1969 Shell Off Mid Bath

[steinVT]

Looks like you have this project well in hand. Thought I would show you another option regarding axle reinforcement. On the Ambassador, I ended up replacing the complete attachment plate with a new 1/4" steel copy. The old one was deeply pitted with rust and the holes didn't line up with the new axles. It wasn't as hard to get off as I thought, just grind through the welds with a cut off wheel. I also found a lot of corrosion between the plate and the frame. This is a picture of the new plate.

Another thing I would suggest is to check the A-frame very closely. When I started tapping with a body hammer I found some scary things. The A frame was made up of frame channel boxed in with a plate. Since the front wasn't closed it collected water and corrosion.


This is also a good time to add a spare tire carrier if you don't have one already.


Finally here is a picture of my rotisserie. Although it's a bit of work up front, I would do it again in a second. I never liked working on my back looking up. So much easier doing insulation and belly pan - Mark

[57Vintage]

If the rotisserie interests you, I'd check around you might find a used automotive rotisserie for sale. Easy to resell if not wanted after.

[Preston West]

Happy mother's day to all applicable!
I had big plans to get lots done on the frame today. I know its mother's day, but the wife and kids are with her mamma so I had free time to work.
With rain on the forecast all week, I got a tarp to work under... Then snow started coming down in sheets which was too heavy for my tarp setup. Anyways, that explains why I am posting on mother's day ahaha.



David,
I will employ your angle iron idea to strengthen suspect areas of my frame rails. The 2x2 square tubing I plan to weld to the bottom of my frame rails-between the axle mounting plates and the frame rails if that clarifies things.
Thanks for the info and pictures of the tanks! Definitely helps me get moving on ordering them.

Lauren,
Send me a list of the accessories you would be interested in and I can take a look to see if we saved any of them.

Mark,
Thanks for the suggestion to check the Front part of the frame. I have since done a lot of tapping and poking around... No new holes in the frame so thats good. Although, I have found some bad corrosion in other areas as I clean the frame up for work.
Definitely stealing the spare tire idea from you too if I have time to add that before I put the thing back together haha.
Nice rotisserie! I am definitely going to use the gantry cranes and chain hoists to flip mine because I agree working on your back sucks.

[Preston West]

Here are the diagonal inner braces for the shell - thanks to Jerry for being the first to point that out - we had much more peace that day when we finished as there were 30mph winds.



We have gotten the axles off and out of the way. We moved the gantry cranes over the frame for flipping it. Cut off and ground down all the bad outriggers and started separating the axle mounting plates from the frame. All the welds on the top are broken free and once we flip the frame, I will finish cutting the welds off the bottom of the mounting plates. Using a chalk line and tension it appears the rear of the frame sags about 1" on the curbside and .5" on the streetside. I am not going to attempt to straighten this until the axle mounting plates are detached as they add a lot of rigidity to the frame right there.



We also did the toothpaste test on the shell to see if we have clearcoat and verified that it was a legitimate test by putting some on the upper area where the clearcoat had faded. When that turned black and the lower test area didn't, we confirmed the extra work in store for us and got some citristrip.



The wife started removing all the plastic parts to prepare for stripping the clearcoat off.



Here is aluminum I ordered, which I will make wheel well "frames" out of. Then I will attach thinner sheet aluminum to the these "frames". My plan is for part of the frame to be directly in line with the tires so that it can stop a blowout from tearing into the airstream. More on that later if I ever get around to it haha.



Thanks to everyone for the advice and encouragement! I have modified my original tank plans at the advice of you all for center of gravity reasons. I will still have the black tank where I had planned, but the grey tanks will move forward 1 bay each.

Anybody have an idea of what these holes in the rear lower section of the body might have been for at some point? They were just patched over when we got the airstream. This shows the street side one but there is an identical one on the curbside.

[Bubba L]

Preston, label everything you take off and where it went. There may be two identical items, but they may not fit in another spot. Also, the frame sag is commonplace when the shell is off. It’s scary how flimsy the frame is without the shell. I guess that’s why they call it semimonocoque construction. Before we dropped the 55 shell back on, I shot in the frame for level. You’ve got som good pictures and explanations. Good luck

[dbj216]

Hi there: You're making very good progress. Good news on the frame rails being straight. I have seen some that are literally buckled, or bent downward.

I guess the two patched holes was a "rear end separation" repair. They appear to be right over the frame rails. The body is bolted to the frame rails with a bolt from the top down through the rear body mounting plate, c channel, subfloor, and then frame rail top flange. If that bolt rusts and breaks, the agony of rear end separation is on its way. I have read about dealers cutting the exterior skins to gain access to these bolts without having to tear out the rear bath and interior skins. Some trailers have much bigger patches than yours.

