Leveled F250/ProPride/Classic M30

[rewillia]

Any fellow members here towing with a leveled F250 and if so, I have a related question;

Scene Set: I have a '19 Ford Super Duty F250 FX4 CCSB, 6.7L PSD and trailer towing pkg. of which came factory supplied as most (same yr/model) with an unusually high suspension rake whereby the unloaded rear was approx. 3" higher at the wheel arch that the front steer axle. Ford corrected that in the 2020, 2021 models based upon feedback from Ford Super Duty enthusiasts.

Leveled: As many similar F250 owners have done, I had a 2" front leveling kit installed (2" over coil pods, replacement of adjustable trackbar) and replaced the OE shocks with Bilsteins. Problem solved, as truck sits near level with 3/4" rake rear to front BUT NOT when connected up to my Classic M30 even with proper WD applied.

Problem Scenario: I tow my Classic M30 RQB (with a ProPride 3P,w/1,400 lbs spring bars.) After running over the cat scales numerous times, empty (truck only), loaded (truck w/cabin cargo + passengers as per norm when towing), bed loaded with camping gear, full fuel, etc., and a measured tongue weight @ 795 lbs., the Classic TT(loaded per norm), and the WD spring bars adjusted with the help of Sean & Brent at ProPride I have it dialed in perfectly in terms of weight distribution (i.e. fully restored weight to front steer axle + 20 lbs); with 8-1/2" inches of spring bar lift (i.e. Steer Axle: 4960, Drive Axle: 5340, and Trailer: 8240) and the rig drives/rides perfectly (no under/oversteer, etc.).

My Issue: The only issue I have is that once connected with the Classic with the WD dialed in my truck no longer sits level as the front steer axle wheel arch height is 1-1/4" higher than the rear drive axle wheel arch.

Note: my tongue weight is slightly less than norm as the front A-frame housed AGM batteries were done away with in part with a solar system addition which relocated the (now lithium) batteries to underneath the dining booth seat (above the TT axles).

Efforts: Sean & Brent at ProPride are of the opinion that I won't be able to get the truck back to a level stance when connected/towing due to the 2" front coil lift but I thought I'd reach out to others who may have encountered a similar situation. (i.e. I'm somewhat OCD and simply hate looking at my rig and having a noticeable slight nose stance on the F250) FWIW, The Classic is level, and maybe slightly nose down by 1/2" when connected and proper WD applied.

Seeking Feedback, Ideals, Suggestions on what (if anything) I may want to consider that would remedy my issue.

[DewTheDew]

I have to say that I like the slight forward rake on my 2019 F250! :-)

[jaybauman]

Originally Posted by rewillia

My Issue: The only issue I have is that once connected with the Classic with the WD dialed in my truck no longer sits level as the front steer axle wheel arch height is 1-1/4" higher than the rear drive axle wheel arch.

{....}


Seeking Feedback, Ideals, Suggestions on what (if anything) I may want to consider that would remedy my issue.

When you put a heavy load in the bed of a truck or hitch up a heavy trailer, the back of the truck is going to drop and the front will point up as a result. This is one reason trucks are built with a back-to-front rake angle. When the empty truck starts "level", by definition, you will end up with a raised front end. What can you do about this? Other than to revert to the stock rake, you're stuck with this effect.

In fact, your leveling problem is even worse than you know. It sounds like you're using your WD hitch to restore 100% of your front axle load. Not only is this not recommended, it's actually makes your tow setup less safe. Your ProPride ensures that your trailer can never sway, but it does not reduce the risk of trailer-induced oversteer. (No hitch helps with this.) If you remove too much weight from the rear axle, you increase your oversteer risk. Consequently, vehicle manufactures usually recommend less-than-100%-FALR. I'm not familiar with Ford's recommendations, as I own a GM. For half-tons, when using a WD hitch, GM only recommends restoring 50% of the front axle weight. For 2500/3500 models, GM says you don't need any WD up to the maximum tow rating of the vehicle, but you can choose to restore 25% if you want.

Look at your owner's manual and/or towing manual for your vehicle. I bet Ford doesn't recommend 100%. If you choose 50% or even 25%, your vehicle will even more "front end up".

I tow with a ProPride and I have dialed in my WD for the most comfortable / least bumpy ride. According to fender measurements and 3-pass CAT scales, this turns out to be ~25% FALR for my use case.

The question you have to answer is do you want a level truck without a trailer or with a trailer; you're not really going to find an easy solution to have it both ways.

[KK4YZ]

You restored 100% of the front axle weight. Doesn’t Ford recommend 50% FAWR?

Edit: I guess jaybauman and I were typing at the same time. He covered it in more detail.

I will say that I have a 2019 F350 and about the last thing I want to do is make it taller. I don’t mind the forward rake. Not that noticeable IMHO.

