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01-12-2022, 10:18 AM
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#1
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Evergreen
, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,592
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Adding two more Zamp solar panels to the roof
Hello everyone. I'm hoping to get some information or thoughts on adding additional solar panels to the roof of my International Serenity 23FB. I've currently got an aftermarket Zamp system that was installed by my dealer when I purchased my Airstream in 2020. It has two Zamp 90W panels, a Zamp solar controller in the galley, and two AGM batteries. It has generally worked well, but I'd like to add more solar capability and at some point in the future I'd like to upgrade to LiFePo batteries. I'm planning to add one or perhaps two additional 90W panels to the roof.
My Zamp controller has the capability to manage additional panels. I have a couple of questions for the solar experts on the installation. My Airstream goes into my local dealer for service in the next couple of months, and I am planning to have them install the additional panel(s). Here are my questions:
- Is there anyone here with experience putting four panels on the roof of a 23FB? Will two additional panels fit? It looks to me like there's plenty of room.
- My existing panels are plugged directly into the connector on the roof of my Airstream. Will the new panels plug directly into the port? Will it accommodate two more panels? I thought I saw somewhere that the factory connector only has three ports, meaning I could only add one additional panel.
- Is the factory pre-wiring adequate for additional panels, or does it need to be upgraded to larger gauge wire?
- What should I ask and/or confirm with the dealer prior to the installation?
Thanks to all the solar experts for your comments and thoughts.
__________________
Dennis
Past:
Airstream International Serenity 23FB
Newmar Ventana 3715
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01-12-2022, 11:14 AM
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#2
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Rivet Master
2018 27' Globetrotter
Mooresville
, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,085
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Hi Dennis,
I'm not an expert but was in a situation similar to yours. I'll tell you what I did and let the experts chime in.
My 27' Globetrotter had the factory solar option added when I bought it. 2, Zamp 80W solar on the roof and 2 Lifeline AGM 80Ah batteries. I had also read that the port on the roof only had an input for 3 panels. I added 1, Zamp 90W panel on the roof to give me 250W of solar on the roof. I think you can add more panels but you have to wire them in series vs parallel and that is above my skill level.
I then called AM Solar to consult with them about changing my Solar controller to an MPPT Controller. They suggested the Victron MPPT 100/30 controller. They also suggested added a breaker and a solar disconnect. I followed their instructions online for how to connect.
This was the most important change I made as this controller is more efficient that the non-MPPT controller installed by the factory. Your 2020 may have this controller already. If it doesn't, I would suggest it.
Later, I consulted AM Solar on portable panels as a supplement. They suggested 2, 100W Zamp Obsidian portable panels. 1 of them has the solar controller and the other doesn't. They connect together to provide an additonal 200W of solar. I just plug these directly into the Zamp plug outside the battery box.
For my uses, I don't even need to use the portables if I have good sunlight. I do not camp in the winter if I can avoid it. I got the portables for those times when I need to find the sun. Other uses may require more, or less, solar.
This gives me 450W of solar if I need it. The factory wiring was 8 gauge and I just used 8 gauge throughout all connections from the roof to the DC distribution box. When my AGM's crap out I will probably switch to 2 100 AH Battleborn lithiums.
__________________
2018 GMC Sierra 2500HD Duramax
Equal-I-zer Weight Distribution attached to the Gen-Y Torsion Flex Weight Distribution Hitch
"Roadrunner"
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01-12-2022, 11:48 AM
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#3
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Evergreen
, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,592
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Thanks for sharing your experience. I appreciate that. Most of our camping is done in the mountains, so we have very little need for air conditioning. We generally don't watch television or use the microwave when camping, so solar is a good option. I really just want to add some capacity. I think that even if I add one more panel and increase my rooftop solar to 270W, that will be pretty good for most of our needs. If we think we are going to need more power, then I bring my generator along.
