't disable them.

I don't think you'll lose much regeneration by using trailer brakes anyway. First, the service brakes on the vehicle will still do the majority of the work. I'm willing to bet the incremental increase in braking effort you'd get from disabling the trailer brakes wouldn't increase regen braking anyway; you'll probably have already reached max braking regen anyway.

Second, I don't know about the Silverado EV, but with any EV I can think of you either have the ability to manually invoke different amounts of regeneration with paddles (like Audi) or you can set the level of regeneration that activates automatically whenever you lift off the throttle or both. One advantage of towing with an EV is that going downhill you should be able to stay off the brakes entirely in many cases and simply use regen to control your speed, kind of like the engine brake feature on a diesel, except you'll be producing more "fuel" at the same time.
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Old 09-23-2022, 07:36 PM   #3
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The way GM does it is the following (these are Bolt features carried forward to Ultium)
  • Bosch brake controller that is regen for the first 1/2 part of the stroke and brake the rest
  • Heavy one peal mode transmission setting. The column shift doesn’t have L (1-pedal) on it, so I believe that will either be a infotainment setting (boo) or a regen paddle double tap (yay)
  • Steering wheel paddle for super heavy ‘stop on a dime’ regen

In practice the best way to go down hill is to put it on 1-pedal L mode and let it manage itself, and then tap the accelerator occasionally depending on the road. But that’s the question - when in 1-pedal does the seven pin brake line get activated? I know that heavy regen activates the brake light, so I’d expect so (have to let people know you are slowing down).

Back in my day we didn’t have fancy 7 pin connectors and trailer brakes (and we walked in the snow), so one question is how ‘fishy’ is the trailer when trailer brakes aren’t helping? Just curious.
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Old 09-23-2022, 07:50 PM   #4
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Two things come to mind here - trailer sway and loss of control in a panic stop.

One cause of trailer sway is when the trailer tries to pass up the tow vehicle. Not having brakes on the trailer axles is a sure way to get this to happen.

You're heading down a long steep grade, speed starts to build so either you apply the tow vehicle's service brakes or the tow vehicle goes into regen. Either way the tow vehicle is now slowing down. Without brakes on the trailer, it's still trying to go the same speed, and sometimes this results in a sway event. There is a reason that trailers are more prone to sway events on downhill runs, especially on slick/wet roads.

In a panic stop or hard stop situation, if the trailer's brakes are not set properly a similar thing can happen - tow vehicle coming to a sudden stop and trailer wanting to keep going at the same speed. Add a slight curve to the road or swerving action on the steering wheel and all bets are off.

Trailer brakes do help slow down the combination rig, but they are also there to help provide control/stability and keep the trailer from trying to pass up the tow vehicle. The brakes on the trailer should be set according to recommended procedure, not reduced in an effort to maximize regen. That's one of those times when my mother would have told me not to be penny wise and pound foolish. Capturing the few watts of power from the trailer's weight on a downhill will be far outweighed by the tragedy of a sway event gone bad.
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Old 09-23-2022, 07:50 PM   #5
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Since the vehicle brake lights come on when under regen, and the 7 pin connecter provides a signal to the trailer to turn on its brake lights whenever the vehicle brake lights are activated, I'm going to guess the trailer lights will also come on under regeneration.
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Old 09-23-2022, 08:07 PM   #6
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Since the vehicle brake lights come on when under regen, and the 7 pin connecter provides a signal to the trailer to turn on its brake lights whenever the vehicle brake lights are activated, I'm going to guess the trailer lights will also come on under regeneration.
Agree

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Originally Posted by richard5933 View Post
Two things come to mind here - trailer sway and loss of control in a panic stop.
Panic stop - good point. You know this gets interesting … I’ve seen many interviews with the Silverado chief engineer when they did the roadshow reveal. Unfortunately car YouTube channels don’t know how to ask good questions, all they do is repeat the same ones over and over, pointing out all the obvious stuff you can read about in a spec sheet. But in between occasionally you’ll tidbits, such as she mentioned in regards to trailering that the rear steer is not just for turning radius, but control authority in trailering.

It’s a trope that an EV is a computer on wheels, but with a lot of truth to it. The rear steer is ‘drive-by-computer’ unlike the front which is via hydraulics (AFAIK). So what she is saying is they have algorithms that can detect fishtailing and whatnot and counteract it.

