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Old 04-04-2017, 05:18 AM   #61
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More Confused than Ever w/ RR Tongue weight & AS

I want to thank everybody for taking their time to respond to my post. this was the first time i ever used a forum. it appears that anything less than sticking to the manufactures recommendations opens up some risk. I plan to travel on mostly flat lands, I could travel with the propane tanks not 100% filled to reduce some tongue weight, but i am still over the RR limit. i called Range Rover to speak to technicians and they were only willing to give the official answer. again thank you to Everybody. Can anybody give me a definitive Yes or No and Why? I am sure most of you are handy technical people, i was not born with that DNA. I will continue to call RR and try to get to the bottom. thanks again
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:39 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by TwinVee View Post
I want to thank everybody for taking their time to respond to my post. this was the first time i ever used a forum. it appears that anything less than sticking to the manufactures recommendations opens up some risk. I plan to travel on mostly flat lands, I could travel with the propane tanks not 100% filled to reduce some tongue weight, but i am still over the RR limit. i called Range Rover to speak to technicians and they were only willing to give the official answer. again thank you to Everybody. Can anybody give me a definitive Yes or No and Why? I am sure most of you are handy technical people, i was not born with that DNA. I will continue to call RR and try to get to the bottom. thanks again
I doubt that you will get any official reply directly from Land Rover that it is OK to load more tongue weight than the 550# limit in the owner's manual. I suspect that it has something to do with the mounts to the unibody or as someone mentioned, possibly something to do with UK/EU regulatory limitations. The reason I would go with is the unibody mounts as I believe that is what Andy at CanAm strengthens. Try speaking with him and a Land Rover service manager or senior service tech to see if they can give you any comfort in your decision. Good luck and let us know the outcome.
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Old 04-04-2017, 01:16 PM   #63
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issues

so a short wheelbase tow vehicle, can't think of a worse scenario, but lets take it by some issues:

1. my 25FB REQUIRES Class IV hitch. does your tow vehicle come equipped with that? when CanAm got done welding some stiffeners on, did they give you an engineered certificate of compliance indicating you meet Class IV hitch standards? well if you can't answer YES to both of these, any half backed attorney will have all of your assets in the plaintiffs pockets if you have the misfortune to be in an accident.

2. short wheel base vehicles are subject to twitching around which will be AMPLIFIED by the tow. no matter now good you think your driving skills might be, once that tow starts to oscillate, all the best with control.

3. can you see that LEO who is now on your tail? no tow mirrors? did you add some aftermarket ones to at least give you some possibility of seeing what is alongside and behind you?? well that LEO who can't see any mirrors is likely to pull you over, write you up and force you to disconnect and leave your tow until such time as you have adequate mirrors.

4. how many people are you taking along? the grandkids? where are you going to put all of the stuff that usually goes along with this sort of trip? your tow is notoriously lacking in storage space so how will you handle this?

5. are you sure your vehicle braking system is up to the tow? after all it was designed for a 'passenger' vehicle.

6. if you intend to tow, the first and foremost consideration is acquiring a 'real' tow vehicle. your fancy ass, MB, RR or Cad ain't it.
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Old 04-04-2017, 08:36 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by TwinVee View Post
I want to thank everybody for taking their time to respond to my post. this was the first time i ever used a forum. it appears that anything less than sticking to the manufactures recommendations opens up some risk. I plan to travel on mostly flat lands, I could travel with the propane tanks not 100% filled to reduce some tongue weight, but i am still over the RR limit. i called Range Rover to speak to technicians and they were only willing to give the official answer. again thank you to Everybody. Can anybody give me a definitive Yes or No and Why? I am sure most of you are handy technical people, i was not born with that DNA. I will continue to call RR and try to get to the bottom. thanks again


You may have to filter responses by each author's motivation, understanding and qualifications then know your same and make a decision.

I'm in a camp like this:

Motivation: nothing to sell, no sponsor, not beholden to any business: safety-first, very low risk tolerance, over-prepare for worst case scenario

Understanding: layman at best - 5 years (half years really) of towing experience, one Safe RV driver course at the start of my towing "career"

Qualifications: none - I'm neither an engineer nor a mechanic


I look at an issue like this and think - the manufacturer publishes those numbers for reasons. I don't doubt some of their considerations include limiting their own liability, and I expect it's only prudent that if testing showed a vehicle suffered damage towing 10,674# but showed no damage at 9,468# - the manufacturer might reasonably set a limit of 8,000#, knowing some percent of their users will violate their published limits. I also assume there's some actual engineering skill behind those conclusions and no one knows better than the manufacturer.

