HELP. All smart electricans!

[capt_ron777]

I need help.my trailer has been on 50 amp service at my home for the summer. Going on a trip and I decided to disconect from shore for a few days to see what status of batteries looked like. All was good with batteries. When i plugged backin to shore power it tripped the 50 amp breaker. I then plugged in with my adapter to a 20 amp outlet and it also tripped. After playing with all the circut breakers i found that if I flipped off the 15amp breaker to the converter it did not throw either the 50 or 20 amp outlets breaker. What does that mean? An electrician friend came by and went thru the system. He believes it has something to do with thGFI. We attached a line to a nongfi 20 amp outlet and all was fine. Converter stays on and all works with the 20 amp. I have not been able to try a nongfi 50 amp. So, what do you think?. Thought at first the converter was the issue, but that seems to be working fine when not plugged in to gfi outlet. Obviously when plugged into outlets in RV parks i would think that most would be gfi protected. Also what does it really mean to not be plugged into a gfi receptcle?.BTW when during discovery I also plugged into my generators 30 amp outlet and also all worked fine.Please help. I'm supposed to go on my first trip this summer in a week!Sorry to be long winded

[ITSNO60]

Originally Posted by capt_ron777

I need help.my trailer has been on 50 amp service at my home for the summer. Going on a trip and I decided to disconect from shore for a few days to see what status of batteries looked like. All was good with batteries. When i plugged backin to shore power it tripped the 50 amp breaker. I then plugged in with my adapter to a 20 amp outlet and it also tripped. After playing with all the circut breakers i found that if I flipped off the 15amp breaker to the converter it did not throw either the 50 or 20 amp outlets breaker. What does that mean? An electrician friend came by and went thru the system. He believes it has something to do with thGFI. We attached a line to a nongfi 20 amp outlet and all was fine. Converter stays on and all works with the 20 amp. I have not been able to try a nongfi 50 amp. So, what do you think?. Thought at first the converter was the issue, but that seems to be working fine when not plugged in to gfi outlet. Obviously when plugged into outlets in RV parks i would think that most would be gfi protected. Also what does it really mean to not be plugged into a gfi receptcle?.BTW when during discovery I also plugged into my generators 30 amp outlet and also all worked fine.Please help. I'm supposed to go on my first trip this summer in a week!Sorry to be long winded

Only the 20 amp outlet at the RV parks will be GFCI protected, not the 50 or the 30. Your 50 amp RV plug at home is GFCI protected? Many converters don't get along with GFCI protection.

[richard5933]

As mentioned above, the problem could be your converter is not compatible with GFCI outlets.

And also true, you're unlikely to see 50-amp connections in campgrounds with GFCI. But, they are starting to be installed in some areas. I've seen a few 30-amp with GFCI and even one 50-amp. We did okay with our coach, but the converter in that was fairly new.

All that said, you could also have a problem with your circuits and have power leaking to ground, causing the GFCI to trip. It would be a good idea to double check things, make sure your converter is properly grounded to the chassis, and inspect to make sure that you don't have a strand of wire somewhere making contact with the ground where it shouldn't be.

[ITSNO60]

Originally Posted by richard5933

And also true, you're unlikely to see 50-amp connections in campgrounds with GFCI. But, they are starting to be installed in some areas. I've seen a few 30-amp with GFCI and even one 50-amp.

Those must have been installed before the revision, I don't expect we will be seeing then going forward unless a local jurisdiction decides to require it, or installers not aware of the revision keep putting them in.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by ITSNO60

Those must have been installed before the revision, I don't expect we will be seeing then going forward unless a local jurisdiction decides to require it, or installers not aware of the revision keep putting them in.

I can't say why or when the campground installed the 50-amp GFCI outlets, but it was there. It made itself known to us when I turned on the 120v vent over my cook top in my vintage coach and the GFCI on the pedestal tripped.

The cause for the GFCI tripping was traced to the conversion company installing the fan using only a hot lead and a ground, rather than a hot and neutral. This sent power back to the box over the ground connection, tripping the GFCI. We never would have known about this error in the original 1974 build if not for the GFCI.