But if they’re really smart (and GM’s engineers are certainly really smart), they will also have algorithms to do some sophisticated things, for example take this use case … WAIT, it’s so simple. I was writing out a possible algorithm but I think it must be this.

Only apply trailer brakes when applying truck brakes. In regen, apply no brakes or minimal brakes if the rear wheel steer detects fishtailing. In either case apply brake lights.

Yeah, I betcha they’ll take care of it for us. Regen braking is nice and gentle, it encourages good driving actually, but the brakes are there for a panic, and in that case apply all the brakes.

Otherwise Richard yeah the brake controller is a normal truck style controller with the little squeeze controller or however that works, it’ll be new to me since my trailering from the old days is all 3 pin.
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Old 09-23-2022, 08:23 PM   #7
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I'd like to think that the brake controllers in the EV trucks are going to be smarter than the average bear. But no matter how smart they are, I'm sure that there will be some degree of having to manually set the brake controller to determine the max braking on the trailer.

It would be cool if the truck could sense when the trailer's wheels were locking up, but without that you'll have to make sure that the brake controller is set high enough to provide adequate braking but low enough to prevent locking the tires on a normal hard stop. This is likely were the eStream is going to shine - the coordination between the tow vehicle and the live drive axles in the trailer.

Sounds like the rear steer is going to be able to help prevent sway to some degree, but in something like a panic stop and/or an avoidance maneuver the trailer with properly set brakes is likely going to survive much better than one with them set too low. Same for going down a steep grade, especially in the rain - when the tow vehicle has to suddenly slow you'd better hope that the trailer does the same. Not sure rear steer will be able to push the trailer back into the lane if it starts going sideways while you're stopping.

Interesting concepts to ponder, for sure. Any chance there is an early copy of the owners' manual out there?
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Old 09-23-2022, 09:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDan View Post
The rear steer is ‘drive-by-computer’ unlike the front which is via hydraulics (AFAIK).
FWIW, very few new ICE vehicles have hydraulically assisted steering; certainly no EVs. Even the regular Chevy Silverado 1/2 ton has electrically assisted rack and pinion steering. I'll bet you a beer the Silverado EV has electric assist. No belt required (no pulley on an electric motor anyway!), no power robbing pump to fail, no lines to leak or fluid to top up. Hydraulic steering is old school on passenger cars and light trucks.
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Old 09-23-2022, 11:00 PM   #9
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A point of perspective on regen braking: ICE vehicles can and usually should go down long, steep grades without using their brakes much if at all. If they use only their brakes to scrub off speed, the brakes will overheat. So they use engine braking or a diesel exhaust brake. The driving dynamics of regen should be similar.

BTW, I've gone down the "Ike Gaunlet" towing my 25FB behind a gas half-ton, without touching the brakes even once.
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Old 09-24-2022, 03:21 AM   #10
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A point of perspective on regen braking: ICE vehicles can and usually should go down long, steep grades without using their brakes much if at all. If they use only their brakes to scrub off speed, the brakes will overheat. So they use engine braking or a diesel exhaust brake. The driving dynamics of regen should be similar.

BTW, I've gone down the "Ike Gaunlet" towing my 25FB behind a gas half-ton, without touching the brakes even once.
I'm not an expert on this for sure, but I believe that regen braking has much more potential braking capacity than engine or exhaust braking on a pickup. Probably more akin to the engine braking on modern semis, which on full power can send you forward out of your seat when applied. This is why use of exhaust braking in modern semis, especially on wet/slick roads, is not recommended. Since it only slows the tractor and not the trailer's axles it can send the semi into a jackknife quickly, especially on a downhill run.

Same for the setup we're discussing here. Regen kicking in harder on a downhill run without trailer brakes has the potential to put the cart before the horse quickly. (Come to think of it, this is the exact reason the heavy buggy we used to drive had it's own hydraulic brakes - to keep it from overrunning the horses on a downhill run we if needed to stop the horses quickly, but that's a different story altogether other than reinforcing the importance of brakes on the trailer.)
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Old 09-24-2022, 05:56 AM   #11
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I have an etron (disclaimer - I do not tow my Airstream with it and will never try) and I am fairly certain it uses regen to maintain the set speed when cruise control is active and I’m going downhill. I can see it happening on the battery display on the dash. It is likely the Silverado would do the same. So you may not need to do anything other than set the cruise. The computer will apply regen on any downhill as the mass of your setup tries to accelerate.

