Best Anti-Sway Hitch?

[Collyn]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

As we discussed, the first atypical issue with Weight Distribution hitches applies to the infrequent case where redistribution causes the vehicle to shift from near neutral steering to significant oversteer. This is most common with performance SUV's towing large trailers at or over their labeled capacity. Most US tow combinations don't fit this case. For example, my Ram 2500 doesn't experience trailer induced oversteer until the trailer weight is north of 14,000 lb, or nearly twice what I'm towing.

The second atypical issue is the unbalanced stress WD tension can impart to the vehicle and trailer structural components in unusual circumstances. One is in front end collisions, another is while navigating large drainage swales or highly variable and severe lateral roadway camber. Smaller trailers and vehicles (like European SUVs) are susceptible to damage in these rare cases.

Brian
The issue with WDHs (in Australia at least) is that by removing weight from the tow vehicle's rear tyres, they are (unless pressure is increased, and I advise 50-70 kPa) prone to cause that vehicle to oversteer. If that happens jacknifing is all but inevitable.

Essentially surely, if one uses a WDH, for any number of reasons, that vehicle is being subjected to forces for which it was neither designed nor intended.

We have also any number of dual cab utes that are bent like hairpins - far from unusual over here! See -RV DAILYrvdaily.com.au › are-we-killing-our-dual-cab-utes

(Not sure what 'utes' are called in USA youse-all talk funny over there!)

Collyn

[lsbrodsky]

I have watched this thread, especially because I like a lot of Australian TV on Britbox. Your comment about a Ute is interesting. From a simple web search, it appears that Utes were originally essentially cars with an open cargo area, maybe like our El Camino. If so, they were never intended for serious towing, including WDH's. However, I could not determine whether modern day use of the term Ute may apply to what we consider a real pickup truck, an entirely different build than a car chassis with an open rear. Seems like our country has gravitated to a proliferation of serious pickup trucks, even if people are only hauling bags of lawn fertilizer.
Larry

[ROBERT CROSS]

Not conjecture...recent experience.

We drove thru "Laura's" 50mph gusting horizontal rain on the way home from JC last Saturday.
1.5 hrs at 30-45mph.
All accomplished without any pucker factor and using 10digit math.
Imagine that...

FWIW...The interstate did have sufficient crown for proper drainage.

Bob
🇺🇸

[Collyn]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

I have watched this thread, especially because I like a lot of Australian TV on Britbox. Your comment about a Ute is interesting. From a simple web search, it appears that Utes were originally essentially cars with an open cargo area, maybe like our El Camino. If so, they were never intended for serious towing, including WDH's. However, I could not determine whether modern day use of the term Ute may apply to what we consider a real pickup truck, an entirely different build than a car chassis with an open rear. Seems like our country has gravitated to a proliferation of serious pickup trucks, even if people are only hauling bags of lawn fertilizer.
Larry

Larry

Your assumption is correct. Apart the smaller versions of the Ford ranger, our utes are toys compared with what you have in the USA. Most here are about two tonne empty and have a payload of about 3/4 of a tonne. They are grossly too light to tow their often up to 3.5 tonne - and roll-over accordingly.

They are used mainly by tradespeople - who often tow a 4 metre two tonne trailer. But many are bought to tow up to 3.5 tonne caravans. They have many accidents. This is not least as most have a 250 kg max tow ball mass (about a quarter of a tonne).

A major issue here is to have people accept that the major towing limitation of a 'travel trailer' (we and the UK call them 'caravans') is excess length - not weight. We also have a local caravan industry (and caravan owners) that deem themselves immune from Newtonian physics. Many thus 'recommend' <4% tow ball mass for a plus two-tonne caravan.

When/when/when (!) will the USA adopt metric measurements and the SI system. For those not aware of this, the USA lead the move to use metric units (in 195) but backed out on the very last day - for reasons unclear.

The USA lost a Mars space craft through mixing up SI and Imperial units a decade or so ago.

http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/space/99...sed%20Thursday.

Collyn

[Blighcapn]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Not conjecture...recent experience.

We drove thru "Laura's" 50mph gusting horizontal rain on the way home from JC last Saturday.
1.5 hrs at 30-45mph.
All accomplished without any pucker factor and using 10digit math.
Imagine that...

FWIW...The interstate did have sufficient crown for proper drainage.

Bob
🇺🇸

Good to know, but what is your rig?

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Collyn

When/when/when (!) will the USA adopt metric measurements and the SI system. For those not aware of this, the USA lead the move to use metric units (in 195) but backed out on the very last day - for reasons unclear.

The USA lost a Mars space craft through mixing up SI and Imperial units a decade or so ago.

http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/space/99...sed%20Thursday.

Collyn

Collyn, if you keep hating on America like this, we may have to remind you that the USA saved Great Brittan from Nazi Germany and Australia from Imperial Japan. We all make mistakes should we start pointing out yours?

[Collyn]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Collyn, if you keep hating on America like this, we may have to remind you that the USA saved Great Brittan from Nazi Germany and Australia from Imperial Japan. We all make mistakes should we start pointing out yours?

