Real Tongue Weights 23FB, 25RB & F-150

[2012FB]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Proper loading...heavy stuff behind axles...???

The safest place for the heavy stuff is down low and centered over the axles. Moving it further rearward to lessen tongue weight can be a recipe for sway. Can't say how yours is loaded specifically, but whenever I hear someone mentioning this in connection with a discussion of tongue weight it raises concerns.

Not when I already have 1,150 pounds on the tongue and it is not a direct displacement.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by richard5933

It's an older Reese Dual Cam hitch. The chains are used to tension the spring bars.



Proper loading...heavy stuff behind axles...???

The safest place for the heavy stuff is down low and centered over the axles. Moving it further rearward to lessen tongue weight can be a recipe for sway. Can't say how yours is loaded specifically, but whenever I hear someone mentioning this in connection with a discussion of tongue weight it raises concerns.

Ok, I have and used to use a reese dual cam. Nice hitch. So, each chain link is 1.25" in WD adjustment. That's a lot. That's 10 full revolutions on a PP V2 jack, and on my rig results in 429# more spring bar end force, which I DO NOT like on the A-frame. Meanwhile that adjustment results in 151# less pounds on the RA; 101# more on the FA; and 50# more on the TA. Making my 51% FA return an 81% return!!!!

But, what are you going to do with gross chain adjustments? Insert a bolt in the chains to create a 5/8" movement? Play with head tilt to see if a bit less will fall somewhere in between? Order some V2 jacks and use with the Reese?

(BTW, the more head tilt the better for cornering stability, so be careful with that issue)

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by 2012FB

Not when I already have 1,150 pounds on the tongue and it is not a direct displacement.

It's not just about vertical weight transfers. The further those masses are from the TA, the more yaw inertia is created in a cornering/sway event. Where possible, (we are limited to available storage compartments/areas) keep all heavier objects as close to the TA as possible.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

...But, what are you going to do with gross chain adjustments? Insert a bolt in the chains to create a 5/8" movement? Play with head tilt to see if a bit less will fall somewhere in between? Order some V2 jacks and use with the Reese?

(BTW, the more head tilt the better for cornering stability, so be careful with that issue)

I've played around with a few different adjustments on this...I increased head tilt by one notch hoping it would enable me to halfway between 2 & 3 links hanging. The result was that it put the spring bars in a more parallel line with the a-frame, but didn't make a lot of difference in the weight adjustments - just 20 or so pounds.

I also tried things with a bolt between two links, hoping to shorten the chain length by half a link. It also didn't make the difference in the numbers I hoped it would. With the bolts in place and two links hanging I still had too little weight on the front axle. So far, the best way I've found is to go without the bolts and 3 full links hanging. This gives me the most stable steering control without too much WD.

It's all a balancing act, for sure.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by richard5933

I've played around with a few different adjustments on this...I increased head tilt by one notch hoping it would enable me to halfway between 2 & 3 links hanging. The result was that it put the spring bars in a more parallel line with the a-frame, but didn't make a lot of difference in the weight adjustments - just 20 or so pounds.



I also tried things with a bolt between two links, hoping to shorten the chain length by half a link. It also didn't make the difference in the numbers I hoped it would. With the bolts in place and two links hanging I still had too little weight on the front axle. So far, the best way I've found is to go without the bolts and 3 full links hanging. This gives me the most stable steering control without too much WD.



It's all a balancing act, for sure.

I wonder about installing a spacer between the snap up brackets and top of frame??? Enough reach and bolt bite????

[ROBERT CROSS]

SNIPxSxS "Properly loading the trailer can help as well. I deliberately put the heavy stuff behind the trailer axles.

I'm pretty sure...The weight should be spread as equally as possible over the axle/axels.

Bob
🇺🇸

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by richard5933

I think I'll have to run my weights again next time we're out towing to see exactly how things compare. The only weight I have for the truck alone is without the gear we typically carry while towing. The curb weights like this are 3,360 on the front axle and 3,400 on the rear axle.

With the WD hitch my typical travel weights are 3,220 front and 4,980 rear with lighter tension on the spring bars, and set one step higher tension puts the weights at 3,420 front and 4,740 rear. Seems like the one chain link difference moves about 200 pounds from my rear axle to the front. All the weights are well within the axle ratings.

With the higher tension the front fenders come back to within 1/2" of their position without the trailer attached and the steering feels good. With the lighter tension the fenders are another 1/2" higher and the steering feels much lighter.

There is only an 80-lb difference on the trailer axles between the two settings - either 300 or 380 pounds is being transferred to the trailer axles. Not sure if this is too high or okay, but the trailer has no signs of separation on either end. This is the hitch that the trailer has had installed since 1994, and the previous owner towed with a similar TV and settings.

To the original question on the thread, my tongue weight is at 1,000 pounds, +/- 50 depending on how the trailer is loaded.

