Should I Keep My 2 X Honda 2000i Generators

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by Sgtlegal

Like the concept of the EasyAir and will probably buy it, but curious as to which Honda 2000i would be more appropriate if only requiring one unit to operate the air conditioner. The regular or the companion? As it seems to me, the companion's 30 amp plug connection would be more conducive, (no pun intended) to operation by allowing the stock 30 amp power cord to be used. Brighter minds? Also, as I have already bought the standard 2000i. Sigh.

I find it easiest to use a regular extension cord with a 15/20 amp to 30 amp adapter plugged into the trailer. Less weight and less wear and tear on the heavier more expensive cord.

[Sgtlegal]

SCOTTinNJ, Thanks makes sense. Probably wouldn't need all of the length either.

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by Sgtlegal

SCOTTinNJ, Thanks makes sense. Probably wouldn't need all of the length either.

I have a 50 amp trailer so in my case I go from an extension cord to a 15/20 to 50 amp adapter. Saves lugging that heavy 50 amp cord around. It's a beast especially when cold.

[A W Warn]

I read through the entire thread just now. I did not see anywhere the electrical load of the converter is mentioned. How does the 2000i generator do when the converter is charging and the AC cycles on at the same time (assuming it hast the Micro Air device installed)?

I'll be traveling to the southwest US in my 25' in a couple months. It sure would be nice to run the AC on one 2000i!

[trumpetguy]

Good question.

[thiel]

Originally Posted by Micro-Air

Thank you. I spoke to Roger and what he provided to you yesteday is attached below. He also included some helpful instructions that apply to all Dometic system installations since all of their models pretty much have the same wiring diagram.

Matteo,

I've been reviewing your video of the installation, and it says to start the AC five times using utility power. Since I don't have a 30amp outlet at home, can I do these five starts off a 20 amp circuit from my house, or will that screw up the process?

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by A W Warn

I read through the entire thread just now. I did not see anywhere the electrical load of the converter is mentioned. How does the 2000i generator do when the converter is charging and the AC cycles on at the same time (assuming it hast the Micro Air device installed)?

I'll be traveling to the southwest US in my 25' in a couple months. It sure would be nice to run the AC on one 2000i!

AW - I am not an technical expert on the Honda EU2000i, but I will use my EE knowledge of converters and inverters to take a stab at your question. Perhaps the other commercial member, Robert@Honda, might chime in here like he did earlier in this thread to help us.

The Honda generator has an converter (i.e. DC power supply) as you say where its generator or alternator charges a large capacitor bank with high voltage DC. This is then inverted back to AC to drive the output. The Honda will have no way of knowing or predicting any impending AC load, so if the capacitor bank that feeds the inverter half of the generator is "starved" or temporarily discharged due to a previous load, then it may not quite have its normal surge capability at its disposal. The good news is EasyStart brings the required starting current down to the point where it is very close to the Honda's steady-state current output capability (16.7A @120V = 2000W). On most rooftop systems, be them 13.5k or 15k, our experience has been that EasyStart will drop the starting current requirement from about 40-50A (LRA) down to around 17-18A. Our testing has shown that the Honda will supply a spike in current well past this point, although Honda would never provided any sort of specification for this. Bottom line, as long as the Honda EU2000i is not significantly loaded by another large appliance, the A/C will reliably startup if it has EasyStart installed.

The other benefit of EasyStart has to do with utilizing your Honda's ECO mode, which allows it to drop to low RPM when lightly loaded (i.e. A/C compressor has cycled off). The EasyStart has a built-in, minimum 5-second delay for startup. So, when your A/C's thermostat clicks on since the room temp got to warm and it calls for the fan and compressor to run, the fan initially comes on first by itself. The current load required by the fan prompts the Honda to exit ECO mode and jump to high RPM. Then, 5 seconds later the EasyStart gently ramps up the compressor after the Honda has reached high RPM and its maximum power output capability. In this way, you can leave the Honda running with the ECO Mode switch turned on, and it will save you gasoline when the A/C cycles off because the Honda can kick down to low-RPM operation.

Originally Posted by thiel

Matteo, I've been reviewing your video of the installation, and it says to start the AC five times using utility power. Since I don't have a 30amp outlet at home, can I do these five starts off a 20 amp circuit from my house, or will that screw up the process?