Some with engineering backgrounds are comfortable making all kinds of mods outside of MFG limits and have yet to be hurt by that or hurt others. Some stay in limits and never learn how to safely operate their in-spec rigs and cause horrific damage...

That said - with full disclosure of the camp I'm in, I just wouldn't do it. And no knock on CanAm who has made a generational business out of stuff like this, but if they or any shop couldn't certify a) that their mods result in capabilities above the published tolerances of the manufacturer, b) that their changes don't violate the manufacturer's warranty, and c) that they will hold you harmless for any criminal or civil action resulting from use of the rig - I absolutely would not have the mods done.

Everyone's mileage varies. Good luck!
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:53 PM   #65
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You don't know me and it's probable that we will never meet. I'm not an engineer or lawyer and I don't play one on TV. I do, however, own a company that deals with negligence and liability issues like these every day and previously owned one that ran over 30 delivery vehicles in the 30k GVW class and up. Bunch of normal by distribution standard accidents and one staggeringly stupid one by a driver I still mad at 20yrs later.

You can't alter the manufacturer ratings and nothing that CanAm does will change that. Plenty of people who dropped LSD are completely straight churchgoing parents today ... but we all know of at least one who isn't all there anymore. Towing is the same. It's fine, till it's not.

Please consider the ramifications of what can happen if you lose control of your combination if you exceed the posted numbers. Losing your life is your call. Taking the lives of the local high school band as you do so isn't so cool. Even more so when you find out later why those numbers were posted the way they were.

Barbara Bush had it right ... "Just say no"

Some lawsuit examples
http://www.hardworkingtrucks.com/imp...s-in-lawsuits/

Some law
http://www.hardworkingtrucks.com/pic...nd-liability/#

Some other viewpoints
http://fifthwheelst.com/altering_veh...ification.html
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:33 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by TwinVee View Post
I want to thank everybody for taking their time to respond to my post. this was the first time i ever used a forum. it appears that anything less than sticking to the manufactures recommendations opens up some risk. I plan to travel on mostly flat lands, I could travel with the propane tanks not 100% filled to reduce some tongue weight, but i am still over the RR limit. i called Range Rover to speak to technicians and they were only willing to give the official answer. again thank you to Everybody. Can anybody give me a definitive Yes or No and Why? I am sure most of you are handy technical people, i was not born with that DNA. I will continue to call RR and try to get to the bottom. thanks again
I am an engineer, not a lawyer, and an ex mechanic/service manager, but that won't help you, I am just another voice here. I don't sell any related products.

Land Rover won't tell you it is OK to load their stock hitch beyond what it is rated for. Not worth asking.

They do publish tow ratings that appear to show a higher tow rating than your trailer weight (as long as those ratings apply to your specific model), so the issue appears to be one of tongue weight, rather than tow rating. Check your specific vehicle for your tow rating.

When it comes to tongue weight, there is a rating for the stock receiver that Landrover supplies. If it isn't high enough, consider an aftermarket receiver. This doesn't change the rating of the stock receiver, I agree with the poster above on that, but it avoids the issue as you won't be using the stock receiver any longer. Depending on your specific model of Landrover, there are hitches that I saw from reputable companies that are rated for 800 lbs of tongue weight, and I only looked for a few minutes.

Landrover won't provide an opinion on an aftermarket hitch, it isn't what they sell. Reputable trailer and hitch suppliers will provide an opinion.

Whether you use the stock receiver and limit yourself to 550 lbs, or a different receiver with a higher capacity, you will still be limited by the payload of the tow vehicle, and the axle ratings, and the tire ratings. Those don't change. If the specific vehicle has a very low payload figure, then that vehicle may not be enough for you, your passengers, your tow vehicle cargo, and your trailer tongue weight. But if it is reasonable, and you don't plan to travel heavily loaded in the tow vehicle, it may be fine.

I would listen to those who tow with this vehicle. I owned a Landrover Discovery, but didn't tow with it. I think modern Landrovers are much more capable than my Discovery was, as they have lower profile tires and are more stable laterally.

Talk to CanAm if you want a professional opinion. They could advise you on what needs to be done to the hitch as well.

Jeff
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:11 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by AirstreamCSH View Post
You don't know me and it's probable that we will never meet. I'm not an engineer or lawyer and I don't play one on TV. I do, however, own a company that deals with negligence and liability issues like these every day and previously owned one that ran over 30 delivery vehicles in the 30k GVW class and up. Bunch of normal by distribution standard accidents and one staggeringly stupid one by a driver I still mad at 20yrs later.

