Diesel may not be dead after all

[Caffeinated]

The problems with diesels are not because of the EPA, or politics, but with a ancient alien race from a star system far far away. They are known as the "Entropians" and they cause chaos wherever they go.

That's my chaos theory.

Mike

[abone]

Originally Posted by carl2591

now the MPG you stated is strong as mouse skat.. that is pulling the 25ft'er? is that the overall average or average when towing only.
my average when towing is 12 and my overall when towing and non towing is 18 depending on where.. mountains is lower coastal is higher.

where was your 3500 miles trip going ?

they are nice trucks for sure. how much spare cap with tongue wight on truck do have??

I just sold my 1500 EcoDiesel to my brother, and moved to a F350 for the additional reserve towing and payload capacity however the EcoDiesel fuel economy is incredible. Here is a 3000 km trip I took, loaded for camping, in BC, including crossing the Rockies through Jasper and the Salmo-Creston pass in the Selkirk Mountains. There are plenty of steep grades in those mountains.
14.7 L/100 is 16 US mpg or 19.22 Imp mpg, all towing km's. I've duplicated that mileage every trip I've taken but this particular trip had lots of grades so even more impressive.
The engine is a gem, but the truck just didn't have the payload or enough reserve for me to be comfortable with my 27FB, and in addition, I couldn't get enough weight transferred to the front axle. My measured tongue weight is 850 lbs +/-, GCVW of over 14,000, was right at axle ratings, truck over 6500 lbs. My door sticker was 910 lbs payload. It towed nicely but I couldn't get it out of my mind that I was at or slightly over all the parameters. The engine is not the limiting factor.

[VernDiesel]

JCL, Your point is valid. But if sales for the coming F150 diesel are strong & when Ecodiesel is released by the EPA and its sales continue to be strong market demand may win out. Fwiw I have 309,000 miles on my ED delivering AS & other TTs. Truck has been reliable comfortable & fuel efficient for me. My son wants to order a 17 but is on hold.

[PharmGeek]

I fail to see the relevance of the article posted for tow vehicles.

I suppose in some very general fashion an article that cites a vague mention of some technology to boost diesel efficiency is interesting, but it sounds more like marketing fluff on a website to me?

[PharmGeek]

reminds me of sooooooo many articles on some undisclosed new battery technology that will blow our minds....then we never hear more about it....

[jcl]

Originally Posted by VernDiesel

JCL, Your point is valid. But if sales for the coming F150 diesel are strong & when Ecodiesel is released by the EPA and its sales continue to be strong market demand may win out. Fwiw I have 309,000 miles on my ED delivering AS & other TTs. Truck has been reliable comfortable & fuel efficient for me. My son wants to order a 17 but is on hold.

I think the F150 3.0 diesel is an example of an engine already in the pipeline. The question is whether Ford would have developed that engine in today's environment, if they couldn't have purchased it and taken advantage of the existing certification.

With the FCA Ecodiesel, we will know more when it is released for sale. That won't just be a technical issue, IMO, but rather a settlement of some type. It may be a small settlement, or a large one. We don't know yet. It is more than just a rubber stamp by a government agency. Even if they remove from future production all the defeat devices that regulators claim are there, they have to deal with the products already sold.

BMW just announced they will bring in the 40d in the 5 series. But their sales manager was also interviewed, and he said that diesel is done for passenger vehicles in North America in his opinion.

Looking at the recent announcement by Mercedes that they aren't going to try and get their '17 diesel models certified but rather withdraw them from the market, they have announced to their shareholders (as required by law, due to the hit they may take) that there is a risk of penalties being applied to them, due to the inclusion of defeat devices in their software. So it looks like the fallout will continue.

I don't have any doubt that your truck has worked well for you. Coming from the diesel business, I knew of VM Motori and respected the product. But that doesn't change that as installed in the FCA products, it doesn't appear to be North American emissions legal. And even if the EPA rolled over and said they weren't going to pursue any of this, sufficient states are already doing so that the emissions standards will hold. IMO.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

I fail to see the relevance of the article posted for tow vehicles.