This is just a guess mind you. Here is a photo of my new rear body frame bolt and body mount bolts to the rear frame cross member. The bath and interior skins were out so I had easy access.

David

[steinVT]

I had to replace the wheel wells in the Ambassador. I basically re-fabricated the factory solution, which in '62 was 20 gauge galvanized steel. I had my metal supplier shear it to width and length. I made the smaller cuts with a hand shear and then I took it back to him to use his large brake to make the top bends. I built a buck to make the final bends and then just riveted it together. Total I think it was about $60 a side.


Your trailer probably had plastic covers? I think Airstream probably did this in a cost cutting move. I can relate to your wanting to provide some protection from blow out, but my feeling is from blowout pictures I have seen, that it would take something more like 1/4" steel to provide protection. The flailing is so violent that I think aluminum isn't going to stop it. My solution is to add a tire pressure monitoring system to prevent it. - Mark

[Preston West]

Bubba,
After a closer looks at our frame, I decided to add some reinforcement for peace of mind. We did level our frame all the way around before welding it up.
Thanks

David
My frame rails were slightly buckled and bent downward(although not too bad), there are some pictures in post #15 that show it pretty well.
That is the reason why I had tubing welding to the bottom of the frame rails, I didn't trust its integrity anymore. Good call on the rear end separation kit, that's exactly what it was, there was a bolt through the c channel, rotted plywood, and frame at each of the two points.
Thanks for the insight

Mark,
You are probably right on with your galvanized steel wheel well solution.
I haven't made the wheel wells yet, but I may consider having the sheet metal shop make those along with our waste tank enclosures.
Yep ours had plastic covers along with sheet metal wheel wells.
My idea was to mitigate damage from blow outs, but also to provide more support for whatever cabinets will be mounted on top of the wheel wells on the interior, but it may just be all overkill haha,
Thanks for the ideas

[Preston West]

A lot has been done since our last update, much of which people helped us with.

Once the frame was all cleaned up and prepped as much as possible, my friend brought his welder and got to work. Big thanks to him!



First, we got the frame level. Then, we tried about 5 different techniques to get the sag out of the frame before welding.
Finally the simplest technique did the job and very easily. Its good to have firewood sitting around haha. We just stacked rounds on top of the frame until it was flat and level.



With the frame straight and level, a 2"x 18' 1/4" wall piece of square tubing was welded to the bottom of each frame rail.



I had my friend weld the ends of the tubing up with 1/8" plate to prevent corrosion as much as possible.
Other pieces that were cut off and replaced included: Outriggers, axle mounting plates, front hold down plate, the rear most crossmember where the shell attaches, and the strips of metal along the bottom of the outriggers that the shell gets riveted to.

View of the 2" tubing from the inside


View of the new axle mounting plate


New rear crossmember


New hold down plate


After the welding was completed, I borrowed a pressure washer sandblast attachment from the same friend, and we got the entire frame cleaned up.
We painted everything with 2 part epoxy from west system- very hard to work with the stuff as it sets up pretty quick and is very thick, but I think it will hold up very well.
We topcoated with a frame paint from the local true value. They had aluminum color in the spray can but not in the gallon jugs.
We ended up with parts of the frame painted ford gray(from the gallon) and other parts aluminum(from the spray cans), but I don't mind nobody will see it except everyone reading this haha.
All the parts that will be visible with the shell on were painted with the aluminum colored spray.
We painted over two days because the cure time to get a topcoat on is about one hour and we could only get to half the frame in that time.





Somewhere along the line our new axles arrived.



Last weekend my dad showed up for a visit from way out on the other side of the US. He brought with him our new tow vehicle, his old work truck. Big thanks to my dad for driving all the way out and coming to visit.



While he was here, we used his expert craftsmanship to cut our new subfloor. After it was cut and some alignment holes drilled, we removed it for easier installation of the waste tanks and plumbing.



He got pretty excited about the project so he helped my mount the new axles and get them aligned as best we could.
The step drill bits work very well for drilling through the 3/16" steel plate.



This is how we sit now, our new tanks are supposed to be here next week and I have all the plumbing ABS, valves, bends, and tees we should need to get that mounted.
After that and a tad more welding, we will be ready for the shell!

[Bubba L]

Preston, y’all are doing a class A job. Looks like there were no stones left unturned in making the chassis correct. After all, everything sits on the chassis. When you drop the shell, just double check the flexion aft of the axles. If it sagged a bit, just support it to level. The perimeter rivets and hold down plates help create the semi-monocoque design. The shell and chassis support each other. Looking good and keep us posted.

