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Old 07-09-2017, 05:57 PM   #61
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I just wanted to say that in the 24 or so hours since I started this thread it has been viewed 2000 times, has 60+ posts, (which has to be a record of sorts) and has been filled with incredible thoughtful posts from you all.

Even though I currently have an Airstream 310 turbo diesel, buying an electric hybid pick up to compliment my fleet excites the bejeezers out of me.

I'm sure that even the early naysayers in this thread are continuing to subscribe, just to try and keep up with the rapidly changing world that we live in.

It has been a very exciting thread, if I do say so myself and the interest in this thread speaks volumes to the interest that an an electric/hybrid tow vehicle has within the Airstream community.

Thank you all.
Tony
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:17 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
For all those thinking this won't happen in your lifetime.....

Is nobody following Workhorse? Their fleet pickup is a 5 seater, 2200 lb payload, 5000 lb towing capacity, 80 mile all electric range, 310 mile range using onboard generator. This is first generation. See their Freightliner work.

http://workhorse.com/pickup/
Workhorse is also working on a hybrid step van with a UPS example shown:

http://workhorse.com/stepvans

and a bakery delivery all-electric version:

"The future is here!"




And here is a walk-around review:

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Old 07-09-2017, 06:22 PM   #63
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Watch this QuickSider lower its rear end and front door for deliveries. Kind of a labored video to make a point IMO, but can you picture this vehicle as a self-contained RV?

Hmmmmm.

"Back to the future . . . "

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Old 07-09-2017, 06:36 PM   #64
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When to go electric for a tow vehicle

Science fiction is the antidote for "Future Shock". Read more science fiction--it's all been thought of before.

--brought to you by all us old white guys who used to go around with white shirts, crewcuts and slide rules in the orange scabbards bouncing off our hips. And yes, I still have a good supply of pocket protectors that I use every day, still.

Nothing much new surprises me--it's just good engineering and a few well-timed technological breakthroughs.

Dealing with progress is a lot like trying to ride a tiger. Just grab it by the ears, try to aim it in the right direction, and hang on for the ride. Just don't let it get loose, turn on you, and eat you!

And yeah, I still have the slide rule in case the computer goes out or the calculator batteries die.
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Old 07-09-2017, 07:25 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohmman View Post
I just returned from a 4000 mile trip with an EV (Tesla Model X) pulling a 22' Sport. For those of you who said it wouldn't be possible in your lifetimes, I am sorry you haven't made it to this post and may you rest in peace.

For those who bring up electric subsidies and level playing fields, let's discuss that. Is oil and gas exploration subsidized? How about the healthcare costs associated with vehicle emissions? Estimates vary but range from $15-20 per tank of fuel consumed. Those are external costs that are subsidized by society. I'm absolutely in favor of a level playing field, but it will include pricing in these externalities at the pump and at the point of electricity delivery. Electric incentive programs are a very wise investment for governments because they save money in the long run.

The majority of my vehicle miles are powered by my rooftop solar. My recent towing trip was powered by local energy, which did include coal in places like Montana and Idaho, but also wind in Alberta, hydroelectric in the Northwest, and solar in California. Electric motors are vastly more efficient than ICE, though, so my trip consumed a total of 2,138kWh of electricity. One gallon of gasoline has about 33.7kWh. My electricity represented about 64 gallons of gasoline for 4000 miles. Anyone else getting 62.5 mpg while towing?

It wasn't mindlessly easy to take the trip. I plan to update my other thread which was linked above with more details. It took logistical planning, but the trip was flexible and we were able to tow through relatively dead spots like all around Glacier National Park and a circuit around the Olympic Peninsula. I towed the trailer all the way up to Hurricane Ridge without issue and crossed Lookout Pass on I-90 silently and effortlessly. Power isn't an issue at all, but range definitely requires attention.