Thiel - Yes, you should be able to conduct the EasyStart learning process on a 20A circuit. The very first learning start will knock about 40-50% off of the normal startup current, so you'll be in the low to mid-20s. After all 5 learning starts are done, your start current will be around the 17-18A mentioned above, or about a 65% reduction. Since the starting surge is so brief, current in excess of 20A should not trip any circuit breakers since most circuit breakers have a "curve" that allows them to support brief surges in excess of their rating. This is intentional since many home appliances (like air conditioners!) when starting up draw significantly more than the circuit breaker rating that it sourcing it.

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by A W Warn

I read through the entire thread just now. I did not see anywhere the electrical load of the converter is mentioned. How does the 2000i generator do when the converter is charging and the AC cycles on at the same time (assuming it hast the Micro Air device installed)?

I'll be traveling to the southwest US in my 25' in a couple months. It sure would be nice to run the AC on one 2000i!

Don't know what the draw of the converter is, and it will depend on which you have installed, but I've heard that people with 1000w generators struggle at times with generators shutting down when the converter kicks on with other small loads. So I would assume that the converter comes close to 1000w by itself.

If I were running the AC I'd probably put the converter in store mode so it's not drawing any power. I'd also think about powering the fridge with propane. Obviously no electric hot water heater or microwave, but I would think (hope!) that other small loads would be fine.

[SCOTTinNJ]

Following up on my last post:

"Our 1000W Yamaha generator puts out something like 8 amps of AC power. The way the guy at Magnum, the maker of our 50 amp charge controller, explained it to me our unit takes about 8 amps AC and converts it to 50 amps DC. But, we've been finding that with any other loads (particularly the "hungry" ones like the fridge on AC, the furnace, the bathroom fan etc), the generator quickly overloads and shuts down. In fact, we've had to adjust the "Max Charge Rate" setting on the controller down to 40% or so to keep draw to about 20 amps DC. 20 amps for 3.5 hours, should get us 70 hrs, close to what we need daily, but considering we'd started down about -100 hrs and aren't always home during generator hours, it's been a losing battle. An argument for a 2000W, perhaps, but it won't fit in the roof top box and in reality, the little guy has done its job pretty well considering the conditions."

http://www.advodna.com/2015/09/banff-national-park.html

[UnklJoe]

Since we have Matteo here (Thanks, Matteo!), can you provide some information about when would choose a 366 over a 364? (There was a question earlier where someone asked if anyone else was using a 366. From my read of the website (and I haven't watched the entire video--yet!), a 364 would work for most 13,500- and 15,000 Btu units used on late-model ASs. (Hope I didn't create an undesirable acronym...!)

Thanks!

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by SCOTTinNJ

Don't know what the draw of the converter is, and it will depend on which you have installed, but I've heard that people with 1000w generators struggle at times with generators shutting down when the converter kicks on with other small loads. So I would assume that the converter comes close to 1000w by itself.

If I were running the AC I'd probably put the converter in store mode so it's not drawing any power. I'd also think about powering the fridge with propane. Obviously no electric hot water heater or microwave, but I would think (hope!) that other small loads would be fine.

I wouldn't have any other device on with the A/C. My converter is a 55 amp model. It's label states 660W. However that is at max output. Realistically, I see 50 amps for awhile (with a 50% depleted battery bank), then it tapers off, relatively rapidly at first, eventually arriving at trickle after a 2 - 3 hours. Considering internal inefficiencies, I don't think you could start the A/C while charging a depleted battery. Maybe....you could keep a fully charged one up while running the A/C, if you had all LED lighting and used sparingly. Experiments to come at a later date.

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by UnklJoe

Since we have Matteo here (Thanks, Matteo!), can you provide some information about when would choose a 366 over a 364? (There was a question earlier where someone asked if anyone else was using a 366. From my read of the website (and I haven't watched the entire video--yet!), a 364 would work for most 13,500- and 15,000 Btu units used on late-model ASs. (Hope I didn't create an undesirable acronym...!)

Thanks!

You're welcome, UnklJoe. Glad to be of service here and be able to participate in great discussion. I'm very impressed with all the Airstream owners' knowledge and DIY attitudes!