__________________
Dennis
Past:
Airstream International Serenity 23FB
Newmar Ventana 3715
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01-12-2022, 12:21 PM
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#4
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3 Rivet Member
2022 20' Caravel
2019 Interstate Lounge Ext
Noblesville
, Indiana
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 221
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Your port on the top of your unit which accepts solar wiring is most likely has 3 inputs. I just installed 4 - 90s on the top of a 20FB and simply used a Y connector for 2 of the panels. The factory wiring was 10 gauge, which is adequate for the VOC of about 18v producing 15 amps (ish). You won't have any issues. Verify that your Zamp controllers an MPPT type, not PWM. In fact, I'd consider upgrading to a Victron Smart MPPT.
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01-12-2022, 12:33 PM
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#5
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Evergreen
, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,592
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Thanks. Is the Y-adapter something you got from Zamp, or did you get it somewhere else?
__________________
Dennis
Past:
Airstream International Serenity 23FB
Newmar Ventana 3715
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01-12-2022, 12:35 PM
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#6
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Rivet Master
2023 28' International
Mercer County
, New Jersey
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 728
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01-12-2022, 12:45 PM
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#7
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3 Rivet Member
2022 20' Caravel
2019 Interstate Lounge Ext
Noblesville
, Indiana
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis C
Thanks. Is the Y-adapter something you got from Zamp, or did you get it somewhere else?
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I installed legacy Zamp 90s. They come with a solar SAE connector. I simply bought a Y on amazon.
Verify your polarity before using:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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01-12-2022, 01:37 PM
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#8
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Rivet Master
2007 16' International CCD
Vintage Kin Owner
Somewhere
, Colorado
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,586
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Not an expert, but some similar experience. For a few years we had a 23’ with 200w of rooftop solar and two 6v T105 batteries. Camped year round in the Rockies and the Pacific coast with zero power issues. We had an absorption fridge, not electric only.
If you have an absorption fridge, then I think with one more panel you will be fine and with the addition of lithium batteries you would be approaching certainty. If you have a compressor fridge, then I would suggest you do the extra panel and the lithium upgrade to give you the storage to get you through low solar circumstances.
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01-12-2022, 01:42 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Evergreen
, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,592
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I've got the old-school absorption fridge. When we're off the grid, we use propane for the fridge and the water heater, and we do all of our cooking outside, on the gas stovetop or in the gas oven. The 180W of solar that I have now works fine for a couple of days, but if I'm at a shady site or it's cloudy outside, then I'm sometimes lacking a bit. I realize this would impact additional panels also.
__________________
Dennis
Past:
Airstream International Serenity 23FB
Newmar Ventana 3715
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01-12-2022, 01:46 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
2009 34' Panamerica
2005 28' Classic
Still
, in the thick of it
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by field & stream
Not an expert, but some similar experience. For a few years we had a 23’ with 200w of rooftop solar and two 6v T105 batteries. Camped year round in the Rockies and the Pacific coast with zero power issues. We had an absorption fridge, not electric only.
If you have an absorption fridge, then I think with one more panel you will be fine and with the addition of lithium batteries you would be approaching certainty. If you have a compressor fridge, then I would suggest you do the extra panel and the lithium upgrade to give you the storage to get you through low solar circumstances.
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It's been suggested here by a number of folks that if you have the 12v compressor fridge, that you really need 400 watts of solar at a bare min and a min of 200AH of lithium batteries. With some shade days and some sun days, you could extend that time between running a generator to 405 days, maybe. The real variable is how much sun you'll be able to capture....also realized that the panels themselves, as they age lose generating capacity.
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01-12-2022, 02:41 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
2015 25' Flying Cloud
Schaumburg
, Illinois
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 635
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I think more capacity will definitely give you more flexibility, and I did a very similar thing. I now have a total of 480w on the roof of my 25' RBT, but I have to say I think the most valuable way for you to add capacity is to add via portable solar panels, unless you have some reason to know in advance that you will always park in clear sites with full sun. We like the shade, and most times, that impacts how much the panels on the roof can collect. Portable panels as an addition helps ensure you will always be able to align them with optimal sun exposure, just something for you to keep in mind as you contemplate your expansion. I have an older Zamp portable suitcase arrangement (140w) with its own dedicated controller, and I added a 10' extension cord set to it so I can have a wider range of placement options.
