Loose interior skin

[steilkurve]

Hey all.

Noticed an area in our new 22 GT 25FB where the interior skin is loose. It’s right around the second AC’s air intake above the bed.

There are two rivets that look perfectly attached to the skin but they don’t seem solidly fastened to the rib behind. When I push, the skin goes up, stops at something behind (assume rib) and then comes back down when released.

Pictures worth a thousand words: https://youtu.be/iFRaP9-xsLQ

What could be the root cause here? Holes in the rib too big for the rivet or skin not pushed hard enough against the rib when initially riveted?

I was thinking of drilling out the head with an ATS-type tool, then drilling out the remainder as I do when a rivet pops and finally putting in a new rivet.

Would anyone recommend a different approach to fixing? I should go with a larger rivet? Do rivets with the same-sized heads but larger shanks exists?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

[GOUSC]

I was wondering if you could remove your AC vent intake and use your phone to take a picture of what’s going on. Could just be the rivet never reached the rib and you drill it out and replace. Maybe they cut the sheet too short where it won’t reach the rib?

Hopefully someone with more experience than I could chime in.

[majorairhead]

I just did several interior rivets. Some are loose from the inner side yet still have the visible rivet head attached. Yours likely meet this criteria.

1/8 inch drill bit, drill em out, and put new ones in. Airstream factory uses aluminum rivet with a steel mandrel, 1/8th by 3/8th. A rivet from Arrow at the big box meeting said criteria will work fine. Did for me.

Make sure you tape around the hole, 3 layers painters tape, real close to the hole. The rivet gun will bounce when she snaps off, protects the surrounding aluminum.

Make sure you push up tight against inner skin as you work the rivet handle, keep that skin tight to the rib up there while you're doing it.

A well respected member here uses lath screws. I like the idea. If the rivets pop again, I'm going with lath screws.

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by majorairhead

I just did several interior rivets. Some are loose from the inner side yet still have the visible rivet head attached. Yours likely meet this criteria.

1/8 inch drill bit, drill em out, and put new ones in. Airstream factory uses aluminum rivet with a steel mandrel, 1/8th by 3/8th. A rivet from Arrow at the big box meeting said criteria will work fine. Did for me.

Make sure you tape around the hole, 3 layers painters tape, real close to the hole. The rivet gun will bounce when she snaps off, protects the surrounding aluminum.

Make sure you push up tight against inner skin as you work the rivet handle, keep that skin tight to the rib up there while you're doing it.

A well respected member here uses lath screws. I like the idea. If the rivets pop again, I'm going with lath screws.

Thanks. Any tips on drilling out a rivet with the head still on? Worry the drill bit will spin out of control and onto the skin. I guess I could start real slow but stuff happens! I’ve drilled out plenty of popped rivets but none with the head still on.

[Ray Eklund]

The ceiling vents have four screws on mine. I did not back them out, but you may be able to gain access to look at the problem pop rivets. I did snug them up just a little bit, as there probably is very little metal securing the panel to the ceiling.

When I used my palm, I noticed there was lots of play, as the panel did not look like the opposite side... less curve and a flat area. Then found two other pop rivets with play.

My removal was with what I had available. A small screwdriver straight edge that was thin. The rivet head was not secure to the aluminum it was to secure. I took that and placed it at the edge between the rivet and skin. With a small hammer that would be used in leather work... I carefully tapped. The head was coming out so I used a small wire cutter, it slid into the space and cut the rivet.

I then, did not use another pop rivet. You do what you want.

I used a 1/2" Lath Screw and battery screw driver to drive the screw into the rivet/rivet hole that would secure the Screw and the interior Skin. It went in snug. I did the same to the other two pop rivets that were not secure.

Two pop rivets on the curb side (right) and one pop rivet on the front street side (left).

The caveat is not to hit the screwdriver too hard, but solid. You do not want it to scratch the aluminum you would otherwise see. You also do not want to cut into the skin aluminum, by keeping the screwdriver blade (thinner the better) from cutting through the rivet body and into the skin. It took little effort, but I am a Neanderthal and handy, as the Wife will tell you. I can fix most anything... expect broken glass.

I use Lath Screws from Lowes as they appear to be Stainless, sharp and once driven into the rivet hole... should last longer than a replacement pop rivet.

Go ahead and drill it out and use a pop rivet. My trailer is not an antique and by the time I sell it... it may be and nobody will give it one thought, one way or the other. I already like the look... rather modern artistic.

If something fails... I use something better and stronger. MY Choice... Lath Screw. They have a special head that holds a wider area. If you are not careful, you could easily overt tighten the Lath Screw and it will leave a dimple. You may already have it from the gap between the skin and frame.

If this post seems long... Pick forty words you like and forget the rest.