ICE TVs are easier. But after this trip, I agree with the OP that EVs cannot be dismissed. They aren't some pie in the sky future vehicle - they're here now and rapidly improving. I will be watching Tesla's unveiling of their semi in September with great interest to see how they're going to handle high rates of charging. Rumors have charge rates over 300kW in the works.

EVs aren't currently for everyone, but I would like an honest discussion of their benefits and drawbacks instead of blanket dismissals that aren't rooted in the data. I think this is a great place to have the discussion, because everyone I met on campgrounds around the US and Canada had a lot of enthusiasm for our rig, especially Airstreamers. Surely we'd all like to do the best for the beautiful places we visit.
As an electrical engineer, chronic entrepreneur, alternative power advocate, serial hybrid car owner, Airstream owner and proud Californian, I'm just loving this thread. Thanks Ohmman for a clear, concise and factual take on this issue. There is a lot of anecdotal rhetoric being bandied about, but the reality is that there is a tremendous amount of R&D taking place out of sight, and when the economic tipping point happens, we will see a flood of options in this area...
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Old 07-09-2017, 11:00 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ohmman View Post
I just returned from a 4000 mile trip with an EV (Tesla Model X) pulling a 22' Sport. For those of you who said it wouldn't be possible in your lifetimes, I am sorry you haven't made it to this post and may you rest in peace.

For those who bring up electric subsidies and level playing fields, let's discuss that. Is oil and gas exploration subsidized? How about the healthcare costs associated with vehicle emissions? Estimates vary but range from $15-20 per tank of fuel consumed. Those are external costs that are subsidized by society. I'm absolutely in favor of a level playing field, but it will include pricing in these externalities at the pump and at the point of electricity delivery. Electric incentive programs are a very wise investment for governments because they save money in the long run.

The majority of my vehicle miles are powered by my rooftop solar. My recent towing trip was powered by local energy, which did include coal in places like Montana and Idaho, but also wind in Alberta, hydroelectric in the Northwest, and solar in California. Electric motors are vastly more efficient than ICE, though, so my trip consumed a total of 2,138kWh of electricity. One gallon of gasoline has about 33.7kWh. My electricity represented about 64 gallons of gasoline for 4000 miles. Anyone else getting 62.5 mpg while towing?

It wasn't mindlessly easy to take the trip. I plan to update my other thread which was linked above with more details. It took logistical planning, but the trip was flexible and we were able to tow through relatively dead spots like all around Glacier National Park and a circuit around the Olympic Peninsula. I towed the trailer all the way up to Hurricane Ridge without issue and crossed Lookout Pass on I-90 silently and effortlessly. Power isn't an issue at all, but range definitely requires attention.

ICE TVs are easier. But after this trip, I agree with the OP that EVs cannot be dismissed. They aren't some pie in the sky future vehicle - they're here now and rapidly improving. I will be watching Tesla's unveiling of their semi in September with great interest to see how they're going to handle high rates of charging. Rumors have charge rates over 300kW in the works.

EVs aren't currently for everyone, but I would like an honest discussion of their benefits and drawbacks instead of blanket dismissals that aren't rooted in the data. I think this is a great place to have the discussion, because everyone I met on campgrounds around the US and Canada had a lot of enthusiasm for our rig, especially Airstreamers. Surely we'd all like to do the best for the beautiful places we visit.
Thank you for sharing your experiences as well as sharing what you have learned about energy and power. I so appreciate all the information you are giving us here on AirForums!
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Old 07-10-2017, 03:10 AM   #67
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Thanks ohmman for the cogent summary of your trip through Canada and the NW US, and the further details in the thead linked below. Your new post on that thread from early this morning is very informative indeed.

And thank you Isuzusweet for a great topic and discussion!

Peter


Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
If you are still breathing, this Tesla is doing it right now.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...-x-160951.html

Maybe not the perfect solution, but as Tony said, "the future is here!"



