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CanoeStream · 03-20-2006, 06:07 PM

Carol -- I'd think you'd get a number of informed comments if you started this up as its own thread.

There is even a member, axleman, who used to deal ... you guessed it! Might be worth a PM to get him to chime in.

Good luck! I've not heard anything bad about either but then I'm the opposite of expert in this area. I've got Dexter. Sounds like a tough business with low margins.

JohnnieWinon · 03-20-2006, 06:42 PM

it has been interesting to read this thread. I've been quiet, and rather disappointed in several areas since taking delivery in oct.
I've wanted an AirStream since seeing a WB gathering at Bull Shoals Ark when i was a kid.

I took for granted that after 75 years AS had the quality control wired.
I was wrong.
When an object such as AirStream and in particular the CCD is constructed, it is about detail as well as the big picture.
The big picture is beautiful.
The detail is pretty bad.
I have outlets that are crooked, several.
My shower leaked bad. I had the dealer try to fix it twice. He messed up the bathroom with silicone, pulled things apart that won't fit back together so bad that I'm fearful to ever bring it in for anything.
Lights that didn't work,
Much of the edging around the counters and tables have come loose, impossible to reattach.
My front window will not open, at this point i am scared that i will break it.
The head pad over the door is not only crooked it is such a crooked eyesore that i hardly eat at the dinette that faces it. The dealer said it really can't be attached after removing.
It just amazes me that purchasing an American Icon such as AirStream has such poor quality control. If this was a car or even one of my motos, i would have taken it back and demanded my $. I have a Dodge Ram Cummins 98, going on 200k as a tow veh. and it has had 1/10th of the problems.
Before the AirStream i had a StarCraft camper, very few detail problems, the big picture was not as pretty though.
I like the AS, but what is it with quality????

2airishuman · 03-20-2006, 06:55 PM

johnnie......

you should not accept this level of fit, finish, and function related trouble....

sure, your dealer may not have the skill or experience to fix the trailer properly....

that could be a whole thread......

if you have any warranty time left.......

take a trip to the factory, with a list, and a scheduled appt.....and get every thing as near perfect as possible ...

they do great work......and know know to solve almost all of the build quality issues...

but you have got to act on it, and take the trip, and spend a few days...

at least the camping is free.......and so is all the repair work.....while your warranty is in effect.....

by the way you have a 2005? or an 06?

there is another very long........thread on the 05s........this is the 06 thread...

find the 05 thread and read a bit.......

then make that factory appointment......i did and they saved the day....and my relationship with the trailer.....

cheers
2air'

flyfisher · 03-20-2006, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

johnnie......

you should not accept this level of fit, finish, and function related trouble....

sure, your dealer may not have the skill or experience to fix the trailer properly....

that could be a whole thread......

if you have any warranty time left.......

take a trip to the factory, with a list, and a scheduled appt.....and get every thing as near perfect as possible ...

they do great work......and know know to solve almost all of the build quality issues...

but you have got to act on it, and take the trip, and spend a few days...

at least the camping is free.......and so is all the repair work.....while your warranty is in effect.....

by the way you have a 2005? or an 06?

there is another very long........thread on the 05s........this is the 06 thread...

find the 05 thread and read a bit.......

then make that factory appointment......i did and they saved the day....and my relationship with the trailer.....

cheers
2air'

While I agree with part of your advice, 2air', that Johnnie should not accept these problems, and the factory does (reasonably) good service work, I don't agree that he should simply pack his bags and drive to the factory in Jackson Center, OH at his own expense. (What is it, 1000 miles or more one way for him?)

The guys at the factory have produced this crap for years on end (anybody ever heard about leaking showers before?), they've got more than a small handful of dealers who are either incapable or unwilling to provide adequate service, the warranty policy requires only that the trailer be returned to an authorized factory service center (i.e. dealer) for warranty repairs, and yet all of us (myself included) keep going to the factory at our own expense to get work done that should have been corrected before these trailers left the factory in the first place.

There is something seriously wrong with this picture.

John

2airishuman · 03-20-2006, 07:48 PM

hi flyfisher....

i agree with your statements.....completely

-fit/finish/functional quality and some parts/trim/design are unacceptable....

-the service side of the dealer network is weak...except for a few....

i've had a couple of horror story experiences at dealers....that i have yet to share here......someday maybe.....really awful stuff..