[majorairhead]

Originally Posted by steilkurve

Thanks. Any tips on drilling out a rivet with the head still on? Worry the drill bit will spin out of control and onto the skin. I guess I could start real slow but stuff happens! I’ve drilled out plenty of popped rivets but none with the head still on.

Use a good drill bit. I just sat my bit right square on the hole of the rivet and drilled it out. The bit was guided straight in. The rivet head actually pops off in short order, and likely will slide right up on the bit. Take that little rivet head off the bit and drill out the rest of the rivet.

Tape around the thing. Use masking tape, or painters tape. Go 3 or 4 layers thick with the tape, even more if you want. Tape real close to the rivet, right up against it.....gives some protection to the surrounding area.

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by majorairhead

Use a good drill bit. I just sat my bit right square on the hole of the rivet and drilled it out. The bit was guided straight in. The rivet head actually pops off in short order, and likely will slide right up on the bit. Take that little rivet head off the bit and drill out the rest of the rivet.

Tape around the thing. Use masking tape, or painters tape. Go 3 or 4 layers thick with the tape, even more if you want. Tape real close to the rivet, right up against it.....gives some protection to the surrounding area.

Thanks. Will give it a go. Another question. Got the standard rivets for the interior skin. In case the rib hole is too large, do you know of a rivet with the same head size as the originals but with a thicker shank?

[richard5933]

If the rivet is spinning while you drill you've got to find some way of holding it steady. If you have access to the back side, a pair of needle nose pliers is fine. If you don't have access, something like a plastic scraper blade wedged under on edge of the rivet head is often enough to hold it still while you slowly drill it out.

[majorairhead]

I think if that rib hole is too large then a move up in rivet size would be in order. Or use a lath screw per Ray's advice. If the rivets I just replaced don't hold, I'm going to lath screws. My gut feeling is you'll be ok with the 1/8 inch rivet. Just make sure to hold that rivet tool tight to the ceiling, squeeze it a complete pull the first time, and then the second squeeze the mandrel should snap off. Tape it up good around and real close to the rivet hole, because my bet is the rivet tool will jump a wee bit to the side of the hole, as mine did, the tape saving the day

[pjshier]

All excellent pointers. Two more if still concerned about a wandering drill bit: spring loaded nail set/punch with a super sharp point. We use them in aluminum aircraft to provide a dimple in the crown of the rivet. Place the sharp point in the center and push - it gathers up pressure and releases it all at once in the form of a "snap" that dimples the rivet face. Push straight.

Biggest help is making sure you have good reach and footing, along with a sharp bit. Stand on something solid if you are not able to get a good look at the rivet face/bit meeting surface to assure perpendicular approach. Also can help achieve bracing for your forearm as you hold the drill.

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by richard5933

If the rivet is spinning while you drill you've got to find some way of holding it steady. If you have access to the back side, a pair of needle nose pliers is fine. If you don't have access, something like a plastic scraper blade wedged under on edge of the rivet head is often enough to hold it still while you slowly drill it out.

Good tips. Tx. I got the ATS rivet removal tool. If needed, that would deal with the spinning rivet.

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by pjshier

All excellent pointers. Two more if still concerned about a wandering drill bit: spring loaded nail set/punch with a super sharp point. We use them in aluminum aircraft to provide a dimple in the crown of the rivet. Place the sharp point in the center and push - it gathers up pressure and releases it all at once in the form of a "snap" that dimples the rivet face. Push straight.

Biggest help is making sure you have good reach and footing, along with a sharp bit. Stand on something solid if you are not able to get a good look at the rivet face/bit meeting surface to assure perpendicular approach. Also can help achieve bracing for your forearm as you hold the drill.

Wow. You've clearly done this before. Thanks. Appreciate it. I got the ATS rivet removal tool. Feel like this may be my best protection against the feared wandering bit.

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

The ceiling vents have four screws on mine. I did not back them out, but you may be able to gain access to look at the problem pop rivets.

Thanks for your reply and sorry for my belated thanks. Been consumed by other work!

I finally got around to removing the ceiling vents. Unfortunately, those two rivets are on the other side of the nearby rib so can’t see what’s going on with them.

I did noticed that there seems to be reflectix between the rib and skin. Maybe that’s where the gives comes from though rivets would have easily compressed.

At any rate, I removed the old rivets and replaced them with new 1/8th ones. Held to the skin fine but no luck grabbing anything behind. I could still push the skin in. I then tried 5/32s. Slightly more snug but there was still play. I finally replaced one of the 5/32s with a 3/16. No change. Still plays…

So, I’m feeling like for some reason there is nothing for the rivets to grab behind those those holes. Odd as they seem to be under the rib. Maybe they are slightly off of the rib?

