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Old 07-08-2017, 11:57 AM   #21
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Hi

Would you want a tow that has a 100 mile range?

Some simple / stupid math:

A sedan style car gets around 30 to 40 mpg these days.
Just about anything towing a 10,000 lb AS is down in the 10 mpg range
Call that a 3:1 ratio in terms of fuel.

If your electric vehicle gets a 300 mile range under normal conditions, figure it will do 100 miles when towing by the above math.

Yes, you can pick this apart. You get something back from engine brakes -> battery. You also need to add weight for bigger brakes / axles / tires / frame.

Unless you have a replaceable battery approach, pulling over every two hours to recharge for eight hours would be a bit of a pain.

Hybrid would help, but you likely would want a turbo diesel on it. Back to the weight thing again. If it's "only" a 3L it still is pretty big and heavy.

Narrow market? Sure is. If they start applying "no gas / no diesel after this date" rules to trucks - not much choice. Either there will be no more trucks (likely not an answer) or they will start churning out electrics. My bet in that case would be hydrogen fill ups. It's still a gas station, just a different kind of gas

Bob
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:06 PM   #22
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For me it's a range thing. We camp with 50A service, so we could charge at the camp. Tesla has super chargers in Chattanooga, Nashville, and Knoxville which covers several corridors we would most likely travel. But I still want to see 200 mile range when towing at least. The reality of 100 is although I could stop that frequently without a big issue, you have zero cushion to find a charging place. With no big infrastructure out there, Id want 200 mile range for our area.
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:14 PM   #23
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It aint there, yet. It would need to tow my 9100 lbs Classic 400+ miles per day. Plus pass the J2807 tow standard. I like the Davis Dam grade. And charge (refill) in less than 10 minutes so we can go out to dinner after a long day.

The future has promised a lot that it hasn't delivered on. Check any past issue of Popular Mechanics. Flying cars anyone?
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:27 PM   #24
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And if you consider that lithium is more expensive than lead and it will be part of much larger and expensive batteries, it is almost sure that it will be recycled.
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Old 07-08-2017, 01:05 PM   #25
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The electric power naysayers in this thread are missing the boat, IMO (and getting some facts wrong, too). California is leading the nation in switching to clean electric power in homes, business, and transportation. SoCalEd may still have a contract to buy power from coal burning gen plants in the 4 corners, but its not up for renewal. In NorCal, the primary for profit, investor owned power supplier, PG&E, gets 0.0% from coal.
Understanding our energy sources.

About half of the electricity we deliver is a combination of renewable and greenhouse gas-free resources. For example, the power mix delivered in 2016 included:

Non-emitting nuclear generation (24 percent)
  • Large hydroelectric facilities (12 percent)
  • Eligible renewable resources, such as wind, geothermal, biomass, solar and small hydro (33 percent).
  • Natural gas/other (17 percent)
  • Unspecified power (13 percent). not traceable to specific sources by any auditable contract trail. (thermal steam gen)
Data is sourced from PG&E’s 10K report, filed in February 2017.


In addition, under a state law that authorized community power aggregation, a growing number of local governments are taking over power delivery from the 3 large investor owned utilities. The CCA's supply a larger percentage of renewable clean electric power.


CA leads the nation in the number of electric and hybrid electric vehicles. But the leading indicator of when to shop for an all electric or hybrid TV is not what Tesla or Chevy Volt is developing. Instead, look at what large road truck mfg's are working on. The technology is sneaking up on you faster than you think!
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Old 07-08-2017, 01:26 PM   #26
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Ontario no longer uses coal to generate electricity, and I don't see any reason that other jurisdictions won't be able to follow suit. Here is a current snapshot of Ontario energy sources:

For reference, if Ontario were a state it would be the fifth largest in population, behind only California, Texas, New York and Florida. Natural gas is mostly in the mix because it can be easily ramped up for times of peak demand.
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Old 07-08-2017, 01:29 PM   #27
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I have some friends who own a Prius. It worked great on relatively flat terrain but in the mountains it really struggles.
Perry
Maybe there's a problem with their model, but my Prius has a 150000 miles on it and has no problem with steep hills. I do notice a bit of a difference in acceleration when I have my 19-year-old sons with me, but for an economy car getting 40-50 mpg it does just fine.
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Old 07-08-2017, 01:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Volvo recently annouced that all models by 2019 will be a combination of hybrid or completely electric. Volvo's XC90 is a large hybrid SUV.
Just to clarify, the announcement refers to new models after 2019. Current internal combustion engine Volvo models will continue to be sold after that date.
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Old 07-08-2017, 01:35 PM   #29
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Hi

The "well known" nuclear plant up the road from here is about to go out of business. Seems they can't sell their output cheap enough to be competitive these days.

Bob
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Old 07-08-2017, 02:56 PM   #30
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Just to clarify, the announcement refers to new models after 2019. Current internal combustion engine Volvo models will continue to be sold after that date.
So I guess this qualifies for 20 20 foresight?

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Old 07-08-2017, 03:09 PM   #31
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Plug-in electric TVs may be a little way off, but I can imagine hybrids in the not-so-distant future. I will shortly purchase my third hybrid automobile and I love them. I know the technology isn't here yet, but who would have figured self-driving cars just a few years ago? I remember when I was proud to be a DOS man and laughed at those silly Apple computers with those funny little "mice" they had hooked to them.

For those who wonder about all the used batteries ... we can always just kick that can down the road like we continue to do with nuclear wastes from the weapons and power industries.

As we age, it's easy to get on the wrong side of history!
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Old 07-08-2017, 03:36 PM   #32
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We could have electric cars now if it was what the powers that be wanted. When I was a kid there was literally a gas station on every corner at least on the main roads. If cars were like battery power tools you could just change battery packs every 100 miles or so if you had to. Pull into the solar charge station and swap the standardized battery, swipe your card and be down the road in a few minutes. Maybe a Hybrid for towing duty. Nuclear power will never be economically viable if the cost to clean up after them was factored in; what do you think Fukushima will cost? Renewable s should have been the model from way back, then future generations wouldn't be so screwed.
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Old 07-08-2017, 04:18 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gneiss Guy View Post
I know the technology isn't here yet, but who would have figured self-driving cars just a few years ago? I remember when I was proud to be a DOS man and laughed at those silly Apple computers with those funny little "mice" they had hooked to them.

As we age, it's easy to get on the wrong side of history!
EXACTLY!

For all those with Iphones in their hands; how many of you would have thought it crazy to be told ten years ago you'd carry and have instant access to the knowledge of the world in the palm of your hand, today.

The future of electric vehicles is a lot closer than you'd think. The technology is getting cheaper and more user friendly.

If you're hanging onto diesel and gas in 15 years, I think you're going to find it very difficult to find fuel; and if you think I'm crazy to say that......try and find a working phone booth anywhere. Have you looked lately? Used to be at every gas station, mall entrance and food store; but no more. In ten years they have all but disappeared from our world. In fact, my children wouldn't know how to operate one.