-we should not have to bear all of the expense going to j.c.......to get it done correctly.......on our own time......

we've got to hold 'em accountable,
not accept delivery when new...and so on.....

but once you are in this mess, if ya let the warranty lapse without getting the work done.....well

i spent significant face time, with the customer service boss, over a 4 day visit, expressing this......i see no signs anything changed.....but i'm gonna go again this year, and express it again.....

cheers
2air'

Mike Lewis · 03-20-2006, 08:16 PM

Johnnie---The things you describe are identical with the problems we had with an 04 16' CCD. I think maybe one of those guys that installs interior components has a short leg as everthing was crooked from the dinnette table to the tank monitor panel to the wall plugs, EVERYONE of them. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems the majority of quality complaints I read of seem to be from the CCD models, the shorter ones in particular. Perhape Silvertwinki would like to start a survey of those particular models. We have since traded to an 05 25' Classic then to an 06 30' Classic. There is no comparison in the quality of the details. I'm wondering if the same people work both products, if more attention is given the more expensive models, or if it was just coinsidence. What about it twinkie------pieman

**jcanavera** · 03-20-2006, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

EVERYONE of them. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems the majority of quality complaints I read of seem to be from the CCD models, the shorter ones in particular. Perhape Silvertwinki would like to start a survey of those particular models.

I've always contended that its harder to build one of the shiney skinned inside CCD units. No margin for error, no ability to cover up the miscues with the wall covering. Materials are skinner, don't have as much bulk and overlap. I'm not really sure if the Classics are built better much more than the materials used in them cover more of the sins.

The other thing is that as the model line grows along with the interior components, the work force may not have the expertise. Consider the fact that if you go back about 4 years, you had the Bambi, Safai, and Classic. And really the Safari's were pretty much Classics with lighter weight interiors. As the new model lines have been added, the variance in the interiors becomes greater. Margin for error grows.

I think that this is how a lot of the problems occur.

Jack

lewster · 03-20-2006, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

hi flyfisher....

i agree with your statements.....completely

-fit/finish/functional quality and some parts/trim/design are unacceptable....

-the service side of the dealer network is weak...except for a few....

i've had a couple of horror story experiences at dealers....that i have yet to share here......someday maybe.....really awful stuff..

-we should not have to bear all of the expense going to j.c.......to get it done correctly.......on our own time......

we've got to hold 'em accountable,
not accept delivery when new...and so on.....

cheers
2air'

Speaking of delivery horror stories......

When I went to the dealer to get my 19CCD, There were so many things wrong, not done, overlooked and in a few cases, items checked off the PDI sheet as working fine when these items were never in the trailer to start with. The PDI form looked like the tech just checked off everything without even looking to see if the listed items were in the unit!!!!

And being an RV Tech myself, I was very tuned in to all of this and went ballistic at the dealer....would not sign the PDI form, would not sign the delivery acceptance, and took the trailer and left, confident that I could rectify all of the problems that were obvious. It even had 2 dead batteries!!!!!(which I made them replace). It said a lot to me about the qualilty of the techs that this particular dealer was using. Even though they said that they had almost a third of their techs going to school to be certified, I really doubt that but 1 or 2 could ever pass the certification exam.

But all was not lost. I called the owner of the dealership to express my displeasure and related the whole incident to him and after he offered me a job (which I respectfully declined), he asked if I was willing to 'make the trailer right' and send him the bill for my time....which I did and he promptly paid it!

I have seen many, many issues with new RV's of all types....even the million dollar kind. The factories put them out at such a rapid rate using assembly line workers that the quality in the entire industry is slipping. The factories leave the final details to the dealers, and the dealers don't have the skill level in their techs to correct the stuff that should have been done right at the factory. Monaco has a 6 MONTH wait at their factory service centers!!!! I feel that the only answer is to look at the unit VERY CAREFULLY when you get it and write a list of everything that you find displeasing. Have the dealer sign off on it...even if you don't want them to fix it. Then you have a record tot take to the factory and it seems that they make it right (thankfully!).

I am still correcting, re-fitting and refinishing my NEW 19CCD, but I am a perfectionist and I will work at this little beastie until I don't see any more flaws.......and then I'll probably rip out the interior to reproduce one like David Winnick designed for the 75th anniversary 19' (just love that trailer)

I'll get off the soap box now....thanks for letting me vent.

JDL · 03-22-2006, 12:14 AM

Hey lewster!

I happened to run into one of the folks from Airstream at an RV show in Eugene. (Apparently Airstream sends folks out to a number of RV shows a year to hear what customers think.... I was impressed..) He mentioned how they were implementing a number of process into the production line to improve the end product. Most RV manufactures just push the stuff down the line. It sounds like they are working on implementing checks on the line. Are they perfect no... Are they making a concerted effort to improve. I believe they are.