What on earth causes you think I hate America? Surely my comment that AN OTHER first developed a trapeziod hitch cannot be so conflated!

That the USA public still do not generally use metric units puzzles - but as most of its engineers and physicists do - it really does not matter. In most of my own published papers and books I use both.

I have visited the USA at least 20 times and spent a lot of time there. I have even visited the President's Oval office. My business parter is American.

As with much of the world, I wonder how the USA's internal politics will end up after your November elections - as it may have global implications. But again this an issue of general world concern for innocent Americans.

Collyn

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by Blighcapn

Good to know, but what is your rig?

2006 2500 Burb, 2003 25' Classic. Hensley Arrow, TruControl brake controller.👍

Bob
🇺🇸

[Collyn]

Originally Posted by Collyn

What on earth causes you think I hate America? Surely my comment that AN OTHER first developed a trapeziod hitch cannot be so conflated!

That the USA public still do not generally use metric units puzzles - but as most of its engineers and physicists do - it really does not matter. In most of my own published papers and books I use both.

I have visited the USA at least 20 times and spent a lot of time there. I have even visited the President's Oval office. My business parter is American.

As with much of the world, I wonder how the USA's internal politics will end up after your November elections - as it may have global implications. But again this an issue of general world concern for innocent Americans.

Collyn

I make no comment nor inference- excepting that this may interest Americans concerned re November. It primarily relates to the now substantial population of Americans who now live permanently in Australia. rvsp@moofdystax.com - or moodystax.com/seminars

Just one further point. Australia still is associated with the UK - but less than 4% of our population were born in the UK. Much of the population seeks to see us as a Republic - but not until the now 94 year old (UK) Queen has passed away.

We are massively multicultural with a large Greek, Italian and Chinese population. It is illegal to own, or carry a gun in public unless licensed so we have very few shooting issues. Our drivers, however, are not as law-biding as I have observed whilst driving in the USA.

Collyn

[BayouBiker]

Yeah the legality of gun ownership is not the issue nor is it why Australia doesn't have all that many shootings. People who choose to kill are not concerned with what is legal nor what they can obtain legally. Anyone who wants can easily get a black market gun for less than 700, Same is true in Australia. But ignorance is bliss I suppose, so keep thinking that if it calms you. It's true, God made man, Smith and Wesson made them equal. An emergency call to the police takes 3-15 minutes in my area, my hand gun, rifle, or shotgun takes less than 10 seconds. I get that leftist progressives trust government more than their neighbor, oh except when they think law enforcement is is systemically racist and evil (the irony is fascinating). Anyway you wear your agenda on your shoulder and it fits you like a cheap suit.

[Downhill502]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Yeah the legality of gun ownership is not the issue nor is it why Australia doesn't have all that many shootings. People who choose to kill are not concerned with what is legal nor what they can obtain legally. Anyone who wants can easily get a black market gun for less than 700, Same is true in Australia. But ignorance is bliss I suppose, so keep thinking that if it calms you. It's true, God made man, Smith and Wesson made them equal. An emergency call to the police takes 3-15 minutes in my area, my hand gun, rifle, or shotgun takes less than 10 seconds. I get that leftist progressives trust government more than their neighbor, oh except when they think law enforcement is is systemically racist and evil (the irony is fascinating). Anyway you wear your agenda on your shoulder and it fits you like a cheap suit.

Wow, you are embarrassing. I believe this is a hitch thread......?

[rmkrum]

Don’t worry, the moderators will come by and clean up. Back to the hitch discussion, please.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Downhill502

Wow, you are embarrassing. I believe this is a hitch thread......?

Collyn clearly understands vehicle suspension and handling and the performance characteristics of pulling European and Australian built Caravans which concentrate much of the mass close to the axles and therefore use relatively light tongue weight. He also understands the consequences of overloading a tow vehicle with an oversized trailer and then attempting to compensate by shifting the excessive load off the rear axle using a weight distribution hitch. You see this attempted most often by owners of European SUVs who don't seem to understand why they can't tow American Travel Trailers the way their European counterparts tow low tongue weight Caravans. Collyn doesn't seem to recognize the stabilizing benefits of WD for vehicles that are not overloaded but are towing an American made trailer that has significant inertial moments. I suspect it is because he hasn't had the opportunity to experience the difference in comfort, handling and suspension and steering response. When he's unable to make convincing arguments he switches tactics and has the gall to make subtle but snide remarks about my country, practices and customs. I ignored his first couple remarks, but like the cancel culture, it never stops so I'm through biting my lip. I find your attention and focus misguided. Perhaps you can defend his poor manners.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Don’t worry, the moderators will come by and clean up. Back to the hitch discussion, please.

Ok...My hitch is better than your hitch.

And I know more than you know I know.