This is why I recommended the OP in this thread double check their situation. The problem there could be inside the converter, or it could be in the wiring somewhere. Or it could be something else that another owner had piggybacked into the converter circuit and not wired properly.

[JMynes]

Try turning off the converter circuit breaker and then plug in to shore power. If the GFCI doesn’t trip, you’ll know the converter doesn’t play well with GFCI.

[DarthBrader]

I believe GFCI is required for any direct burial cable over 120V. So that could be why it’s GFCI.

Other things you could do:
- Check to make sure you don’t have any ground/neutrals reversed.
- consider how long your cable runs are—perhaps you’re getting capacitive coupling to ground. Try shorter cables.
- To further isolate the issue to the converter, you could try it with all breakers off except for the converter, as well as with just the converter off. Try running other high current appliances (eg space heaters, A/C).
- if you are sure your wiring is up for it, you could replace the breaker with a non-GFI. I’d consult an electrician on that though.
- you could disconnect the trailer from the outlet ground and put in a ground stake for the trailer’s own earth ground. That may give you enough resistance in the ground path that the GFCI doesn’t trip. But I’d watch for stray/unexpected voltages and be careful—not the safest option.
- turn off the converter breaker and use a battery tender to charge the batteries until you sort it out.

[ITSNO60]

Originally Posted by DarthBrader

I believe GFCI is required for any direct burial cable over 120V. So that could be why it’s GFCI.

No, the only GFCI rule that applies to a buried cable is the one for a 120 volts or less direct bury cable protected at 20 amps or less at a residence, the minimum cover is reduced to 12" if GFCI protected at the source. Otherwise it has to follow normal burial depths which is 24" of cover, or 18" of cover if in conduit. (see column 4 in chart below)

- you could disconnect the trailer from the outlet ground and put in a ground stake for the trailer’s own earth ground. That may give you enough resistance in the ground path that the GFCI doesn’t trip. But I’d watch for stray/unexpected voltages and be careful—not the safest option.

Definitely not safe and very dangerous advice, this would leave the trailer with no way to clear a fault. If a fault occurs with a ground rod only and no connection to the service neutral you will end up with an energized ground rod and everything metal in the trailer, including the ground prongs on all the outlets will become energized at 120 volts. The earth does not carry sufficient current to clear a fault at secondary voltage levels and stand alone ground rods used in this manner create a lethal hazard and are in violation of NEC.

See responses/corrections in blue

[ITSNO60]

Don't get me wrong, temporarily lifting a ground by a qualified individual for troubleshooting is one thing but disabling the factory grounding and substituting a grounding electrode for continued user operation is a totally different and dangerous proposition.

[capt_ron777]

Thank you all for such speedy comments. Just to refresh. All has been good all summer plugged into my 50 amp outlet until I removed it for a few days. It is only since I plugged it back in that it pops the circut breaker. Nothing different has changed. Again it also pops the 20 amp. Now, when I do shut off the circut breaker to the converter it does not pop. So, why would the converter just go bad suddenly when I removed AC power and than reconnected a few days later. Again, thanks all.

[richard5933]

Why would a power converter suddenly go bad?

Could be something as simple as a loose connection on the power feed to the converter which caused it to overheat, a component inside is starting to fail and finally go to the point where it's got a minor short to ground, or any number of other things which can cause an electric device to fail.

Is your converter hardwired or is it a plug-in converter? If it's plug-in, then you might want to confirm that the converter is the problem by unplugging it and then trying again with the circuit breaker turned on. This will let you know if the problem is in the circuit or in the converter.

If it's hardwired, you might benefit from inspecting the power feeds to the converter to make sure that everything is tight and that nothing has overheated, come loose, etc.

Do you know if your

[jnm30327]

Recently I was in a campground with a 20 amp 120v outlet. The outlet had GFI protection. My trailer is 2 x120 50 amp with a Victron Multiplus charger/inverter. I made the connection to the outlet with a 50 amp converter to a 120 V single lead plug. The 50 amp connection is four wires. 2 120V legs (L1 and L2) connected to a neutral with a ground. The household connection is 2 wires and a ground. Anytime I connected this, the GFIC tripped. I think it has to do with current from L1 and L2 both going at the same time and creating unequal current to neutral, but I am not sure.