You still need more tension, the front should be lower than unloaded or you're not distributing enough weight. Try another link or increase the angle on the hitch slightly. What I do is to hitch the trailer, then raise it up a bit to make it easy to get the next link on the chains, then lower it once everything is hooked up. I have 1000lb bars on my WD hitch. My front lowers around an inch from unloaded but I have a relatively high travel off-road suspension. If you're above your unloaded height in the front, you do not have enough WD and need adjustment or you need stiffer WD bars.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by bobzdar

You still need more tension, the front should be lower than unloaded or you're not distributing enough weight. Try another link or increase the angle on the hitch slightly. What I do is to hitch the trailer, then raise it up a bit to make it easy to get the next link on the chains, then lower it once everything is hooked up. I have 1000lb bars on my WD hitch. My front lowers around an inch from unloaded but I have a relatively high travel off-road suspension. If you're above your unloaded height in the front, you do not have enough WD and need adjustment or you need stiffer WD bars.

This is not true. Many vehicle manufacturers instructions state to return 50% of the weight removed after hitching. This will result in a fender height somewhat higher than the truck unhitched resting height.

From your description, you are way over 100% of the weight removed by receiver hitch weight. That is way too much.

[Bill M.]

I use a Reese dual cam too. Mine is on a 3/4 ton truck and use 800 lb bars. What I find is that if I put too much weight on the front axle passing trucks affect the rig more strongly. I think with the diesel engine it has all the weight it can handle well on the front axle already. Been a long while since I set it up and did weights. But I suspect I am close to returning all the weight to the front axle but under a little. And yes, 1 link difference is a big deal. My hitch head is tipped as far down as it will go. I hitch on 5, dangle 4. My hitched older 25' rig adds 800 lbs to the TV wt. I have never know what my actual tongue weight is. I have a 2000 lb payload sticker and was well under the axle ratings for both truck and trailer. I think it pulls good. I have only made one true emergency movement and the trailer stayed behind the truck just fine. Ditto on a couple of really hard stops when I let my attention drift. I started with 1000 lb bars. The 1000 lb bars were a whole lot stiffer than the 800 lb bars which I like better. One thing I do know for sure is that the truck brakes will stop the trailer and truck both. I had a disgusting number of failures of the wiring to the trailer brakes until I finally got it all solved. Among other things I learned I have to seat my 7 pin with a mallet since I am not strong enough to plug it in by hand. That last 1/8" of seating makes the difference.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by bobzdar

You still need more tension, the front should be lower than unloaded or you're not distributing enough weight. Try another link or increase the angle on the hitch slightly. What I do is to hitch the trailer, then raise it up a bit to make it easy to get the next link on the chains, then lower it once everything is hooked up. I have 1000lb bars on my WD hitch. My front lowers around an inch from unloaded but I have a relatively high travel off-road suspension. If you're above your unloaded height in the front, you do not have enough WD and need adjustment or you need stiffer WD bars.

Not sure about this... The way I have it set now with either 2 or 3 links I can get the weight on the front axle either just under or just over the unhitched weight. Not sure if the height of the fender is as important as getting proper weight on the axle. That's my goal.

Incidentally, my manual does not mention anything about how to properly set the WD hitch, just that it's required to exceed 500 lbs tongue weight.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Not sure about this... The way I have it set now with either 2 or 3 links I can get the weight on the front axle either just under or just over the unhitched weight. Not sure if the height of the fender is as important as getting proper weight on the axle. That's my goal.

Incidentally, my manual does not mention anything about how to properly set the WD hitch, just that it's required to exceed 500 lbs tongue weight.

There is a one to one correlation between the weight shifts on the front axle and change in fender height. If 1000# tongue weight raises fender 1" and removes 300# from FA, then moving 150# back to FA will lower it .5" and moving 300# to FA will return it to it's original height.

[jcl]

Agree with fender height being a good proxy for front axle load restoration.

I am not sure that 100% FALR is necessarily way too much. It may be over the manufacturer's guidance. That guidance may be influenced by how strong the receiver is, eg a lighter receiver may not be able to transfer as much weight, but it is cheaper for the manufacturer to supply than a heavier and stronger one. That is just speculation, but if in fact the vehicle handles better without as much weight on the front axle, then one has to wonder about how safe it is all the rest of the time it isn't hitched up or loaded up.

For a diesel pickup with a very heavy front weight bias, I can see the logic to returning less than 100%. But for a gasoline pickup or an SUV that likely has a better front/rear weight distribution to start with, I think of 100% FALR as the starting point, to get the load on the steering axle back to where it was unhitched. Testing will confirm how it feels at different FALR %.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

There is a one to one correlation between the weight shifts on the front axle and change in fender height. If 1000# tongue weight raises fender 1" and removes 300# from FA, then moving 150# back to FA will lower it .5" and moving 300# to FA will return it to it's original height.