I suppose in some very general fashion an article that cites a vague mention of some technology to boost diesel efficiency is interesting, but it sounds more like marketing fluff on a website to me?

The linked article was about Porsche and Audi potentially certifying and releasing the 3.0 TDI engine in their products, even though VW has announced that they will not do so.

Were you clicking that article, or perhaps an ad?

[wbrisett]

Originally Posted by upnorththree

Decisions, decisions.
And it tows like a monster. Just back from a 3500 mile trip, MPG 15.9.
I guess that's what 55 grand will get ya.

I talked to quite a few folks with the 1500 EcoDiesels, thought seriously abut one, and wanted a diesel. At the end of the day, I determined the towing capacity and weight limitations just weren't enough for me. I do wish there were other ¼ ton diesel options out there, but they currently don't exists. I think the 3.0 liter is just a tad undersized. We don't need the 6.0 liter diesels in the ¾ ton trucks, but something in between 4.0 and 4.5 I think would be ideal.

When it came time to buy, I looked around and ended up with a ¾ ton diesel. I can't even tell my 23D is behind me! I get 12-14 MPG towing and with a 30 gallon tank can get over 350 miles before I have to refuel. It has way more towing and combined weight capacity than I'll ever need.

There are downsides including initial cost, parking in cities, and fuel costs, but diesel is still cheaper than premium.

[wbrisett]

Originally Posted by jcl

Let's restrict this to passenger vehicles, not heavy trucks, locomotives, etc, where diesel has an economic advantage. And build on the linked article.

As far as GM is concerned there is no issue with diesels. They have released a diesel Cruze, have both Canyon and Colorado 2.8L diesel trucks, and they have publically stated that they are looking at to increase the number of vehicles they offer with a diesel engine. So, who knows, we may see another surge in diesels. I will say that the VW diesel scandal didn't help the image of diesel engines regardless of brand.

[Hans627]

I just read an article that Mazda is planning on selling the CX-5 with a diesel engine in the US. They already have it for other markets. Their goal is to sell 10% of vehicles with diesels. Here is a link for those interested.

So it appears as though diesel isn't dead, at least in the short term.

[Hans627]

Originally Posted by Hans627

I just read an article that Mazda is planning on selling the CX-5 with a diesel engine in the US. They already have it for other markets. Their goal is to sell 10% of vehicles with diesels.[http://www.motortrend.com/news/mazda-wants-diesel-engine-make-10-percent-cx-5-sales-u-s/[/URL] Here is a link for those interested.

So it appears as though diesel isn't dead, at least in the short term.

Here is the link. [http://www.motortrend.com/news/mazda-wants-diesel-engine-make-10-percent-cx-5-sales-u-s/

[Bill M.]

There are regulations that hurt the use of small diesels, the emission regulations.
There are regulations that encourage the use of small diesels, the CAFE requirements.
Diesel engines are pretty much a lot heavier than gas engines of the same power.
Current fuel prices do not favor the diesel engine.
But it all can change.
Be interesting to see how it plays out in the next few years.

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by Bill M.

There are regulations that hurt the use of small diesels, the emission regulations.
There are regulations that encourage the use of small diesels, the CAFE requirements.
Diesel engines are pretty much a lot heavier than gas engines of the same power.
Current fuel prices do not favor the diesel engine.
But it all can change.
Be interesting to see how it plays out in the next few years.

I am on my second new ram, 07 to a 17, new one is at 14 mpg while towing on a 4200 mile trip....no power like diesel power...

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by Bill M.

There are regulations that hurt the use of small diesels, the emission regulations.
There are regulations that encourage the use of small diesels, the CAFE requirements.
Diesel engines are pretty much a lot heavier than gas engines of the same power.
Current fuel prices do not favor the diesel engine.
But it all can change.
Be interesting to see how it plays out in the next few years.