The campground was in the process of converting the old 20 amp outlets to 30 amp outlets. I asked them to disable the GFIC and everything worked as expected.

Bottom line: the 4 wire 50 amp connections are not compatible with a single leg household connection with ground fault protection.

[albret]

https://www.amazon.com/Protector-POW...s%2C119&sr=8-4

Go into AMAZON and purchase a surge protector. RV parks don't provide ground fault plugs except for 20 amp plugs. The attached surge protector will protect your trailer/camper or anything else plugged into a 50 amp service.

[Buckless]

Rain or moisture can cause problems also.

[Mcmmorford]

Sounds like the nuetral and ground are connected downstream of the gfci. Possibly the way the converter is wired. Neutral and ground must be isolated downstream stream of the gfci and should only be bonded together at the source.

[ITSNO60]

Originally Posted by capt_ron777

Thank you all for such speedy comments. Just to refresh. All has been good all summer plugged into my 50 amp outlet until I removed it for a few days. It is only since I plugged it back in that it pops the circut breaker. Nothing different has changed. Again it also pops the 20 amp. Now, when I do shut off the circut breaker to the converter it does not pop. So, why would the converter just go bad suddenly when I removed AC power and than reconnected a few days later. Again, thanks all.

What has changed is you ran your batteries down during your test so now the converter charger is suddenly drawing a big load when you plug it in and it may not be a totally linear load which can trick the gfci. I suggest you fully charge the batteries then try running off the gfci again.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jnm30327

Recently I was in a campground with a 20 amp 120v outlet. The outlet had GFI protection. My trailer is 2 x120 50 amp with a Victron Multiplus charger/inverter. I made the connection to the outlet with a 50 amp converter to a 120 V single lead plug. The 50 amp connection is four wires. 2 120V legs (L1 and L2) connected to a neutral with a ground. The household connection is 2 wires and a ground. Anytime I connected this, the GFIC tripped. I think it has to do with current from L1 and L2 both going at the same time and creating unequal current to neutral, but I am not sure.

The campground was in the process of converting the old 20 amp outlets to 30 amp outlets. I asked them to disable the GFIC and everything worked as expected.

Bottom line: the 4 wire 50 amp connections are not compatible with a single leg household connection with ground fault protection.

I don't believe your bottom line is correct. More than likely your system would have tripped a 50-amp GFCI as well. My guess is that you have one or more devices in your system which are bleeding current to the ground conductor. GFCI outlets are very sensitive to this and will trip with very little bleed to ground.

[hairyclive]

Originally Posted by capt_ron777

When i plugged backin to shore power it tripped the 50 amp breaker. I then plugged in with my adapter to a 20 amp outlet and it also tripped. After playing with all the circut breakers i found that if I flipped off the 15amp breaker to the converter it did not throw either the 50 or 20 amp outlets breaker. What does that mean? An electrician friend came by and went thru the system. He believes it has something to do with thGFI. We attached a line to a nongfi 20 amp outlet and all was fine. Converter stays on and all works with the 20 amp. I have not been able to try a nongfi 50 amp. So, what do you think?. Thought at first the converter was the issue, but that seems to be working fine when not plugged in to gfi outlet.

If your converter has a problem dealing with GFCI power you could have a ground problem internally in the converter or other wiring problem in the circuit. If that is not the case and the converter design is the problem an isolation transformer will remove any direct connection to the GFCI and stop the breaker from tripping. Of you could upgrade to a better converter.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

My first guess would be that Mr Spider and family decided to make a nice home in one of the plugs connected to the ground fault breaker. Typically they go for the outside plug, but it could be any of them. Pulling them apart ( with power off of course ) and cleaning things out / blasting with WD-40 might well be worth doing.

Bob

[DarthBrader]

Originally Posted by ITSNO60

See responses/corrections in blue

Right, my mistake. Don't isolate your trailer ground. That's a good diagram.