You can't alter the manufacturer ratings and nothing that CanAm does will change that. Plenty of people who dropped LSD are completely straight churchgoing parents today ... but we all know of at least one who isn't all there anymore. Towing is the same. It's fine, till it's not.

Please consider the ramifications of what can happen if you lose control of your combination if you exceed the posted numbers. Losing your life is your call. Taking the lives of the local high school band as you do so isn't so cool. Even more so when you find out later why those numbers were posted the way they were.

Barbara Bush had it right ... "Just say no"

Some lawsuit examples
http://www.hardworkingtrucks.com/imp...s-in-lawsuits/

Some law
http://www.hardworkingtrucks.com/pic...nd-liability/#

Some other viewpoints
http://fifthwheelst.com/altering_veh...ification.html


Now THIS is some fascinating reading. I hadn't been able to find case law or legal info on this topic. I know enough about the civil legal system to get myself in trouble (or keep out of it in this case) and it stood to reason that those numbers, assigned by the factory, would be the only defense one might have in the face of a negligence claim.
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:34 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by TwinVee View Post
I want to thank everybody for taking their time to respond to my post. this was the first time i ever used a forum. it appears that anything less than sticking to the manufactures recommendations opens up some risk. I plan to travel on mostly flat lands, I could travel with the propane tanks not 100% filled to reduce some tongue weight, but i am still over the RR limit. i called Range Rover to speak to technicians and they were only willing to give the official answer. again thank you to Everybody. Can anybody give me a definitive Yes or No and Why? I am sure most of you are handy technical people, i was not born with that DNA. I will continue to call RR and try to get to the bottom. thanks again


As succinctly as I can... I assume you're in the boating business. Boats have a maximum occupant capacity. Say it's 5 people for some real small boat. You're talking about putting 8 on there. Can the boat handle it? In calm waters, without maneuvering much... surely it's not going to sink. But what if the water gets rough and someone gets thrown over and or hurt? I guarantee you it will matter then.

I went over this a thousand different ways before buying my tow vehicle which I (mostly my wife) wanted to be a Range. The bottom line for me was liability.

Remove the propane, remove the spare tire... still not even close. You have to also add back on the weight of the WD hitch which is probably 80lbs+... something I never took into account.

And yet, somewhere in this thread there is a picture of a white RR towing a 28ft+ Airstream.
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Old 04-05-2017, 10:26 PM   #69
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As succinctly as I can... I assume you're in the boating business. Boats have a maximum occupant capacity. Say it's 5 people for some real small boat. You're talking about putting 8 on there. Can the boat handle it? In calm waters, without maneuvering much... surely it's not going to sink. But what if the water gets rough and someone gets thrown over and or hurt? I guarantee you it will matter then.
The boat weight carrying capacity, in this example, would be the tow vehicle axle loadings. Good idea not to exceed them, or the "boat" may be swamped, as you say.

But the limiting factor here is the hitch receiver. It is nothing more than a bracket hung on the back, or stern in your example. Let's say you had a boat that was rated to carry all the weight you wanted to put in it. But it had a small boarding ladder hung on the stern, rated for less than your weight, and you are a big guy. What to do? Buy a bigger boat? Sure, that is one option. Use it and see if it stands up? Could hurt yourself if it breaks. Or just buy a stronger boarding ladder, so that you don't have to worry about it? And then carry on using your boat, within all the weight limits the manufacturer put on the vehicle itself, excepting the one on the small boarding ladder.


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And yet, somewhere in this thread there is a picture of a white RR towing a 28ft+ Airstream.
Perhaps it has other than the stock hitch receiver, which is what creates the artificially low tongue weight limitation.
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Old 04-06-2017, 04:09 AM   #70
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JCL - I'm unclear on how that works. Let's use my truck - it's got a hitch receiver with a 1500# TW capacity. Not being an engineer - I assume that rating comes from the receiver itself as well as its connection to the frame and the frame's ability to handle the dead weight and pressure from actual towing. If I put a receiver rated for 5000# TW on the truck, how do I know the truck components to which the new receiver is attached can handle those increases? Thanks!
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:16 AM   #71
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JCL - I'm unclear on how that works. Let's use my truck - it's got a hitch receiver with a 1500# TW capacity. Not being an engineer - I assume that rating comes from the receiver itself as well as its connection to the frame and the frame's ability to handle the dead weight and pressure from actual towing. If I put a receiver rated for 5000# TW on the truck, how do I know the truck components to which the new receiver is attached can handle those increases? Thanks!
Exactly. Hitch receivers are chosen in accordance with other components of a vehicle. You may be able to put an aftermarket hitch receiver that has a slightly higher rating (say 20% more than the OEM) without affecting the chassis, suspension, vehicle stability and handling, etc. But (and this is an extreme case) you cannot just put a class IV receiver on a Miata and say it can now tow 15,000# because the receiver is rated as such.