I’m now left with different sized rivets that didn’t fix my issue. Not a huge deal but now thinking I should have just let it be. Skin would be loose but at least there wouldn’t be different looking rivets.

Any other ideas of things I should try? All thoughts welcome!

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by majorairhead

I think if that rib hole is too large then a move up in rivet size would be in order. Or use a lath screw per Ray's advice. If the rivets I just replaced don't hold, I'm going to lath screws. My gut feeling is you'll be ok with the 1/8 inch rivet. Just make sure to hold that rivet tool tight to the ceiling, squeeze it a complete pull the first time, and then the second squeeze the mandrel should snap off. Tape it up good around and real close to the rivet hole, because my bet is the rivet tool will jump a wee bit to the side of the hole, as mine did, the tape saving the day

Thanks. See my update above. Moved up sizes. No luck! I’m feeling like somehow the rivets there are barely on the edge of the rib, either because the rib was indented in that spot somehow or the factory drilled the hole slightly off of it.

I suppose I could drill new holes but that would look worse than the different sizes of rivets.

As I said above, all ideas welcome!

[SSquared]

Did you try longer rivets? Maybe the gap is such that a short rivet is not reaching the rib. I've seen rivets in three lengths, the longest of which is 1/2 inch.

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by SSquared

Did you try longer rivets? Maybe the gap is such that a short rivet is not reaching the rib. I've seen rivets in three lengths, the longest of which is 1/2 inch.

Hmmm. Good point. Longest I had was 1/4. Wouldn’t that be sufficient to reach the rib, even if there was a bit of réflectif between the skin and rib?

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by steilkurve

Hmmm. Good point. Longest I had was 1/4. Wouldn’t that be sufficient to reach the rib, even if there was a bit of réflectif between the skin and rib?

1/4" rivets don't have much of a reach. Just the two layers of metal would eat up most of that, and then you have the Reflexic.

Were you able to see the hole in the rib?

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by richard5933

1/4" rivets don't have much of a reach. Just the two layers of metal would eat up most of that, and then you have the Reflexic.

Were you able to see the hole in the rib?

Strike that. Sorry. I double checked the box and the 5/32 rivets were indeed 1/2 grip range. The 3/16 I subsequently replaced one of the 5/32 with was 1/4 grip range. Should I try 3/16 x 1/2?

And no, I couldn’t see a rib like I normally see when replacing a rivet. One whole felt like drilling into thin air. The other one had a piece of metal on one side, more like skin than rib though there’s no skin overlapping there.

How wide are the ribs? Given I see one side from the air intake grill, it could help determine if those holes are just too far out.

[steilkurve]

So I thought about this some more and here are the next things I’m going to try:

1) Drill out the two rivets using my ATS removal tool.

2) Long shot but I will remove the air intake grill and try to slip my hand between the rib and skin to try and determine if there’s anything the rivets can actually grip into.

3) if I can get in there and there is nothing to grip onto aside from the skin, I’ll try to place a 1/8 rivet backup plate to go back to 1/8 rivets. If these are not going to fasten the skin to anything, might as well have them look all the same. Might also consider adding a brand new 1/8 rivet closer to the vent grill where i can see the rib to actually support the skin.

4j If it looks like there’s something to grab onto, I’ll try Stanley’s 5/8 grip range rivets, slightly longer than the 1/2 I tried yesterday.

And last recourse, will simply be putting back in 3/16 short rivets to plug the holes.

Please feel free to talk me into or out of these ideas!

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by steilkurve

So I thought about this some more and here are the next things I’m going to try:

1) Drill out the two rivets using my ATS removal tool.

2) Long shot but I will remove the air intake grill and try to slip my hand between the rib and skin to try and determine if there’s anything the rivets can actually grip into.

3) if I can get in there and there is nothing to grip onto aside from the skin, I’ll try to place a 1/8 rivet backup plate to go back to 1/8 rivets. If these are not going to fasten the skin to anything, might as well have them look all the same. Might also consider adding a brand new 1/8 rivet closer to the vent grill where i can see the rib to actually support the skin.

4j If it looks like there’s something to grab onto, I’ll try Stanley’s 5/8 grip range rivets, slightly longer than the 1/2 I tried yesterday.

And last recourse, will simply be putting back in 3/16 short rivets to plug the holes.

Please feel free to talk me into or out of these ideas!

Before heading out to the trailer and trying the above, I called Airstream tech support. I always find them insightful.

The tech thought that maybe the skin there had been left unattached to the rib by design. He said that sometimes after bringing in the furniture and installing it, the skin buckles in certain places so they loosen it by detaching some rivets from the rib... He suggests to just plug the holes with rivets and not try to fasten them to the rib.

Making me think I should have left it alone from the get go!

What does everyone think about this?