I used the Reese with my first 25' AS...worked ok, but never really had anything to compare it to. Second 25' came with an Equalizer...did not like the way it loaded the sway bars, and actually one of them twisted and broke while parking, so I ended up getting my first Blue Ox, on the road in Phoenix. Dealer said he could get me any hitch I wanted, but recommended the Blue Ox S way Pro, for his reasons..he thought when adjusted properly, it was one of the best on the market especially for the money. He spent half hour showing me how to set up and make adjustments properly. Important point he showed me, the front fender should be no more than 1/2" difference off the ground, with the trailer loaded or unloaded, if the WDH is set up properly. Thats why I have purchased the Blue Ox with Sway Control for the last two Airstreams I purchased new....never had any issues following the instructions.

As for the "best" folks here claim is the Hensley or ProPride, all i can say is they sound like they are very stable also. Only comment I can share is I have watched 2 of them being installed; once at Alumalina last year, and once here in TX at a ralley in Johnson City 3 years back. Both times, the set up procedures took time to get right, and then I observed issues getting it right, when new owner tried to hitch up on his own, few days later. Took several tries to get hitched and going. I also have heard it can be a problem if on a slanted driveway or parking space; I don't know.

I am happy with the Blue Ox and Sway Control set up they use. It has contributed to helping us recover at least twice from very dangerous maneuvers while towing...of course, the right Tow Vehicle is also very important, as we all know...we all may not agree on which one that is, however!

[richard5933]

On my Suburban 2500 I can set the front axle to be either slightly under or slightly over the un-hitched weight. With it slightly under the steering feels light and too reactive to input. Slightly over (about 50 pounds) the un-hitched weight produces a very stable ride at 65 mph with the trailer in tow. Even with that, I've got another 1,000 pounds before my front axle is at GAWR so I don't see it as a problem there.

Could I have too much WD tension in these hitch settings? Possibly, but I see no sign of anything wonky on the trailer or the tow vehicle. From what I understand I'm towing pretty much as the trailer was towed since new in 1994, including with a similar tow vehicle. If I have to choose between too much WD tension and possible damage and too little WD tension and possible steering problems, I'll go with the too much. Unfortunately, I haven't found a way to get a setting between the too (tried the bolt through the chain thing, but it didn't really help much).

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by jcl

Agree with fender height being a good proxy for front axle load restoration.

I am not sure that 100% FALR is necessarily way too much. It may be over the manufacturer's guidance. That guidance may be influenced by how strong the receiver is, eg a lighter receiver may not be able to transfer as much weight, but it is cheaper for the manufacturer to supply than a heavier and stronger one. That is just speculation, but if in fact the vehicle handles better without as much weight on the front axle, then one has to wonder about how safe it is all the rest of the time it isn't hitched up or loaded up.

For a diesel pickup with a very heavy front weight bias, I can see the logic to returning less than 100%. But for a gasoline pickup or an SUV that likely has a better front/rear weight distribution to start with, I think of 100% FALR as the starting point, to get the load on the steering axle back to where it was unhitched. Testing will confirm how it feels at different FALR %.

I said his returning to 1% LOWER than original height was way too much. His vehicle manufacturer may require (or recommend 100%....some do. Mine does not, for 1500 PUs. 50% is the bogey. If I go over 75%, the rear is elevated and the steering feels "dead". Now, mind you, my particular truck is a maxtow with a higher capacity second stage leaf. 350 pounds more payload, due solely to the rear suspension.

100% may be the starting point for some mfrs or vehicle lines, but not all....not gm and Ford 1500/150 for sure.

[richard5933]

My owners manual makes no mention of how to set the WD hitch, just that one is required to use the full 1,000 tongue weight capacity.

I've felt that getting front axle loading back to where it was un-hitched provides the optimal control and steering response, but I'm pretty sure that this will be different for other vehicles and setups.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by richard5933

My owners manual makes no mention of how to set the WD hitch, just that one is required to use the full 1,000 tongue weight capacity.

I've felt that getting front axle loading back to where it was un-hitched provides the optimal control and steering response, but I'm pretty sure that this will be different for other vehicles and setups.

My memory serves that the height return verbiage wasn't always there, but I don't recall when it started appearing in the manuals. Memory also serves that GM FSSUV manuals recommended returning to original height when it did appear.

[dznf0g]

2010 suburban manual says to return to original height. (Ie. 100% return).

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by richard5933

My owners manual makes no mention of how to set the WD hitch, just that one is required to use the full 1,000 tongue weight capacity.

I've felt that getting front axle loading back to where it was un-hitched provides the optimal control and steering response, but I'm pretty sure that this will be different for other vehicles and setups.

What year is your burb?

[dznf0g]

Looks like 2004 was the first year the fender height verbiage appeared in the manual.