Bob
🇺🇸

Vote twice, the cancel culture is upon us.😂

[Collyn]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Collyn clearly understands vehicle suspension and handling and the performance characteristics of pulling European and Australian built Caravans which concentrate much of the mass close to the axles and therefore use relatively light tongue weight. He also understands the consequences of overloading a tow vehicle with an oversized trailer and then attempting to compensate by shifting the excessive load off the rear axle using a weight distribution hitch. You see this attempted most often by owners of European SUVs who don't seem to understand why they can't tow American Travel Trailers the way their European counterparts tow low tongue weight Caravans. Collyn doesn't seem to recognize the stabilizing benefits of WD for vehicles that are not overloaded but are towing an American made trailer that has significant inertial moments. I suspect it is because he hasn't had the opportunity to experience the difference in comfort, handling and suspension and steering response. When he's unable to make convincing arguments he switches tactics and has the gall to make subtle but snide remarks about my country, practices and customs. I ignored his first couple remarks, but like the cancel culture, it never stops so I'm through biting my lip. I find your attention and focus misguided. Perhaps you can defend his poor manners.

Tow vehicle and travel trailer interaction is nowadays reasonable understood. It can, however, only be realistically explained in Newtonian terminology. I attempt to do so in Australia's version of English and it is up to the reader (and buyers of my books) to decide whether to accept that or not.

Re: "Australian built Caravans which concentrate much of the mass close to the axles and therefore use relatively light tongue weight'. Alas, many do the latter (typically a mere 4%) but not the former. Many makers appear to believe they are immune to the more basic laws of physics. In this respect, Airstream is way ahead.

Re experience, I do have some (in the USA) of rented rigs - and at other extreme have taken a travel trailer from Helsinki to within 2000 km of the North Pole (i.e. the tip of Norway).

(My politics are my business - but are certainly well to the left of Ghengis Khan!).

Collyn

[Profxd]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Collyn clearly understands vehicle suspension and handling and the performance characteristics of pulling European and Australian built Caravans which concentrate much of the mass close to the axles and therefore use relatively light tongue weight. He also understands the consequences of overloading a tow vehicle with an oversized trailer and then attempting to compensate by shifting the excessive load off the rear axle using a weight distribution hitch. You see this attempted most often by owners of European SUVs who don't seem to understand why they can't tow American Travel Trailers the way their European counterparts tow low tongue weight Caravans. Collyn doesn't seem to recognize the stabilizing benefits of WD for vehicles that are not overloaded but are towing an American made trailer that has significant inertial moments. I suspect it is because he hasn't had the opportunity to experience the difference in comfort, handling and suspension and steering response. When he's unable to make convincing arguments he switches tactics and has the gall to make subtle but snide remarks about my country, practices and customs. I ignored his first couple remarks, but like the cancel culture, it never stops so I'm through biting my lip. I find your attention and focus misguided. Perhaps you can defend his poor manners.

Maybe Brian doesn’t realize that American vehicle manufacturers do understand the limitations of using a WDH since very few recommend over 50% FALR? Face it Brian you are wrong and alone in your crusade and any qualified engineer knows it’s best to limit WDH tension when ever a WDH is used regardless how close you are to the maximum rating. Since high yaw inertia is the result of poor design and improper loading you are promoting the WDH as a fix to over come that? You dig your hole deeper all the time.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Yep...limit WD to how much weight was removed from the FA when hitched with no WD applied.

Never exceed what someone else who has no knowledge of your rig, how much it weighs, or the experience of the pilot tells you the 'limit' is.

No thanks, I replace all but 100lb to the FA on a 'loaded for camping' lash-up ,cuz I know from experience how any other setting effects performance, I'm the one responsible for our safety and others on the road.

It's a TETO thing...if you feel that 50% gives you 100% confidence fine. It is unlikely that decision will effect us.

IMHO>>>Actual use is the best way to determine proper WD.
I've changed settings on the road quite a few times because of load changes without ever knowing or caring what the percentage of FALR is. 37yrs SFSG

Bob
🇺🇸

[lsbrodsky]

Yes, but were you doing that with the metric system or the imperial system?
Larry

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Profxd

Maybe Brian doesn’t realize that American vehicle manufacturers do understand the limitations of using a WDH since very few recommend over 50% FALR? Face it Brian you are wrong and alone in your crusade and any qualified engineer knows it’s best to limit WDH tension when ever a WDH is used regardless how close you are to the maximum rating. Since high yaw inertia is the result of poor design and improper loading you are promoting the WDH as a fix to over come that? You dig your hole deeper all the time.

Manufacturers recommend WD settings appropriate at max towing capacity and I agree on the settings for max limits. Interestingly, the hitch manufacturers are consistent with my approach. Also I know of no competent engineer who would not agree that ideal FARL varies inversely with tongue weight and trailer inertial moment. There must be a lot of lonely people in this very large group.

[Collyn]

Are you not overlooking that a WDH addresses only vertical forces?

By removing downforce from the tow vehicle's rear tyres, the WDH reduces their 'cornering power' - thus rendering them more prone to oversteer - yet cannot reduce a swaying trailer's yaw forces on the rear of the tow vehicle.

The 50% FALR is not directly recommended in 2807, but to my certain knowledge was used as the maximum for testing.

Collyn