Gas engines of same power? Where...? On a 4200 mile trip my 17 ram with a 6.7 cumalong averaged at 14 mpg , at 63-64 mph the tack is at 1300 rpm and it will pull down to 1000 rpm, 1500 miles to 1.5 gal of def...no problem

[Ray Eklund]

Towing a 23 foot Safari with a 4.7L 2006 Toyota Tundra 4x4, then a 25 foot International with two model years of the 5.7L Tundra's 4x4... I was always on the 'edge' of tow vehicle capabilities and the trailer size being towed. Pulling was great. The tongue weight was just a bit more than the suspension of my Tundra's were designed.

To get beyond the tongue weight dilemma, I now have a 2016 F350 Diesel 4x4. I no longer have the rear end of the truck sitting down on the tow vehicle, more towing capacity, and am finally comfortable with trailer and tow vehicle.

As we all discover driving the F250/F350, they are not exactly the vehicle to go grocery shopping or to drive through the self service bank deposit lanes. After 10,000 miles, one gets comfortable with the size and it becomes a non issue and park a part bit further away from the front entrance of a store.

There are additional costs to purchase and operate. We worked hard to live comfortably... and the Airstream and the F350 are payback. It is time we quit cutting corners as if we were university students making ends meet.

Was the change worth it? You bet, down to the last cent.

[dkottum]

Our gas Ram Hemi performed great towing our mid-size Airstream, 18-20 mpg hwy solo. Our Ram EcoDiesel has similar torque and also an excellent tow vehicle, much lower rpm to its power range, 28-30 mpg hwy solo. We used a quality w.d. hitch and managed our loading to never have an issue with axle loads, very well-built truck to handle the maximums easily.

Typical day towing our Airstream, never worried about RPM going down the road, the engine/transmission always finds the optimum range, 1800 to 2200 depending on grade and wind. Higher rpm for climbing and descents, as needed for power and engine exhaust braking at the turbo. We could usually count on 16-18 mpg for the day, depending on weather and terrain.

The 3.0 turbodiesel is a really nice, capable engine for mid-size Airstreams. I think Airstreamers will also like the Ford F-150 turbodiesel when it arrives.

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

. . . It is time we quit cutting corners as if we were university students making ends meet.

Sorry Ray, it never once occurred to us we were cutting corners, we instead choose the vehicles that best match our overall needs. We have spent years towing our Airstreams all over the country, 6-7 months a year, many experiences. The last thing we would ever want to deal with is an oversized tow vehicle, for some of the reasons you mention.

Back to the diesel question, it works well for us in the appropriate size for the task. We also have a turbodiesel sedan that gives us 45-50 mpg on the highway.

[Bill M.]

"Gas engines of same power? Where...? On a 4200 mile trip my 17 ram with a 6.7 cumalong averaged at 14 mpg , at 63-64 mph the tack is at 1300 rpm and it will pull down to 1000 rpm, 1500 miles to 1.5 gal of def...no problem"

I was thinking about cars and trucks in the 1/2 ton and smaller range.

I am still driving my 07, 5.9 diesel.

[wbrisett]

Originally Posted by dkottum

Sorry Ray, it never once occurred to us we were cutting corners, we instead choose the vehicles that best match our overall needs.

I assumed he was talking about himself based on his initial post, not everybody else.

But there's some truth to his statement about payback. Buying an Airstream is not something you do if you're pinching pennies. But I have to agree with you on buying the right vehicle for you. Honestly, I wanted (not needed) to buy a diesel and the only options outside of a ¾ ton truck simply didn't have enough overall weight capacity for me.

I'm happy that diesel is still an option for consumers, but honestly, the black eye it received has not helped the image.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

Gas engines of same power? Where...? On a 4200 mile trip my 17 ram with a 6.7 cumalong averaged at 14 mpg , at 63-64 mph the tach is at 1300 rpm and it will pull down to 1000 rpm, 1500 miles to 1.5 gal of def...no problem

Power is measured in hp or kw, not mpg, mph, rpm, miles, or gallon.

The RAM 6.7 produces 350 - 385 hp, depending on configuration and transmission. It is listed as weighing 1050 to 1150 lbs, dry.

The Ecoboost 3.5 produces 365 to 380 hp, depending on configuration. It is about to be released at 450 hp. It is listed as weighing 449 lbs dry.

So yes, diesels of the same (or less) power appear to be heavier.