Regen on this car is very powerful. Using the paddle shifters I can almost bring the car to a full stop. The brakes only engage when the speed drops to a crawl.

FWIW, at 20,000km the Audi tech checked my brake pads and the wear was about 1/2mm on the front and 1/4mm on the back. He said they were nearly indistinguishable from new pads. So with light maintenance to keep the pins lubricated the pads should last an incredible amount of driving.

I think you will like the Silverado. I have a reservation on one but just recently purchased the new Tundra. The charging infrastructure in my area needs to build out more before the EV truck would work for me towing my International.
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Old 09-24-2022, 07:02 AM   #12
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...Regen on this car is very powerful. Using the paddle shifters I can almost bring the car to a full stop. The brakes only engage when the speed drops to a crawl....
Do your brakes lights activate when you do this using only regen?
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Old 09-24-2022, 10:36 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDan View Post
Disclaimer: before people get worked up about safety and start lecturing about EV this or that, this thread is meant to be a theoretical and practical discussion of trailer braking in the era of EV’s, and what may or may not make sense. Let’s keep it on topic and focus on the discussion point

As discussed elsewhere I’m planning on stepping up my EV driving to towing with (we’ve decided) and Airstream using a Silverado EV truck. This lead me to think about trailer brakes. Now the Silverado EV comes with a trailer brake controller built in and the seven pin socket so that is available. However using the trailer brake is robbing the regenerative braking from all that potential energy. In an ideal world you would have no trailer brakes as the regen can certainly handle it (the battery can charge at 350kW and I’d estimate max regen with trailer would be < 200 kW)
I am wondering when they will adapt these to pull behind vehicle trailers, or offer an aftermarket upgrade system.

https://greatdane.com/benefits-and-c...king-trailers/

https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions...aking-systems/

You could set the trailer brakes to whatever percentage the trailer weight is plus a little extra to make the trailer stay in line with the TV while slowing. and recover almost all the energy though the regen system. If the brake controller is smart enough it could make the necessary adjustments in real time to make the system operate as a single unified brake.

Quote:
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For reference EV’s generally treat regenerative cycles as braking and turn on the brake lights, presumably the same applies for the seven pin connector when in regen. OTOH maybe GM is programming it to only activate the trailer brakes when the car brakes - not regen - are activated. I’d guess they act normally no matter what.
Regen with brake lights on is a good safety idea showing the following vehicle(s) you are slowing on level or at least not accelerating on a downslope.
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Old 09-24-2022, 10:57 AM   #14
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I'm not an expert on this for sure, but I believe that regen braking has much more potential braking capacity than engine or exhaust braking on a pickup. Probably more akin to the engine braking on modern semis, which on full power can send you forward out of your seat when applied. This is why use of exhaust braking in modern semis, especially on wet/slick roads, is not recommended. Since it only slows the tractor and not the trailer's axles it can send the semi into a jackknife quickly, especially on a downhill run.

Same for the setup we're discussing here. Regen kicking in harder on a downhill run without trailer brakes has the potential to put the cart before the horse quickly.
My bold. It isn’t just semi trucks. Exhaust braking is also not recommended by pickup manufacturers when operating on slippery roads, especially applicable when towing.

Relying too much on tow vehicle regen on a descent is why trailer regen makes sense.
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Old 09-24-2022, 11:13 AM   #15
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I don’t know how brake lights are programmed for the Silverado, or if it changes when a trailer is attached. Is there anything in the owners manual or towing guide/documentation about this? I’m pretty sure the development engineers considered this very topic during the design of a vehicle that’s meant to tow.

My EV (like most) allows the driver to select the amount of regen preferred. I have mine set to maximum regen, and I typically drive with one pedal. It easily brings the vehicle to a full stop from highway speeds. I only use the brake pedal to hold the car on a hill and keep it from rolling. I also have to use the brake pedal when the battery is fully charged, as there’s virtually no regen in this case. As the battery charge is used, the available regen increases.