PS -- Mollysdad, some of the later posts on that thread discuss the charging stations, some of which require unhitching the trailer to charge the Tesla. Room for improvement for sure.
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Old 07-10-2017, 05:53 AM   #68
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As I sit in my V-8 pickup on I70, on the second day of 11 hours each day towing on the road, I would have to say that it's not looking likely.
I hope you're not the driver........
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Old 07-10-2017, 06:22 AM   #69
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My gas truck only has a 200 mile range when towing , 300 otherwise.

So I find if I just go 200 miles to the next camp site it works out well .

So if I had an electric TV with a 200 milage towing it would work for me sort of.

By the way my daily driver is all electric

I've been toying with the idea of converting some of my classic vehicles to electric
boy would that cut way down on maintenance .
We did a conversion about 10 years ago, a little expensive but gas was around $4 then. With new battery technology it might be viable for a lighter classic vehicle. The biggest problem we had was battery weight. It would be fun to convert a small convertible as an EV.
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Old 07-10-2017, 06:47 AM   #70
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Hybrid pickups make sense to me. I'm surprised Detroit hasn't put some on the market.

As I understand it, a hybrid allows a vehicle to draw on electric power to get the beast moving and to switch to conventional power to push it down the highway.

So, automakers should be able to build tow-capable pickups that have small gas or diesel motors. Since the electric motors do the heavy lifting and also provide assistance when needed (pulling up hills), the big V-8 (or biggish V-6) is no longer a requirement.

I'd entertain that option, for sure.

My city has a few all-electric (battery) buses. They work, but, of course, they don't have to leave town.

I think the range limits of all-electric pickups put them out of consideration for towing a camper, but things are changing fast.
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:10 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by ohmman View Post
I just returned from a 4000 mile trip with an EV (Tesla Model X) pulling a 22' Sport. For those of you who said it wouldn't be possible in your lifetimes, I am sorry you haven't made it to this post and may you rest in peace.

For those who bring up electric subsidies and level playing fields, let's discuss that. Is oil and gas exploration subsidized? How about the healthcare costs associated with vehicle emissions? Estimates vary but range from $15-20 per tank of fuel consumed. Those are external costs that are subsidized by society. I'm absolutely in favor of a level playing field, but it will include pricing in these externalities at the pump and at the point of electricity delivery. Electric incentive programs are a very wise investment for governments because they save money in the long run.

The majority of my vehicle miles are powered by my rooftop solar. My recent towing trip was powered by local energy, which did include coal in places like Montana and Idaho, but also wind in Alberta, hydroelectric in the Northwest, and solar in California. Electric motors are vastly more efficient than ICE, though, so my trip consumed a total of 2,138kWh of electricity. One gallon of gasoline has about 33.7kWh. My electricity represented about 64 gallons of gasoline for 4000 miles. Anyone else getting 62.5 mpg while towing?

It wasn't mindlessly easy to take the trip. I plan to update my other thread which was linked above with more details. It took logistical planning, but the trip was flexible and we were able to tow through relatively dead spots like all around Glacier National Park and a circuit around the Olympic Peninsula. I towed the trailer all the way up to Hurricane Ridge without issue and crossed Lookout Pass on I-90 silently and effortlessly. Power isn't an issue at all, but range definitely requires attention.

ICE TVs are easier. But after this trip, I agree with the OP that EVs cannot be dismissed. They aren't some pie in the sky future vehicle - they're here now and rapidly improving. I will be watching Tesla's unveiling of their semi in September with great interest to see how they're going to handle high rates of charging. Rumors have charge rates over 300kW in the works.

EVs aren't currently for everyone, but I would like an honest discussion of their benefits and drawbacks instead of blanket dismissals that aren't rooted in the data. I think this is a great place to have the discussion, because everyone I met on campgrounds around the US and Canada had a lot of enthusiasm for our rig, especially Airstreamers. Surely we'd all like to do the best for the beautiful places we visit.
EV will never dominate. Tesla's entire business model is built on tax subsidies. If they were eliminated Teslas stock would tank over night. And as in the past, this will fade because the real answer to energy use is fuel cells. That will be developed as market forces require it. Right now there is nothing out there to compete with the ICE on any level.
I can buy a Ford Focus for my college bound kid for under $ 19,000.00.
It gets close to 40 MPG cheep to drive and own.
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:17 AM   #72
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EV will never dominate. Tesla's entire business model is built on tax subsidies.