[steinVT]

Making great progress. It should be one stout frame.

The knife ends of the outriggers always bothered me. I am sure you have seen holes in the belly pan where they have pushed through. They also are tough to seal against water and vermin entry. On my second rebuild I figured out a fairly easy solution to both problems. I documented it here: https://www.airforums.com/forums/f36...rs-212694.html

Basically you attach a piece of PVC trim to each outrigger and then trim after the floor is installed. Took about two hours on my 28' frame and both problems solved. - Mark

[docflyboy]

Really nice looking work. I think you'll like the extra height you get with the square tubing addition. You may need to pop rivet a little galvanized L channel along the outside of the old frame between the outriggers to have something to pop rivet your outer wrap skin to on the under surface. I had rub holes in my wrap from the vibration and wear that the curve of the outrigger places on the back side of the wrap skin as it bends, so you probably want to think of a solution there also. As far as dissimilar metals goes, I don't see why it wouldn't be a good idea to have a sheet metal shop shear about a 6" wide piece of 22 gauge galvanized steel and let that sit against the cut edge of the outrigger curve. Maybe put a pair of little tabs on each one and pop rivet that galvanized sheet on first, then wrap with the aluminum.

Are you planning on lowering the center down, or just have the square tubing protrude below. One engineering principle to consider is that in a truss, the bottom is under tension when supported from both ends, and the top is under compression. When the truss sits supported in the middle, the tension is on the top of the truss, and the bottom is compressed. I think your solution should work great, just make sure you've got a continuous surface on top of the C-channel. The proof of the pudding will be if it stays untwisted once the load is off. If so, you're in tall cotton. My frame on the Caravel was racked 1 1/2" and when the new frame which was true was put under the shell, it proved to be an interesting challenge to marry them up. Jerry

[dbj216]

You are certainly building a stout Overlander frame. steinVT has a good idea on the end caps for the outriggers or they tend to wear through the body side wraps. Handy to have skilled friends to help out. Welding is one skill I should develop, and I think I could learn thin steel mig welding pretty easily. Puddle management they call it.

David

[PatLee]

dbj216 - google "Hazards of being a Welder" before deciding to take this up. It will alert you to all the precautions you will need to take.

[dbj216]

Hi PatLee: I worked in manufacturing my whole career, including some factories with big welding operations. We welded galvanized, stainless, aluminum, and other materials. Yep, there are safety procedures required, but nothing is more important than the health of employees. We did all we could to ensure safety.

Welders make darn good money as it is a hard job. But it can be a safe one.

David

[PatLee]

dbj216 - thank you for your response. With a career in welding, you obviously know what you're doing. My previous post was for those who casually take up welding without the precautions. It can be caustic on the lungs. I had a high school friend who did this, and I think that's why I felt compelled to respond.

[docflyboy]

Pat- thanks for your safety concern post. Also, people need to know how toxic it is to weld galvanized steel. You only get one set of eyeballs and lungs. I was taught how to weld by a famous retired Funny Car driver who hangars next to me, and he stressed all this. I agree that MIG can make it look so simple that even a Cave Man could do it, but safety first. Having said that, I've got a lot of splatter burn small scars on my balding head. Jerry

[jrousch]

We have been going round and round with potential buyers of our 1969 27' Overlander. Everything has been upgraded or new. I did some cosmetic things to the outside with accent stripes. we relisted it at $23,750, and if it sells for that price great, if not we'll keep it.

When I cleaned it up and put new Goodyear Endurance tires on it, services the bearings and brakes, lots of other stuff, we fell in love with it again.

The accent stripes and International Plaque on the side has always bugged me so I repainted them. I also took care of the damages front lower corners with some aircraft grade aluminum panels.

Looking forward to some trips later in the summer/fall.

[Preston West]

Bubba,
Thanks for the compliment and the technical advice for reattaching the shell-we did end up levelling the frame/floor before dropping the shell on and riveting.

Mark,
Good idea for the ends of the outriggers. I ran out of time to do that before we dropped the shell, but I am working on another solution because of your input.

Jerry,
I had my friend weld tabs every foot or so on the inside of the new square tubing and I will use those to attach the belly pan to. I am thinking about making some 2” aluminum strips 6” long and riveting those to the inside of the skin where it wraps around the outriggers to solve the rub problem.

David,
Thanks for the help with my tanks, I was able to get all the holes drilled and grommets installed with your help.