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01-12-2022, 04:21 PM
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#12
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Evergreen
, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb831
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Thanks for that. So if I use this splitter for two panels, will my Zamp solar controller show that I have three panels connected (two 90W and one 180W)?
__________________
Dennis
Past:
Airstream International Serenity 23FB
Newmar Ventana 3715
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01-12-2022, 04:35 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
2023 28' International
Mercer County
, New Jersey
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis C
Thanks for that. So if I use this splitter for two panels, will my Zamp solar controller show that I have three panels connected (two 90W and one 180W)?
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I am not familiar with the Zamp controller but most solar controllers don't show the status of the individual panels.
The panels usually connect to a combiner on the roof which combines the electrical flow from each panel into a single set of wires, and then the charge flows to the controller. The controller has no way to know which panel the voltage came from.
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01-12-2022, 05:47 PM
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#14
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Evergreen
, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,592
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The Zamp control panel has an LCD graphic that shows how many panels are connected. I'm not sure if it serves any meaningful purpose other than letting you know that the panel is functional.
__________________
Dennis
Past:
Airstream International Serenity 23FB
Newmar Ventana 3715
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01-12-2022, 06:15 PM
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#15
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Rivet Master
2023 28' International
Mercer County
, New Jersey
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 728
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Interesting.
I wonder how it communicates to the panels to know how many are present and is able to differentiate between 2x100W panels vs 1x200W panel.
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01-12-2022, 06:42 PM
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#16
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Rivet Master
2013 31' Classic
billings
, Montana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,577
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13 31’ Classic. Has a 10 gauge pre wire…installed am solar c box…2 90 watt zamp obsidian panels..used 3 m tape and silkflex caulking …3/100 victron controller…using my phone as a meter..if this works out..this fall I will install a couple more obsidian .panels..giving me 360 watts…
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01-12-2022, 06:45 PM
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#17
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Rivet Master
2013 31' Classic
billings
, Montana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb831
Interesting.
I wonder how it communicates to the panels to know how many are present and is able to differentiate between 2x100W panels vs 1x200W panel.
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The panel is the boss…it knows what it is producing…and sends it down the line…
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01-12-2022, 07:55 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
2023 28' International
Mercer County
, New Jersey
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjdonahoe
The panel is the boss…it knows what it is producing…and sends it down the line…
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But in this case the "line" is a power line, not a communications line.
How does the controller get told that 5 amps came from panel 1 and 5 amps came from panel 2 when the combiner aggregates them into 10 amps being sent down the line? Or just a single panel sending 10 amps down the line?
Is there a communication protocol involved, similar to POE, that allows the panels to communicate with the controller?
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01-13-2022, 10:17 AM
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#19
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb831
But in this case the "line" is a power line, not a communications line.
How does the controller get told that 5 amps came from panel 1 and 5 amps came from panel 2 when the combiner aggregates them into 10 amps being sent down the line? Or just a single panel sending 10 amps down the line?
Is there a communication protocol involved, similar to POE, that allows the panels to communicate with the controller?
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Hi
When you have all the panels on the roof, they wire up (in series or parallel). There are only two wires coming into the controller. It sees a "blob" of unknown dimensions and deals with it. A MPPT controller searches back and forth to automatically find (and adapt to) the maximum power point. As conditions change, so does the point. That's why it needs to constantly search for the max. What it found 5 minutes ago may not be correct right now.
Bob
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01-13-2022, 10:24 AM
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#20
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Rivet Master
2023 28' International
Mercer County
, New Jersey
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
Hi
When you have all the panels on the roof, they wire up (in series or parallel). There are only two wires coming into the controller. It sees a "blob" of unknown dimensions and deals with it. A MPPT controller searches back and forth to automatically find (and adapt to) the maximum power point. As conditions change, so does the point. That's why it needs to constantly search for the max. What it found 5 minutes ago may not be correct right now.
Bob
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My point exactly. The OP stated that the controller is able to count the number of panels on the roof and display that number. I am questioning the technology that is being used to determine that information when all the controller sees is a "blob" of voltage.
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