Anyway I still think Airstream makes the best product in the RV market.

jd

Mike Lewis · 03-22-2006, 06:54 AM

Jack ---I'm sure your right about difficulty to build the smaller trailers ,interiors in particular. That said the items we experienced and the ones many report have nothing to do with size. Our !6'CCD had every wall plug mounted crooked, some as much as a 1/4'' off. The dinnette was an inch out of level both ways, the road side dinnette base was sitting on a wire harness making the seat on that side an inch out of level causing my wife to slide out of it. There was a wiring harness in the closet that was never attached with a foot of excecss wire ion the floor, tank monators that never came close to working, a refridgerator fan hanging from a piece of scrap paneling that "drumed the fan noise so lod you couldn't sleep Cabnet sliding doors and AC filter grills that found thenselves on the floor on every trip. I could go on and on but I think you would agree that none of these had anything to do with trailer size making it more difficult. _____pieman

Silvertwinkie · 03-22-2006, 07:10 AM

JD. I believe you are correct. Quality is not something that happens overnight, nor are processes started and left as good enough. It's ongoing always.

That said, I only started looking at the QC of the trailers since late 2002 (2003 model year). Since that time, there have been great successes in getting these things off the line in better shape, and there have been several areas that really, even to this day, still need to be addressed.

That being said, I would buy an '06 or '07 and feel confident that the QC on these model years would for the most part be better than our 2003 and even our 2004.

I hope with the new focus on the trailer line as they go in new directions with interiors, accessories, etc that the engineering folks have some solid designs and that the production folks can implement those designs with minimal QC issues as we've seen in the past.

JohnnieWinon · 03-22-2006, 09:06 AM

Mine is an '06, with that '75th year' disc on the side, the build date is Aug05.

Before we purchased the 06, we came close to purchasing a new 05 from a dealer in Missouri. We traveled to look at it before committing, and found so many crooked and undone things that after a day of sitting in it etc...we got back in the truck and drove back to newMexico, BambiLess.

I agree with all of the statements about the difficulty building CCDs and small trailers in general. But, that also applies to trucks, and boats both of which you generally don't see the repeating issues we have here. Using levels, or measuring before cutting holes for outlets, to make sure they are straight and plumb, for example should be a given. In an object like the CCD all those things are quite visible, because appreciation of the design depends on the sum of the details.

It seems so simple to have a good quality control person that examines the build results a various steps, and not let mediocrity pass.
The 19'CCDs are now approaching 50k optioned, clients that have enough $ to conceder one expect that those things are worked out especially true when you stand in front of the door and see that '75th year' disc on the side.

bradk · 03-22-2006, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnieWinon

It seems so simple to have a good quality control person that examines the build results a various steps, and not let mediocrity pass.
The 19'CCDs are now approaching 50k optioned, clients that have enough $ to conceder one expect that those things are worked out especially true when you stand in front of the door and see that '75th year' disc on the side.

Well said,

as an owner of a 2006 19' CCD work order, in going through these quality control threads, I can't help but be nervous as to what I may encounter when I pick it up next month. Keeping in mind that on a discussion board like this, the most vocal will be those with issues they wish to be vocal about. I'm sure there's a bunch of AS' that come off the line really well don. I'm optimistic and coming unglued with excitement, but I'm still nervous for the walkthrough.

The bambi represents the 2nd largest investment I've ever made, next to our house. I will not be happy if I get to the dealer and there were things "missed" or half-assed on my 40,000 dollar trailer. How these units and the horror stories described, even just in this thread, make it off the line in Jackson Centre, out to the dealer, pass both inspecitons, only to be noticed or pointed out by the purchaser (more likely) is truely unbelievable.

I also don't buy into the notion that because of the problems in quality the plague the so-called "SOB", doesn't mean that's ok for a double to triple the price trailer can have a just slightly higher quality standard. Maybe that's just me and my utopian vision.

Regardless, I'm going to Montana next month expecting the trailer to be close to perfection and expecting that I will be satisfied. If not, then it will be fixed to the standard that the crown jewel of the travel trailer should be in the first place.

Is that asking for too much or did I miss something?

Rant off.

brad.