My EV activates the brake lights during regen in some scenarios, but not all. For example, if I’m going downhill and maintaining speed then the brake lights aren’t activated, even though The car is in regen mode. Even slight decreases in speed won’t activate the brake lights. They are only activated when the car slows more significantly, similar to using the brakes. The algorithm is pretty sophisticated.
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Old 09-24-2022, 11:21 AM   #16
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...I only use the brake pedal to hold the car on a hill and keep it from rolling. I also have to use the brake pedal when the battery is fully charged, as there’s virtually no regen in this case. ...
Do these systems give you advanced warning when your regen is about to go bye-bye? This would be important with regard to one of the initial questions about diminishing the trailer braking to maximize the regen potential.

Otherwise, without warning or if a driver just wasn't paying attention, it would be possible to suddenly lose a good chunk of your braking capability which was being relied on to slow down the combination rig.

In CDL training we were taught to not rely solely on the exhaust brake when descending a long and/or steep grade, but rather to keep a foot hovering over the brake pedal should it be needed. Things brake, and speed can increase rather suddenly if the exhaust brake suddenly cuts out. It would be virtually the same situation with an EV towing a trailer should the regen suddenly cut out when full charge was reached.
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Old 09-24-2022, 11:24 AM   #17
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Our EV used to have adjustable regen but doesn’t now.

Edit: a software update removed that feature per the release notes but I had never checked, since I nearly always use max regen. I just checked and our EV still has the reduced regen option. Happy to see that since I used it once on very icy roads.

We don’t use the brake pedal to hold the vehicle from rolling since there is an automatic hold function that is indicated on the dash when active. This feature is user selectable.

When the battery is very full and has no extra capacity left, regen is reduced. That only happens for us when the battery is at 100% or we are starting off in very low ambients and haven’t preconditioned the battery. It can’t just happen while driving. There is a warning on the dash when regen is reduced. With a recent update, the vehicle now applies the brakes automatically when regen is reduced, to match the usual regen retarding force, so as to provide a consistent user experience with one pedal driving.

Our brake lights are activated by a g sensor, by the brake pedal, and by the auto hold function.
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Old 09-24-2022, 12:05 PM   #18
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I have an etron (disclaimer - I do not tow my Airstream with it and will never try) and I am fairly certain it uses regen to maintain the set speed when cruise control is active and I’m going downhill.
My wife also has an Audi e-tron SUV. You're right; it does use regen in the situation you mention.

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Do your brakes lights activate when you do this using only regen?
Yes if, as Dennis C mentioned above re: his EV, the regen is enough to actually slow the car meaningfully.
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Old 09-24-2022, 02:07 PM   #19
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Do these systems give you advanced warning when your regen is about to go bye-bye? This would be important with regard to one of the initial questions about diminishing the trailer braking to maximize the regen potential.

Otherwise, without warning or if a driver just wasn't paying attention, it would be possible to suddenly lose a good chunk of your braking capability which was being relied on to slow down the combination rig.

In CDL training we were taught to not rely solely on the exhaust brake when descending a long and/or steep grade, but rather to keep a foot hovering over the brake pedal should it be needed. Things brake, and speed can increase rather suddenly if the exhaust brake suddenly cuts out. It would be virtually the same situation with an EV towing a trailer should the regen suddenly cut out when full charge was reached.
My vehicle has a display around the periphery of the center speedometer gauge that shows the driver if the car is using battery energy or regenerating energy in real time. It also shows the limit of regeneration in real time as the battery energy is depleted. The only time that regen is limited is when the battery is fully charged, and it allows greater and greater amounts of regen as the energy is depleted. I’d estimate that once the battery state of charge is less than 95% then full regen is available. I haven’t encountered a scenario where regen stops or cuts out.
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Old 09-24-2022, 02:54 PM   #20
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My vehicle has a display around the periphery of the center speedometer gauge that shows the driver if the car is using battery energy or regenerating energy in real time. It also shows the limit of regeneration in real time as the battery energy is depleted. The only time that regen is limited is when the battery is fully charged, and it allows greater and greater amounts of regen as the energy is depleted. I’d estimate that once the battery state of charge is less than 95% then full regen is available. I haven’t encountered a scenario where regen stops or cuts out.
That's good to know, and sounds like for the most part the regen can be depended on for help is maintaining speed on a downhill run. I'd still probably have my foot hovering over the brake anyhow, at least for the first few trips down a long/steep descent.
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