Your question is a good one and I was having some offline conversation with the member who originally asked about it. Basically the difference between the 2 models is the 364 is the complete solution, and the 366 is just a circuit board. By "complete solution", I mean the EasyStart 364 comes in an enclosure, has its circuit board inside of course, has a start cap inside, and has a wire harness. The EasyStart 366 is just the circuit board. As it turns out, the circuit boards are different layouts, but they are basically the same circuit schematic. The board layouts are different because the EasyStart 364's board had to be sized and shaped exactly right to fit into the enclosure. The EasyStart 366 is designed to sit on standoffs inside an electric box. Also, the EasyStart 366 is designed to be populated with more components to support up to a 6-ton compressor, or depopulated with less components to support up to a 3-ton compressor.

The big advantage with the EasyStart 366 is cost, which is about half that of the EasyStart 364. The disadvantage is you have to provide the additional components, wiring, mounting enclosure, start cap, know-how, time, and labor to do the installation. EasyStart 366 was designed for our OEM customers who wanted to built it straight into their appliance's electric box. We never suspected that any DIY RV customers would want to tackle installing one in the aftermarket. Boy, were we off-base there! As it turns out, about 30% of our EasyStart sales in the RV aftermarket have been EasyStart 366. Who could blame people for wanting to save some money?

So, if your A/C has a large electric box that could fit the EasyStart 366 board, and you are not timid of tacking a bit more complicated wiring job on your own, then by all means go for the EasyStart 366. If you want to keep the job more straight-forward and less prone to installation error, then go for the EasyStart 364.

Hope this helps.

[A W Warn]

Originally Posted by Micro-Air

AW - I am not an technical expert on the Honda EU2000i, but I will use my EE knowledge of converters and inverters to take a stab at your question. Perhaps the other commercial member, Robert@Honda, might chime in here like he did earlier in this thread to help us.

The Honda generator has an converter (i.e. DC power supply) as you say where its generator or alternator charges a large capacitor bank with high voltage DC. This is then inverted back to AC to drive the output. The Honda will have no way of knowing or predicting any impending AC load, so if the capacitor bank that feeds the inverter half of the generator is "starved" or temporarily discharged due to a previous load, then it may not quite have its normal surge capability at its disposal. The good news is EasyStart brings the required starting current down to the point where it is very close to the Honda's steady-state current output capability (16.7A @120V = 2000W). On most rooftop systems, be them 13.5k or 15k, our experience has been that EasyStart will drop the starting current requirement from about 40-50A (LRA) down to around 17-18A. Our testing has shown that the Honda will supply a spike in current well past this point, although Honda would never provided any sort of specification for this. Bottom line, as long as the Honda EU2000i is not significantly loaded by another large appliance, the A/C will reliably startup if it has EasyStart installed.

The other benefit of EasyStart has to do with utilizing your Honda's ECO mode, which allows it to drop to low RPM when lightly loaded (i.e. A/C compressor has cycled off). The EasyStart has a built-in, minimum 5-second delay for startup. So, when your A/C's thermostat clicks on since the room temp got to warm and it calls for the fan and compressor to run, the fan initially comes on first by itself. The current load required by the fan prompts the Honda to exit ECO mode and jump to high RPM. Then, 5 seconds later the EasyStart gently ramps up the compressor after the Honda has reached high RPM and its maximum power output capability. In this way, you can leave the Honda running with the ECO Mode switch turned on, and it will save you gasoline when the A/C cycles off because the Honda can kick down to low-RPM operation. <<< snip>>>

The original 55 amp converters (battery charger / 12vdc power supply) in both of my trailers were 975 watt max input at 120vac. I think (do not have the data with me) the replacement converters (4 stage charging) I installed draw just over 1000 watts during the initial start up mode and just under 1000 in normal charge mode. I think the startup mode lasts ~15 minutes.

When the air conditioner starts and the converter is on at the same time, it seems to me that no 2000 watt generator would be sufficient to supply power to both.

There is no way for us to control the converter's charge rate or the time it charges, other than to disconnect it from its 120vac power supply. Would you suggest stepping up to a larger generator in this situation? If so, what size would you suggest to be the minimum?

Any additional thoughts?