Sonia · 03-22-2006, 09:25 AM

We traded in our 2005 30' Classic for the 2006 34'Classic Limited slide-out and have been very happy with it. We were happy with the 30'-er too, but this one offers more space. It is the 75th Anniversay Edition and we just love the Hickory cabinets. Everything else in this unit, we already had in the older one. The disk brakes take some getting used to. We love the additional space in the linen closet. I wish they had installed a bigger refregirator in the unit. Otherwise, it is perfect!
The unit was made in May/June of 2005 and we got it in October 2005.
The quality is very good.

Silvertwinkie · 03-22-2006, 01:13 PM

I just read the survey post pieman....shoot me a PM so we can talk about it.

If you think it would be helpful, it sounds like a great suggestion.

2airishuman · 03-22-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradk

I'm going to Montana next month expecting the trailer to be close to perfection and expecting that I will be satisfied. If not, then it will be fixed to the standard that the crown jewel of the travel trailer should be in the first place. Is that asking for too much or did I miss something? brad.

hi bradk, johnnie and other near perfectionist.....

brad, no you haven't missed anything......
and the message to newly expecting buyers....like yourself....is........

do not accept the trailer unless it is assembled and detailed and functioning to your level of expectations.....what ever they may be.....

don't put yourself in a position where you cannot walk away from the purchase....

don't show up....like it is the first day of a trip....and load up and go....

yes you ordered it......but that doesn't mean you have to 'take it' and you've got to be willing to leave it if necessary....

they can make another one.....
they can send it back to the factory if needed.....
the dealer can bring someone out from ohio to do the work if needed..

don't buy into the.....
"we will work this out, and fix whatever needs fixin'...once it's yours"....

don't sign papers......until it is just like you want....

it is still there problem till you sign; then it is your problem......like johnnie...

if more buyers would be firm on this position....everyone in the food chain would work harder to create and delivery a fully finished, finely made airstream....

that's all we want......right?

cheers
2air'

bradk · 03-22-2006, 01:26 PM

and finding these forums and reading, I will not sign my pdi or anything like it until the trailer meets my expectations in full, or have written contracts of that work to be done. If I had not been coached on this via researching other threads, perhaps the line "don't worry, we'll take care of it" probably would have been just fine by me.

The point is, and it's a rhetorical one admittedly, why would a company like Airstream let a product off of their lot that doesn't meet anyone's expectations of their quality standards? I think that's what Johnnie had originally asked.

For companies to change, it really shouldn't have to come from reverse pressure of unhappy customers and dealers, that's a tail wagging the dog if I've ever seen an example. Perhaps I'm looking through my uptopian glasses again.

Regardless, this forum allows new owners to go in beware and aware of issues, not blinded by the shine of the famous aluminum trailer.

brad.

silverback · 03-22-2006, 06:45 PM

Just wanted to add an item to 2air's list. Now that we've done this a couple times with #3 coming up I know that we will have several hours of "touch up" work for the service department before we sign off and head down the road. Our dealers service department closes at noon on Saturday so we will be arriving before noon on Friday (or Monday) to pickup up the new Safari SE. Possibly spending the night on the lot or close by.
K & L

Silvertwinkie · 03-23-2006, 06:35 AM

Those who have posted good and areas of improvement, please also to make sure to include the month and year of manufacture. This info can be found on the street side front of your coach.

Gunnyusmc · 03-31-2006, 07:41 AM

My unit was a special order and was manufactured in Feb 06.
1. Stove hood vent cover leaked due too being instaled with double sided tape and no sealant. Fix remove and seal with silkaflex and replace stripped screws.
2. Buck rivet not installed (sealer of awning sealed right up too rivet hole, but left hole open). Fixed with olypic rivet and silkaflex.
3. Guard plate between AC and frig vent not screwed down and only 1" of double sided tape holding it on. Fix remove double sided tape and olypic riveted it too trailer with silkaflex.
4. TV antenna stuck too trailer with sealant but no screws. Fix Screwed down with stainless screws and silkaflexed.
5. Upper brackets that hold awning on not sealed. fix remove and silkaflex and replace stripped screws.
6. Laminate on counter tops and drawers installed wrong. Fix replace cabinets since they were soaked with water from leaks. As you should know, I have a great cabinet man, see photo's of my nonairstream in photo section.
7. Cracked wrap window, Not covered by warrenty. Fix replace window.

First contact with airstream "What do you want us too do about it, after all they are built by humans that make mistakes". Mistakes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yesterday I got Bob Wheeler and while he apologized, he didn't offer too pay for the fix. Fix was 8 hours, tube of silkaflex and 34 stainless screws, so far.

Don
512-497-5120