This is incorrect, and I've detailed why before. Don't forget that the tax credit runs out for Tesla early next year. 200,000 automobiles per manufacturer.

Your statement is about as accurate as my saying that GM's entire business model is based on being able to dump carbon and pollutants into the air without paying the costs. It's a factor, but it's not the entire business model. A realistic tax on externalities would hit GM but they'd survive. I feel the same about Tesla when the tax credit expires next year.
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:34 AM   #73
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I would be seriously interested in a large electric SUV. I would like to see:

Payload 1500lbs
Tow capacity 8000lbs
Range (when towing) 300miles
4x4 capability.

If this was available for a small premium over the ICE version I would be very interested. I do feel this will be coming in the next 5-10years.
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:14 AM   #74
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Electric tow vehicles do offer a host of possible advantages over their gas/diesel bethren as their power is delivered in a linear fashion and you can recoup electric power through braking etc, etc.
I love the regenerative braking in my Prius. We just had the brakes done for the first time at over 150000 miles! Even at that the pads still had a lot of life in them.
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:20 AM   #75
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I love the regenerative braking in my Prius. We just had the brakes done for the first time at over 150000 miles! Even at that the pads still had a lot of life in them.
That's going to be the tough part for the auto industry; coming to grips with less service intervals, less parts to go wrong, so the front end (sale price) will have to increase to offset the reduced back end (service work). Of all the deterrents to going electric by a manufacturer, is losing the $10,000+++ dollars of service work an ICE vehicle requires over its lifetime.

Cheers
Tony
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Old 07-10-2017, 11:10 AM   #76
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The trend among the luxury auto companies seems to be a focus on performance (speed) when it comes to hybrid technology. Mating an electric motor to smaller ICE when it comes to improving 0-60 times for example. I guess it has to do with the low cost of gasoline and less emphasis on MPG. Dual turbocharged (in line biturbos especially) seem to be the way to get more HP out of the little 4 cyl engines (with 3 cyl making their debut as well).

I measure performance as bang for buck. How far can I go on a dollar's worth of fuel, with the variable here being the grade and type of fuel. Can be applied universally to gas, diesel, natural gas, hydrogen AND electric vehicles. I doubt the hybrid speed demons can match my biturbo 2.1L diesel in my E250, which routinely gets 50 MPG and still gets respectable acceleration, like I care. I challenge you to post your real bang for buck ratings, because that's all that really matters. I tow with a 4x4 Silverado with 5.3L engine capable of 4 Cyl operation when coasting and going downhill, and average 14 MPG on reg unleaded gas or by my standard, about 7 miles per buck. My E250 on the other hand, gets in excess of 20 miles per buck. The analogy I like to use is driving down the road and tossing quarters out the window... One every two miles with the truck, and one every 5 miles in the Benz.

I look forward to hearing about the new X class truck from Mercedes and seeing which drivetrain they choose for it and its towing capability, which shall be revealed a scant week from now. There are teaser videos out already. It would be good to know what fuel it requires.

For the record, I am a big proponent of Solar PV and Solar thermal (actually a higher bang for buck that PV), and I have both. I satisfy at least half my electric requirements with a 7.8 KW system and a Solar Thermal hot water system. Its not a total solution, but it keeps me in tier one rates (about 10c per KW). I could expand to 9.9 KW with a few more panels, but anything above that would result in special taxation which I choose to avoid. Adding an electric car would simply boost that threshold and result in diminishing returns in either pushing me into tier two rates or requiring the aforementioned >10KW array. I have generated over 43 MWHs in less than 4 years and am averaging 1.1 MWhs per month. My consumption ranges from 30 KWhs or so in the cool months and 75 or so in the summer and winter (electric heat pump).