[ROBERT CROSS]

No mention of unhitched, TV loaded for camping steering axle weight.
What are the measurements frt & rear w/o WD?

....Very little chance of a trailer induced jackknife with 5340ls on the TV rear axle with WD applied.
We return all but 200lb the the FA and have never jackknifed.
If the AS isn't swaying, the 'jackknife' would have to result from extreme steering input.
We have had more than a few of those without dire consequences. 😁




Bob
🇺🇸

[rewillia]

I get what you're saying but just to be clear all I am doing by means of weight distribution with the ProPride 3P is restoring the weight back as near to the front axle prior to connecting the trailer -- which is well below the 5200 lb. GVWR for the front axle.

This comes at the recommendation of ProPride (Sean &. Brent) in terms of restoring the pre-connected weight back to the front steer axle. Truck drives, steers, brakes and performs perfectly as it is (when connected) and the weight restored on the FA, I'm just researching what I could consider doing to get the truck closer to a level stance while towing. It may be that I can do nothing unless I want to remove the front coilover.

[BayouBiker]

the 50% FALR guidance applies best when the vehicle is pulling more than 85% of max towing capacity and is advised to avoid oversteer with very large trailers. Being well under that, more return will likely give you a nicer towing experience and better handling performance.

Three options, remove or reduce the front lift, add airbags, change rear springs and remove or reduce the front lift. There is not much you can do compensate for the lift since it was largely achieved by geometry changes and not spring rates. Thus when you load up the rear springs they drop at a much higher ratio than the front.

[Wanna EB]

I have a very similar setup...leveled 2017 250 6.7 with ProPride towing a 25FB Eddie Bauer. One difference is that I leveled my truck by lowering the rear. I replaced the rear suspension block with a shorter one which puts the truck at almost dead level unloaded. I have loved the new stance both from an aesthetic perspective as well as functional.

When I am hitched and ready to camp, my truck sags a bit in the rear. I would prefer that it be level, but given the choice between level most of the time and sagging only when towing, I am good with the sag when towing. I recall a conversation with Sean when I was setting it up and seeking his approval for the change in the rear wheel well height - he basically said the rear is what it is and if you have managed the front correctly, don't worry about the rear. I think he is right as my rig tows fantastically.

I too have some OCDness, but have warmed up to the sag. Absent airbags (which complicate a good WD set up), I don't think you can achieve level when unloaded and when properly hitched.

[pjshier]

It happens I feel your OCD, and add to that a desire to "unharsh" the ride of the F250 now that I am down to one truck, rather than both a towing F350 and a runabout F150. Even though the F250 unladen is softer than the F350, some improvement while maintaining payload was of interest.

One thought was a Carli Commuter package - it raises the front with longer variable rate coil springs, tuned Fox shocks all around and a new front adjustable track bar. this appears to remove the rake while creating space for more suspension travel in the front - avoiding the bump stop collisions at curbs and other transitions. But no rake means squat and iffy headlight aiming. Air bags could help but complicate WD.

Options include an "add-a-pack" mod to the rear, but while introducing some softer response it also restores some rake unladen due to the added travel. Advertised no reduction in payload.

Prior posts here have helped me seek OCD counseling instead of chasing the inscrutableness of physics. Much appreciated.

[wulfraat]

You will need to add air bags in the rear to re-level... no amount of force on your spring bars will make that truck sit level with a trailer attached with a 2" lift on the front end.

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f46...-a-218903.html

Adding airbags will require you to recalibrate your WD, but it will get you back level. ProPride is ideal or this as sway control (elimination) is independent of WD bar tension.

I am not leveled but have air bags (see link above). I installed to assist with heavy load based on all the gear I carry. ProPride. Takes some tuning (air pressure) but all good once you have the bags and proppride spring bar tension dialed in. don't exceed rear GAWR. Air bags to not increase your limits.

[DewTheDew]

One side note to consider and that is the front headlights. I cannot recall if these are self-leveling but if not, a nose-up attitude will shine your headlights right into the eyes of others.

[wulfraat]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew;

One side note to consider and that is the front headlights. I cannot recall if these are self-leveling but if not, a nose-up attitude will shine your headlights right into the eyes of others.

Yes and actually a somewhat level attitude will also shine the lights higher than normal. Lights are calibrated with stock suspension and there is always a 2-3” rake to the rear to accommodate for.

IE - headlights should be re-adjusted then leveling the front.

[rewillia]

Originally Posted by wulfraat

Yes and actually a somewhat level attitude will also shine the lights higher than normal. Lights are calibrated with stock suspension and there is always a 2-3” rake to the rear to accommodate for.

IE - headlights should be re-adjusted then leveling the front.

Headlights have already be adjusted in part with the leveling of the truck and after checking with the current (yet slight) rake difference when hitched and WD applied we're good on the headlamp aiming.

[wulfraat]

Cool then add some airbags and you are back level.