[Preston West]

It has been a while since the last update but, unfortunately, we did not get as many pictures as I would have liked of some of the work, but I’ll put up what I have.

Our waste tanks arrived and we mocked them up to decide on drain plumbing and mounting solutions. After we figured that out, I had my friend do some more welding. I cut out a section of the 2” steel tubing for the waste plumbing to exit the trailer and had another friend from work weld up a drop down for that part of the frame and some mounts for the tanks.

From this picture you can see the black tank (Inca H2-27 gal) mocked up.
The two grey tanks (Inca H36 with end outlets-20gal) ended up going in the frame bays directly above the axles for center of gravity concerns (thanks Jerry for bringing that up when I was in the design phase).





Here is where I marked the frame to cut the 2” steel out of the way.



This sketch shows approximately what I did to keep the rear of the frame supported while making a gap for the plumbing to go through the frame.



And this shows the finished product. I used a 3” fernco fitting to go from the black tank outlet through the frame opening and to the 3” elbow that leads to the black tank valve. I had to get a XL fernco fitting(it is about 8” long as opposed to 4”) to squeeze through my undersized frame gap(3” hole for 3” ID pipe-oops dumb mistake) and reach the black tank outlet.



I used 3-3” wide heavy steel straps across the bottom of each gray tank to support them. I bolted the straps to the cross members and glued rubber onto the straps to prevent rubbing holes in the tanks. For the black tank I used 1.5” angle iron from one frame rail to the other to support each side of the tank as it has a lip to hold it up as you can see in the first picture. I also glued rubber to those angle irons. After getting the tanks mounted and plumbed, I filled them up with water to test the support. The grey tanks are completely supported by the straps and the black tank was supported well too, but I am considering adding a pan to the bottom of it because it did sag a little bit when full. I used 2” Abs for the drain of the grey tanks and a 3 to 2” tank outlet adapter I think I got from VTS but maybe etrailer, i'm not sure. On the advice of David(dbj216), I used Sikiflex on my tank outlet adapters and a hose clamp on the tank outlet itself. To get the outlet adapter in, I did have to use a heat gun. The drain plumbing from the grey tanks runs under the original cross members, but it should still fit in the belly pan as I have added the 2” of height to the frame rails.

I had some 7”x3” ductwork made up to fit in the holes in the cross members directly above the grey tank plumbing to the side of the grey tanks. I installed that ducting because once the floor is bolted down and the plumbing underneath it, I would have zero access to that area.

After that we reinstalled the sub floor. And got to work putting holes in it for the grey tanks, black tanks, and heat duct. Again on David’s advice I used a hole saw to cut the Inca tanks and insert the grommets.

This picture shows the black tank fittings. 3” for the toilet. The 1.5” fitting closest to the 3"(under the drill in the picture) is for the bathroom sink drain(it is very close to the toilet so I may have to do some modification to the toilet to get that pipe in). The further 1.5” fitting is for the tank vent. The square hole is where my duct work comes through for the bathroom supply. I will be working on more ducting, but this is the only run that I wouldn’t have access to with the floor on.



This shows the grey tank vents. I haven’t put any of the drain fittings into the grey tanks yet as I haven’t decided if I want to drain into the side of the tanks or the top yet.



Bolting on the subfloor was pretty straight forward, although I struggled to decide what the best way to lock the fasteners in place was. First thought was double nut everything, but I decided against that after being shown a propaganda video from a company called nord-lock about fasteners and lock washers. Then I thought red locktite. After messing with trying to get the locktite on each elevator bolt for a while I ended up just taking a hammer and chisel and mashing the threads of each bolt after tightening up the nut. Hopefully that does the trick. I did level the frame up again before bolting the subfloor on.

Next thing to do was reattach the shell. This time we put some weight on the shell opposite from the awning and door(again using firewood as weight) and it went up nice and level. Sorry no pictures of the weight setup inside the shell. After backing the frame up under the shell, we completely levelled the frame before dropping the shell. My father in law and a good friend of ours from next door came to help with this and I appreciated that a lot.











This is where we are now. We used the new "C" channel on the straight runs and the old bows for the two ends with my 1/8" alu spacers. I also made a spacer for the threshold of the door as that wouldn't have sat right with the different floor thickness either. Once the shell was pulled over the subfloor, we slid the C channel into place and made sure everything was level. With the C channel in place and stretched taught, we bolted it down with a few bolts in each piece. Then we drilled and put clecos in all the way around the shell. Buck riveted the hole thing on with my father in law including the front hold down plate. The wonderful wife has helped me get the C channel completely bolted down since then.

Now we are on to sealing the shell up.