These figures are exact and are calculated to the single digit. For example, Mercedes Benz GLS 550 has a receiver rating of 600#. Mercedes Benz GLS 63 (the AMG version with sport suspension) has only a receiver rating of 309#. Clearly, the limitation here is not the receiver or the chassis or the connection between them, but more likely the the suspension and tires.

JCL is vastly experienced with autos (much more so than me). It puzzles me why he insists on something thats clearly not correct.
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:27 AM   #72
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Rostam - just to be clear, I'm not making a point in my post, I'm asking a question based on a non-existent engineering background on my part. I shared some assumptions but I have no idea if those are accurate understandings or not. In your example, the Miata isn't designed for towing to begin with - and while I like the extreme example to make a point, I'm trying to understand in a more real example (maybe my 1500-5000# TW example is too extreme as well, now that I think of it).

Maybe we just stick with the Range Rover and the 550# TW limit set by the mfg. If we could take my 1500# receiver off my truck and bolt it to the RR, would that act alone enable the RR to handle up to 1500# TW? If so, why? If not, why not? What considerations are there for this kind of thing?

Apologies for the lack of clarity - I'm really just trying to understand the concept (ref. my comments about the "camp" I'm in...). Thanks!
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:39 AM   #73
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Rostam - just to be clear, I'm not making a point in my post, I'm asking a question based on a non-existent engineering background on my part. I shared some assumptions but I have no idea if those are accurate understandings or not. In your example, the Miata isn't designed for towing to begin with - and while I like the extreme example to make a point, I'm trying to understand in a more real example (maybe my 1500-5000# TW example is too extreme as well, now that I think of it).

Maybe we just stick with the Range Rover and the 550# TW limit set by the mfg. If we could take my 1500# receiver off my truck and bolt it to the RR, would that act alone enable the RR to handle up to 1500# TW? If so, why? If not, why not? What considerations are there for this kind of thing?

Apologies for the lack of clarity - I'm really just trying to understand the concept (ref. my comments about the "camp" I'm in...). Thanks!
Understood.

Here is what my research indicates: I do not know of a single unibody vehicle (by any manufacturer whether domestic, European, or Asian) that has a receiver rating of 800# (or more). If these vehicles could handle more, I'm sure some manufacturer would take advantage of that. My understanding is that unibody vehicles cannot handle the forces applied by higher rated receivers (in conjunction with WDH use). The issue seems to be both chassis strength and hitch unibody connection. Also, the independent suspension on unibody vehicles cannot handle the load that solid axle does. IMO, these numbers are not pulled out of a hat and are not intentionally lowered (auto makers want to make money not lose it). The fact that Mercedes says the hitch can carry 309# (and not 310 or 300) shows there is some calculation (or simulation) done to get to this number.
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:59 AM   #74
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Towing with Range Rover

As a the VP/GM of a Ford dealership for 23 years I can tell you from harsh experience that when you exceed the GVWR and tow ratings of any vehicle, knowingly or not, you can be held liable in accident situations.
I'm sad to say at some point early in my time as a General Manager, one of our commercial sales guys sold a truck to a guy that was severely underrated for the travel trailer he intended to tow. The customer gave us all the specifications of the TT so my sales guy should have known better. Heck, he had over 15 years experience! But, he assured the customer the truck would "do the job". The story ends badly. While towing through the mountains of North Carolina the truck and trailer rolled over and the customer was rendered a quadriplegic. Of course the family sued us based on the lawyers investigation of...you guessed it...tow vehicle ratings for that size trailer. We had no real leg to stand on and our insurance company settled for quite a tidy sum. But, regardless of the amount it will never bring back the use of the guy's limbs and restore his life as he knew it.
That's about as real world as it gets. Let your conscience be your guide.
When I see a trailer with such a nose down position as the white Range Rover picture posted in this thread I have to question is the tow vehicle overloaded? Apparently, the trailer in this photo even has a ProPride WD hitch.
Disclaimer: I am retired now and have nothing to sell, nor do I own a share of stock in any of the Big 3 auto companies. Plus I drive a Dodge truck now, not a Ford.
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:17 AM   #75
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As a the VP/GM of a Ford dealership for 23 years I can tell you from harsh experience that when you exceed the GVWR and tow ratings of any vehicle, knowingly or not, you can be held liable in accident situations.
I'm sad to say at some point early in my time as a General Manager, one of our commercial sales guys sold a truck to a guy that was severely underrated for the travel trailer he intended to tow. The customer gave us all the specifications of the TT so my sales guy should have known better. Heck, he had over 15 years experience! But, he assured the customer the truck would "do the job". The story ends badly. While towing through the mountains of North Carolina the truck and trailer rolled over and the customer was rendered a quadriplegic. Of course the family sued us based on the lawyers investigation of...you guessed it...tow vehicle ratings for that size trailer. We had no real leg to stand on and our insurance company settled for quite a tidy sum. But, regardless of the amount it will never bring back the use of the guy's limbs and restore his life as he knew it.
That's about as real world as it gets. Let your conscience be your guide.
When I see a trailer with such a nose down position as the white Range Rover picture posted in this thread I have to question is the tow vehicle overloaded? Apparently, the trailer in this photo even has a ProPride WD hitch.
Disclaimer: I am retired now and have nothing to sell, nor do I own a share of stock in any of the Big 3 auto companies. Plus I drive a Dodge truck now, not a Ford.
Good story.