Cheers
Tony
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Old 07-08-2017, 04:21 PM   #34
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Living in the west we tend to have to drive long distances much of which is up and then down (what goes up must come down) steep grades. I would consider electric for a TV when I can drive with confidence towing my AS from here to Albuquerque which means over Raton pass or from here to Ouray, CO over Monarch pass without even thinking about whether I will have enough electric power range to make it the entire way because a full charge is more than a gas stop - it is a multi-hour process. Setting the opinion discussion to the side - the reality is that TV's will go electric probably in my lifetime (I'm 60) - the internal combustion engine is complex as is the drivetrain and requires multiple lubricants, electrical, gas & air mixing, and cooling components to make it all work. If one single part fails then you are sidelined. The electric vehicles side step much of the complexity - like a turbine engine vs a gas engine on an airplane - and are therefore much more reliable with less maintenance.
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Old 07-08-2017, 04:29 PM   #35
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Today, an electric vehicle is most likely a coal powered vehicle.
.
Actually, since 2011, coal hasn't accounted for more than 8.5% of California's power.
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Old 07-08-2017, 05:02 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by kdickinson View Post
Living in the west we tend to have to drive long distances much of which is up and then down (what goes up must come down) steep grades. I would consider electric for a TV when I can drive with confidence towing my AS from here to Albuquerque which means over Raton pass or from here to Ouray, CO over Monarch pass without even thinking about whether I will have enough electric power range to make it the entire way because a full charge is more than a gas stop - it is a multi-hour process. Setting the opinion discussion to the side - the reality is that TV's will go electric probably in my lifetime (I'm 60) - the internal combustion engine is complex as is the drivetrain and requires multiple lubricants, electrical, gas & air mixing, and cooling components to make it all work. If one single part fails then you are sidelined. The electric vehicles side step much of the complexity - like a turbine engine vs a gas engine on an airplane - and are therefore much more reliable with less maintenance.
Hi

Right now, the most ambitious "no internal combustion" goal appears to be France and he 2040 deadline. I have not read the text, but my understanding is that it does not apply to trucks. On passenger vehicles, Norway may well beat them in terms of "last gasser on the road". The takeaway is that even though the technology for a passenger car is more than 20 years old, the "last sell" date is 23 years in the future.

In terms of anything you can actually buy, there is no "all electric" alternative to an F-250. There also is no obvious push for such a gizmo. Smaller market / no tax incentives / no big customer appeal .... lots of reasons. There are also a raft of technical issues. Taking the same timeline for trucks would push the cross over to "can't buy them" into roughly 2060 at the soonest.

That could be optimistic, it might be pessimistic. On an iPhone sort of basis, some of us were working on that technology in the late 70's and have been asking "what took so long" ever since ....

Bob
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Old 07-08-2017, 05:26 PM   #37
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When to go electric for a tow vehicle

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidsonOverlander View Post
Maybe there's a problem with their model, but my Prius has a 150000 miles on it and has no problem with steep hills. I do notice a bit of a difference in acceleration when I have my 19-year-old sons with me, but for an economy car getting 40-50 mpg it does just fine.


Precisely. We have two of them. For commute use, they outrun everything on the road. With passengers, still mot bad. We have a 2012 and a 2016. Don't plan to replace them, but may add a Tessa model 3 as an experiment ...

For the AS, big gas-burning Toyota pickup truck for now....
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Old 07-08-2017, 05:32 PM   #38
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For all those thinking this won't happen in your lifetime.....

Is nobody following Workhorse? Their fleet pickup is a 5 seater, 2200 lb payload, 5000 lb towing capacity, 80 mile all electric range, 310 mile range using onboard generator. This is first generation. See their Freightliner work.

http://workhorse.com/pickup/
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Old 07-08-2017, 06:18 PM   #39
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Nuclear power will never be economically viable if the cost to clean up after them was factored in; what do you think Fukushima will cost?
The same could be said for powering vehicles with fossil fuels. If the health costs due to pollution and the climate change effects on weather, sea level, etc were factored in the costs would be far higher.
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Old 07-08-2017, 06:37 PM   #40
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Quote:
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For all those thinking this won't happen in your lifetime.....

Is nobody following Workhorse? Their fleet pickup is a 5 seater, 2200 lb payload, 5000 lb towing capacity, 80 mile all electric range, 310 mile range using onboard generator. This is first generation. See their Freightliner work.

http://workhorse.com/pickup/
Lifetime? This has just happened in our thread time. Seriously people, 460 hp 0-60 5.5 seconds and run on all electric for 80 miles. How many years go by before this is in your driveway with triple, if not quintuple the range and triple the payload or towing capacity?

The impossible future is right here; so much for not in my lifetime.

Thanks for the post and link jcl.




Cheers
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