Real Tongue Weights 23FB, 25RB & F-150

[uraljohn]

Originally Posted by Genebuilder

Have you measured your 25 RBT actual. tongue weight with a Sherline or any other manner?

Yep, sure have with a Sherline. My good friend (2020 Lance Model 1985, could not convince him to buy an AS!) has a Sherline. Weighed it 2 separate times when loading up for our annual run to Melbourne, Fl. Both times within 40 LBS of the normal 940 tongue weight.

I have just under 2 million miles driving Class 8 Semi Tractor Trailers of all configurations. Been across the CAT Scales several hundred times. I am what you would call a freak when it come to a proper tow set up. Tire pressures, Lug nut torque, WD set up, ect. You get the picture.

[jeffb831]

Originally Posted by FredWilma

Just a note that Ford allow for their famous 150 lb driver in the payload. So you can effectively add 150 lb to the payload and then deduct actual weight of passengers and equipment. See photo from 2021 specification

I don't think that is from the correct part of the specifications.

According to the 2022 Trailering Guide (https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/d...et_r8_Aug8.pdf)

The 150# driver and passenger are included in the max trailering weight. (bottom of page 3 & 5)

The 150# times the number of seats is included in the max cargo capacity when using the truck as a slide in camper. (page 14)

The payload capacity is the GVWR - Curb Weight (which includes full fuel and fluids) and does not make an allowance for any passengers.

Also, according to the Ford Towing Calculator (https://www.ford.com/trucks/towing-g...cta-towingCalc) the Passenger weight is added to the payload, not included

[JJTX]

Originally Posted by TNOutback

New to the forum and considering purchasing our first Airstream. I am seeking input on real world tongue weights for the 23FBT and 25RBT trailers so I can run some accurate GVW and payload numbers. Several years ago I sold my Duramax and big travel trailer and went to a small 18’ trailer and a 2016 F-150 Supercrew 4x4. Now ready for more room, comfort. I love my truck, but I was shocked when I began running capacity calculations assuming even nominal increases over AS published unloaded tongue weights. There’s simply not much room in a 7000 lb GVWR truck to work with on these campers. I have a CAT scale weight of 5580 lbs on my truck with a full 36 gallon gas tank and me only. Adding our usual cargo in the truck, and assuming a 700 lb loaded tongue weight for a 23FB for instance, I have a thin margin of payload left, but I am over the GVW allowed for the truck even with the 23FB, never mind the 25RB!

I am interested in 23FBT and 25RBT owners’ measured tongue weights to improve my estimates, hoping I was too aggressive. I am not interested in ignoring the capacity ratings of my truck, as it seems many on this forum do!

The 25 foot airstreams are too big for F150's of nearly any configuration. I've only seen a few exceptions with trucks with the smaller frames that have heavy duty payload configurations, but these 25 footers need a 2500 frame. My F150 has the 7050 gross weight rating, and I would never -ever- attempt a 25 footer_+ travel trailer .

[DCPAS]

Originally Posted by JJTX

The 25 foot airstreams are too big for F150's of nearly any configuration. I've only seen a few exceptions with trucks with the smaller frames that have heavy duty payload configurations, but these 25 footers need a 2500 frame. My F150 has the 7050 gross weight rating, and I would never -ever- attempt a 25 footer_+ travel trailer .

Respectfully disagree since I am towing with a half ton SUV. Objectively, I am within all my numbers and, subjectively, it tows well and without drama.

[Dennis C]

I think the challenge when discussing 1/2 ton trucks and SUVs as tow vehicles is that the capabilities of vehicles in this class vary considerably. Some of them have payload ratings near 1,000 lbs. or less, and some exceed 2,000 lbs.

Asking if a 1/2 ton vehicle can tow a 25-footer is like asking if a man can carry 250 lbs. Some men can, and some men can’t.

Based on my numbers and my experience with my truck, I wouldn’t be comfortable using it to tow a 25-footer. I sometimes get close to my limits with the 23.

It’s important to look at the specifications and limits for the specific vehicle that’s being considered.

[2012FB]

Originally Posted by DCPAS

Respectfully disagree since I am towing with a half ton SUV. Objectively, I am within all my numbers and, subjectively, it tows well and without drama.

Could not agree more. After 6, 3/4 ton diesels my 2021 GMC 1500 6.2 gas with 10 speed is a far superior tow vehicle for my needs towing a new 2022 25'. I tow through the mountains of Colorado routinely. Been up and down the west coast and head to the east coast at the end of the month. Very relaxing and enjoyable tow vehicle. The new gas 1/2 tons are remarkable in my direct experience.

[superChop]

I am interested in your payload capacity and Rear axle rating. Our original TV was a half ton 4x2 with 1,400lb payload and less than 4,000 lb rear axle rating and normal truck tires. We had a lot of bulging on our sidewalls so we moved to E rated tires and solved that problem. However, we were at the payload limit with our topper, two passengers, and normal camping equipment, tool box, bikes, BBQ, and 6400 lb trailer. Plus, we were disappointed that we were over our rear axle rating by hundreds of lbs, as confirmed by visits to the CAT scales.