[dznf0g]

Alan,
i know you weren't talking to me, but I would stagger the needs across the day, and blend in the solar to boot, for the battery recharging. Toward evening, I imagine I would shut down the A/C in favor of topping the batts....or do that first thing in the morning. A/C reserved for the heat of the day.

[A W Warn]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Alan,
i know you weren't talking to me, but I would stagger the needs across the day, and blend in the solar to boot, for the battery recharging. Toward evening, I imagine I would shut down the A/C in favor of topping the batts....or do that first thing in the morning. A/C reserved for the heat of the day.

Your suggestion does not work for those of us without solar charging. My guess is the majority of us on the forum do not.

For my camping style I cannot justify the cost of a solar upgrade. When camping without hookups, I only use a generator.

add edit:
When I do run the air conditioner it would be 24 hour per day if needed, day or night, as long at the ambient temperature was warm enough to required it. The converter would need to run to supply 12v power or charge the single battery when power use required.

[dznf0g]

In that case, I'd recharge in the morning and evening. If I were going to the SW, I would haul both gennies.

[A W Warn]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

In that case, I'd recharge in the morning and evening. If I were going to the SW, I would haul both gennies.

That's what I'm thinking too.
So, maybe there is no need for the AC start capacitor modification, unless one can charge the batteries using solar while using a 2000 to run the AC?

add edit:
After thought -- I could charge the battery morning and evening as you suggested (with the AC turned off), then use the breaker to disconnect the converter while the AC ran any other time.

I would still like to hear Matteo's thoughts.

[dznf0g]

Need? Maybe not, but I could see it reducing the times when I need to haul both gennies and it would definitely save fuel.

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by A W Warn

The original 55 amp converters (battery charger / 12vdc power supply) in both of my trailers were 975 watt max input at 120vac. I think (do not have the data with me) the replacement converters (4 stage charging) I installed draw just over 1000 watts during the initial start up mode and just under 1000 in normal charge mode. I think the startup mode lasts ~15 minutes.

When the air conditioner starts and the converter is on at the same time, it seems to me that no 2000 watt generator would be sufficient to supply power to both.

There is no way for us to control the converter's charge rate or the time it charges, other than to disconnect it from its 120vac power supply. Would you suggest stepping up to a larger generator in this situation? If so, what size would you suggest to be the minimum?

Any additional thoughts?

Originally Posted by A W Warn

That's what I'm thinking too.
So, maybe there is no need for the AC start capacitor modification, unless one can charge the batteries using solar while using a 2000 to run the AC?

add edit:
After thought -- I could charge the battery morning and evening as you suggested (with the AC turned off), then use the breaker to disconnect the converter while the AC ran any other time.

I would still like to hear Matteo's thoughts.

Alan - Sorry for the delay in replying. I was changing a starter in my girlfriend's car in a parking lot in the dark. You never know what a request for a jump start might turn into...

I must admit that I misunderstood your original post. My apologies for the long and unnecessary dissertation on the Honda generator. Let's start over and analyze the numbers you provided:

• 1000W for your battery charger = 8.3A
• Remaining generator steady-state capacity = 16.7-8.3 = 8.4A
• Requirement for your A/C to run at steady state = ~12A
• Requirement for your A/C to start with EasyStart = ~18A.
• Remaining surge capacity while battery charger is running = ~32-8.3A = ~23.7A (an estimate based on our own Honda EU2000i testing)

Based on the above, you might be able to start your A/C with an EasyStart on your 2000W generator while your battery charger was running, but it won't be able to stay running. This is because the generator will declare an overload fault since the total steady-state current demand of both the battery charger and the A/C will be ~20A, which exceeds 2000W (16.7A @120V).

So, if your batteries are requiring the maximum charging current (1000W @12V = ~80A) when you want to run your A/C, you won't be able to do it from the same 2000W generator. The only solutions would be doing power management as dznf0g was suggesting, stepping up to a larger generator (3000W should suffice), or adding a second generator in parallel.

[thiel]

I'm new to all this, but would the battery charger (built into the trailer) actually pull the full 8amps even if the batteries are not fully depleted?

Or, second question, would the same amount of power be used if you have replaced the factory "battery cooker" one-stage charger with a three stage... and the batteries were into the later stages of charging?

I'm so far over the edge of what I'm talking about here, so correct me if I'm using the wrong terms!