But I do find this thread immensely amusing as folks debate the tractor capabilities of future TVs, especially considering the absurdness of dragging your living room, kitchen, bathroom and bedroom down the road behind you. Perhaps our time might be better spent pontificating on the merits of making the thing we are moving more lightweight to begin with, since the real measure here is the amount of work required to satisfy our desire to "camp".


I do see the advantage of having hybrid IF the TV is strong enough to move the trailer in stop and go traffic (Atlanta downtown connector for example), without the aid of gas, and if you spend a lot of time in traffic, or as some have pointed out, you need a boost to get up hills, and are satisfied with the performance on the flatroads using a smaller gas engine. Here again, I look forward to seeing what the X class specs are. Other than that, I think the added weight and cost is a bit of a waste of good energy and money.
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Old 07-10-2017, 12:46 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomzstream View Post

but I do find this thread immensely amusing as folks debate the tractor capabilities of future TVs, especially considering the absurdness of dragging your living room, kitchen, bathroom and bedroom down the road behind you. Perhaps our time might be better spent pontificating on the merits of making the thing we are moving more lightweight to begin with, since the real measure here is the amount of work required to satisfy our desire to "camp".
When I renovated my 310's interior I was completely anal about weight. My camper has no TV (I mean the thing you watch) and the very bare minimum of supplies or creature comfort. Yes, modern fifth wheels with the two big screens, fireplaces, stainless steel appliances and five slide outs weigh more than my 310's total weight; but that's another thread.

However weight will be a factor if towing by an electric vehicle to maximize range.

Cheers
Tony
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Old 07-10-2017, 05:07 PM   #78
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EV will never dominate. Tesla's entire business model is built on tax subsidies. If they were eliminated Teslas stock would tank over night. And as in the past, this will fade because the real answer to energy use is fuel cells. That will be developed as market forces require it. Right now there is nothing out there to compete with the ICE on any level.
I can buy a Ford Focus for my college bound kid for under $ 19,000.00.
It gets close to 40 MPG cheep to drive and own.
Everything is subsidized or you wouldn't have highways to transport the fuel we burn in IC engines and it would cost $10 a gallon. Luckily there are choices in drivetrain available for those who don't want to run gasoline. If there were no alternatives maybe fuel would cost more?

These threads are always full of old school thinking, just like when old Henry though the Model T was all anyone would ever need.

I would never spend $19000 for an econobox for my kid. He got a used pickup truck and learned to keep it running. 345,000 miles on that truck...he won't give it up.
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Old 07-10-2017, 05:44 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Isuzusweet View Post
That's going to be the tough part for the auto industry; coming to grips with less service intervals, less parts to go wrong, so the front end (sale price) will have to increase to offset the reduced back end (service work). Of all the deterrents to going electric by a manufacturer, is losing the $10,000+++ dollars of service work an ICE vehicle requires over its lifetime.

Cheers
Tony
I don't see that being a significant problem. Even if manufacturers raised prices to account for the loss of revenue from repairs, the consumer would still be way ahead in the long run as only a small portion of the repair cost is profit. People are already willing to pay more upfront for a more reliable vehicle. I think that it's more likely that we'll see a change in the way dealerships operate. If fewer repairs are needed then dealerships won't need the big service departments, and maybe there will be a further reduction in the number of dealerships. I've only had my Prius into a Toyota dealership once since the warranty ran out. The few repairs I've needed have been done at an independent shop, or I've done them myself.
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Old 07-10-2017, 07:33 PM   #80
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As I sit in my V-8 pickup on I70, on the second day of 11 hours each day towing on the road, I would have to say that it's not looking likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne&Sam View Post
I hope you're not the driver........
Nope I was the passenger. We just returned from Yellowstone. It's a Loooong way there.
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