I looked at a lot of dealer lots in 2019 to find a F150 XLT with the Heavy Payload Package and overly optimistically looked for factory tow mirrors.

We ordered the SD and these discussions of weights disappear. The daily driver experience is not the same as a half ton, but small price to pay for the safety and comfort of the SD. Gas mileage is very similar between the 4.6L F150 and the 6.2L F250, so that is not even a discussion point since towing = poor gas mileage in trucks.

I did not find one truck, or one salesperson who knew anything about this option. And when I asked the salesmen what they thought I intended to do with increased payload, they said: “tow something”. Since they had that answer correct, I asked them why none of the trucks on the lot had factory tow mirrors, since many are used to tow even without the HDPP. And if you ordered HDPP, you still had to separately order the factory mirrors, which does not make sense. They nodded their heads and wanted me to become their sales manager!

[uraljohn]

Originally Posted by superChop

I am interested in your payload capacity and Rear axle rating. Our original TV was a half ton 4x2 with 1,400lb payload and less than 4,000 lb rear axle rating and normal truck tires. We had a lot of bulging on our sidewalls so we moved to E rated tires and solved that problem. However, we were at the payload limit with our topper, two passengers, and normal camping equipment, tool box, bikes, BBQ, and 6400 lb trailer. Plus, we were disappointed that we were over our rear axle rating by hundreds of lbs, as confirmed by visits to the CAT scales.

I looked at a lot of dealer lots in 2019 to find a F150 XLT with the Heavy Payload Package and overly optimistically looked for factory tow mirrors.

We ordered the SD and these discussions of weights disappear. The daily driver experience is not the same as a half ton, but small price to pay for the safety and comfort of the SD. Gas mileage is very similar between the 4.6L F150 and the 6.2L F250, so that is not even a discussion point since towing = poor gas mileage in trucks.

I did not find one truck, or one salesperson who knew anything about this option. And when I asked the salesmen what they thought I intended to do with increased payload, they said: “tow something”. Since they had that answer correct, I asked them why none of the trucks on the lot had factory tow mirrors, since many are used to tow even without the HDPP. And if you ordered HDPP, you still had to separately order the factory mirrors, which does not make sense. They nodded their heads and wanted me to become their sales manager!

The reason that you see a bunch of F150's with the Max Tow Pkg or even just a regular tow pkg is so the dealer can make some $$$$ when they install a set of factory mirrors for you. Runs around $1k. You can purchase aftermarket mirrors that look/function just like the factory tow mirrors for under $500.00. Takes about an hour per door to install yourself. Remember it is all about the $$$$$$.

[2012FB]

Originally Posted by superChop

I am interested in your payload capacity and Rear axle rating. Our original TV was a half ton 4x2 with 1,400lb payload and less than 4,000 lb rear axle rating and normal truck tires.

max payload 1558
GAWR F&R 3800

[Dennis C]

Originally Posted by 2012FB

max payload 1558
GAWR F&R 3800

I’m impressed that you’re able to make that work with a 25. My truck has front and rear GAWR of 3,950 lbs, GVWR of 7,200 lbs. and payload of 1,479 lbs.

When we pack our 23 heavy for a long trip I get very close on payload and GVWR. I could never tow a 25 without being over on several key capacity limits.

You must pack very lightly!

[DCPAS]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

I’m impressed that you’re able to make that work with a 25. My truck has front and rear GAWR of 3,950 lbs, GVWR of 7,200 lbs. and payload of 1,479 lbs.

When we pack our 23 heavy for a long trip I get very close on payload and GVWR. I could never tow a 25 without being over on several key capacity limits.

You must pack very lightly!

Our SUV is 1,552 payload and the rear axle is 4,380. There's only two of us and our dog. We don't load the truck with a lot, but there is enough to spare to include our Honda 2200 and more than a hundred pounds of extra stuff. Works for us.

[2012FB]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

I’m impressed that you’re able to make that work with a 25. My truck has front and rear GAWR of 3,950 lbs, GVWR of 7,200 lbs. and payload of 1,479 lbs.

When we pack our 23 heavy for a long trip I get very close on payload and GVWR. I could never tow a 25 without being over on several key capacity limits.

You must pack very lightly!

Let's see:

Me 180
Wife 110
Dog 65
RDS aluminum 50 gallon fuel tank 85
Trailer 860

Total without additional fuel 1,300 pounds

48 gallons of gas 291

Total with fuel 1,591

Oh my, I guess I am a few pounds over till I pull the first draw from the auxiliary fuel tank.

Everything else is in the trailer including the built-in Onan Generator.

I did install a RoadMaster Active Suspension kit to improve handling and keep the ride height correct when fully loaded.

Without the extra fuel, I am way under.

[Dennis C]

Nice.

I’m way under too, but we do pack heavily on occasion and I like the margin.

I think your example is a good one that helps people understand the benefit of knowing your numbers.