The Range Rover in the picture does not necessarily appear to me to be overloaded. The back end of the TV seems level. I believe the hitch height could be increased to level the trailer out a little better.
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:20 AM   #76
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Good story.

The Range Rover in the picture does not necessarily appear to me to be overloaded. The back end of the TV seems level. I believe the hitch height could be increased to level the trailer out a little better.


Agreed, upon further review.
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:59 AM   #77
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We tow our 31' 1978 Airstream with a Jeep Grand Cherokee Diesel. It does a great job. We have the airbag suspension. It's not a problem. We just set up the hitch with the Jeep off. 28-30 mpg's when not towing and 16-18 mpg's when towing is awesome compared to our old tow vehicle. Chevy suburban with a 5.3L V8. We were getting 11 mpg's towing and 17 without the trailer.
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Old 04-06-2017, 10:49 AM   #78
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Interesting reading.

I stand int the camp that the Range Rover is an excellent TV. But I would not exceed any of the weight ratings.

Disclaimer - I own an LR3, but do not pull my AS with it.
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Old 04-06-2017, 10:55 AM   #79
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(...)
I'm sad to say at some point early in my time as a General Manager, one of our commercial sales guys sold a truck to a guy that was severely underrated for the travel trailer he intended to tow. The customer gave us all the specifications of the TT so my sales guy should have known better. Heck, he had over 15 years experience! But, he assured the customer the truck would "do the job". The story ends badly. While towing through the mountains of North Carolina the truck and trailer rolled over and the customer was rendered a quadriplegic. Of course the family sued us based on the lawyers investigation of...you guessed it...tow vehicle ratings for that size trailer. We had no real leg to stand on and our insurance company settled for quite a tidy sum.(...)
Just trying to understand the logic - I though dealerships are in business to sell the cars and not to advise on the towing capabilities of the vehicles (apart from showing the mfg specs). I am really struggling with understanding why any car dealership would be liable for the actions of the customers. Maybe your contract covered this kind of advisory, but I doubt it...
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Old 04-06-2017, 11:11 AM   #80
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Just trying to understand the logic - I though dealerships are in business to sell the cars and not to advise on the towing capabilities of the vehicles (apart from showing the mfg specs). I am really struggling with understanding why any car dealership would be liable for the actions of the customers. Maybe your contract covered this kind of advisory, but I doubt it...


It's simple. Attorneys can and will sue anyone involved in a case. Ford was absolved because they clearly show the towing capabilities of their trucks in writing in multiple places with all the proper disclaimers. Our salesman, on the other hand, clearly knew the weight and dimensions of the trailer to be pulled. He also "recommended" the particular truck the customer purchased, which was not adequate based on Ford's ratings. The customer relied on that recommendation to make the purchase. As I said, our insurance company settled with the customer. It did not go to court. We may have ultimately prevailed in court but the cost to do so may have exceeded the cost of the settlement. That was their call.
My point was not our liability, if any, it was using an underrated vehicle to pull any trailer can be dangerous and have catastrophic results.
While many have towed with the different vehicles mentioned in this thread "with no problem" that does not preclude that it will not happen to someone else or them in future. I have had homeowners insurance for 40 years but my house has never burned down or flooded. Do I still need insurance just because nothing has ever happened?
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