[2012FB]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

Nice.

I’m way under too, but we do pack heavily on occasion and I like the margin.

I think your example is a good one that helps people understand the benefit of knowing your numbers.

Each manufacturer calculates a certain "margin" to their respective maximum ratings. Third-party testing to the maximum requirements requires some margin to ensure passing. I am very confident my truck is not going to have any adverse issues or be unsafe when at or slightly over the maximum ratings. The "margin" from my perspective is built in, but that is just me.

[Dennis C]

Originally Posted by 2012FB

Each manufacturer calculates a certain "margin" to their respective maximum ratings. Third-party testing to the maximum requirements requires some margin to ensure passing. I am very confident my truck is not going to have any adverse issues or be unsafe when at or slightly over the maximum ratings. The "margin" from my perspective is built in, but that is just me.

For sure, and please don’t take my comments as criticism of your setup or your decisions. You’ve got something that works for you, just as I do. Again, it illustrates the point that there’s not a “one size fits all” answer to some of the questions that are asked on these forums about tow vehicles.

[TNOutback]

Originally Posted by 2012FB

Could not agree more. After 6, 3/4 ton diesels my 2021 GMC 1500 6.2 gas with 10 speed is a far superior tow vehicle for my needs towing a new 2022 25'. I tow through the mountains of Colorado routinely. Been up and down the west coast and head to the east coast at the end of the month. Very relaxing and enjoyable tow vehicle. The new gas 1/2 tons are remarkable in my direct experience.

What cab configuration do you have? If a crew cab, have you weighed your rig fully loaded at a CAT scale? I’ve looked at that GMC crew cab, and the GVWR is either 7000 or 7100 lbs depending on SLT/AT4 trim, essentially the same as my F-150 GVWR. The problem is not payload but GVWR it seems. Unless I’ve missed something, I don’t see the GMC/Chevy making the numbers either. I really want a 1/2 ton to work as I don’t want a 3/4 as my daily driver.

[SSquared]

Originally Posted by TNOutback

What cab configuration do you have? If a crew cab, have you weighed your rig fully loaded at a CAT scale? I’ve looked at that GMC crew cab, and the GVWR is either 7000 or 7100 lbs depending on SLT/AT4 trim, essentially the same as my F-150 GVWR. The problem is not payload but GVWR it seems. Unless I’ve missed something, I don’t see the GMC/Chevy making the numbers either. I really want a 1/2 ton to work as I don’t want a 3/4 as my daily driver.

I've been looking hard at the Chevy/GM 1500 pickups. The "Max Trailering" package is key. It raises the GVWR to 7300 pounds and raises the rear axle rating as well. I've test driven two used ones recently:

--Crew cab short bed 4x4 5.3L engine; RST (low-middle level trim), no sunroof, no bedliner, no running boards, Max Trailering: 2035 pounds payload shown on the sticker
--Crew cab standard bed 4x4 5.3L engine; LTZ (higher level trim), sunroof, bedliner, MultiFlex tailgate (which is heavy), Max Trailering: 1784 pounds payload

I had a chance to buy a unit with Max Trailering and the 3.0L diesel engine but did not even bother going to look at it, because people on other forums have reported payload stickers reading around 1600 pounds for a crew cab short bed model.

[JJTX]

Originally Posted by DCPAS

Respectfully disagree since I am towing with a half ton SUV. Objectively, I am within all my numbers and, subjectively, it tows well and without drama.

Just because you ' can do it ' does not mean its a good idea. Always being near maximum ratings as a general rule is not good practice.

I never said the truck cant-do-it. What I'm talking about is if you SHOULD do it.

Do you always bench press your maximum? No.

[mtbmitch]

Originally Posted by uraljohn

Very Interesting. We tow with a 2013 Ford E150 XLT Premium van. It has an 8600 LB GVWR. Yes, you read that correctly. An E150! Payload/cargo capacity is 2538 LBS per the door sticker. Front axle is 3700 LBS and rear axle is 5120 LBS. I looked high and low for 6 months before locating this van. It has every option offered by Ford with the exception of the V-10 engine. Tows the 2019 FC 25 RBT like a champ. I have met a few folks at RV parks that are a little skeptical until they see the door stickers for themselves. High-capacity half ton vehicles are out there. You have to know what to look for. We have owned the van for 6 years and it now has 118k miles on it.

I had an E-150 for 15 years. Vans are great and under rated which is fine. Plenty of room to keep mtb's, dirt bikes etc in a secure place and out of the rain. A van provides a nice place to change clothes after mountain biking from a trailhead. One small roof vent is also that is needed to deal with gas fumes from a motorcycle.

[DCPAS]

Originally Posted by JJTX

Just because you ' can do it ' does not mean its a good idea. Always being near maximum ratings as a general rule is not good practice.

I never said the truck cant-do-it. What I'm talking about is if you SHOULD do it.

Do you always bench press your maximum? No.

Do have any objective evidence for your statement? You know, there is also an argument that too much truck harms your trailer. Heck, that's in my owner's manual.