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Old 03-20-2014, 02:41 PM   #41
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Part of the problem with trying to compare rates is not just between what it might be in Canada or the US, but in the US insurance rates differ across state lines. (That is the whole issue about the ACA in that, cheaper rates "could" be available but you can't shop "across state lines" because insurance is regulated state-by-state.)

Even if you could answer the "whys" of insurance, the answer might not apply except in that state and under those circumstances with a particular company.
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Old 03-20-2014, 02:56 PM   #42
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Good points, TinTin. I've been trying to wrap my head around it too. For comparison, I just pulled a quote saying that the trailer would be used less than 30 days per year rather than full time and it came out to $432 for cash value coverage at $15K stated value (vs about $539 stating that it would be used full time). So, not too big of a difference.

(Progressive gets pretty granular about frequency of use, by the way. They have less than 30 days, 30 to 150, greater than 150, and as a residence/full time.)

Jacking up the comprehensive deductible to $5k surprisingly didn't do a whole lot for this quote either -- only dropping it by $40. That's very surprising as with a $5K deductible you are almost negating the benefit of that coverage.

They still want $279/year if I state the trailer is worth $5K and opt for a $2.5K deductible on comprehensive and $1000 on collision! This coverage actually might be something for me to consider as I feel like it would be a fight to get more than $5K from them in a claim on the trailer anyway (unless I opted for the "agreed value" coverage).

In a way, low balling the stated value to the best guess on what they would willingly pay out like this seems like a good way to make sure you're not paying more in premiums for an amount they would never pay off anyway.... so essentially I would stand a good chance of being "guaranteed" the $5K less deductible. I'd have to make sure that this would indeed be ethical and legal, and that the stated value would have the effect of limiting the policy to that amount. I think that it would be OK on all fronts.

I agree that $721 on comprehensive seems like a lot when their exposure is just $15K. On the other hand, I think you are getting a GREAT deal on your insurance for $250/year. And the $19 to $50/year they quoted me for the collision portion seems too good to be true as well.

My guess is that one factor on your rates is that a *new* Airstream is closer in-line with other items that insurance companies are covering --- in the way that it is depreciating and such. Trying to insure a vintage trailer is more of an oddball thing where perhaps they haven't thought through the policy pricing as much. But in any case, for someone to take on $70K in risk with your trailer for just $250/year seems like an amazing deal.

Hmmm. Well I'd gladly pay Progressive's quoted $57/yr for full-timer insurance and $50/yr for collision. Those are no-brainers at those prices. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't sell collision without the comprehensive... maybe not even the full-timer insurance without the whole package as well.

Not sure where to go from here. Maybe I'll get more quotes from other companies although from reading posts on Airforums it seems like Progressive has the best options for true "agreed value" coverage. I suppose that I can double check the rates I've been quoted as well, though the agent's prices seem to be pretty well in-line with the quotes I've pulled directly on the Progressive website so I have little reason to question things.

Or, maybe I'll continue with "self-insurance" as I have been to date.
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Old 03-20-2014, 03:34 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by OilnH2o View Post
Part of the problem with trying to compare rates is not just between what it might be in Canada or the US, but in the US insurance rates differ across state lines. (That is the whole issue about the ACA in that, cheaper rates "could" be available but you can't shop "across state lines" because insurance is regulated state-by-state.)

Even if you could answer the "whys" of insurance, the answer might not apply except in that state and under those circumstances with a particular company.
Interesting -- after reading this I decided to plug in some different info to the progressive quote. For address, they have "garaging" zip code (and they say to put your mailing zip if you are always moving as a full-timer) and then they separately ask for your mailing address.

I've been using my mailing address of south dakota for all of the above (which I thought could explain the expensive comprehensive rates due to extreme weather at times), but after your comment I wondered if using addresses in TX, CA and WA where I spend some time would change anything. It seems like the rates are outrageous at all the addresses I tried. Maybe they are sensing I'm fooling around with the rate calculator though as the quotes are really REALLY out there ($800+ for cash value coverage of just $5000 stated value).
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Old 03-20-2014, 05:11 PM   #44
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Tin Can Tourists

This issue isn't new - I got this just today on my email version of Tin Can Tourists newsletter - Tin Can Tales
We have great news at long last for those of you who have been searching for Agreed Value Physical Damage for your vintage rv/trailer! ...Not “Actual Cash Value” (ACV), which means virtually nothing regardless of the amount you see on your policy’s Declarations Page, and not “Stated Value,” which is open to considerable interpretation by a claims examiner in case of damage, but Agreed Value, the amount you and an appraiser determine what your rig is worth before you actually receive coverage... We have been searching for an insurance company/broker who is willing to write this type of coverage for 15 years! If you think you’re covered now for Agreed Value Physical Damage, please read your RV policy. I would bet the coverage is ACV, and the Actual Cash Value is zero for a vintage rig because unlike antique automobiles, there are no books to determine what your old rig is worth. A few may have Stated Value which is what you believe it may be worth, but not necessarily your carrier, as that amount is open to interpretation.
FCIS (Farm and City Insurance Services) in Forest City Iowa is an insurance agency/broker licensed to write a policy with Agreed Value Physical Damage and other important coverage’s for your vintage rig. Policies are written through four major carriers in all states except Massachusetts and Hawaii. The all-important Physical Damage (Comprehensive and Collision) is Agreed Value. Other important elective coverage’s for vintage rigs include Vacation Insurance (for Open House to cover bodily injury for liability for the public when your trailer is unhitched), Personal Effects, Towing and Labor, and Extra Expense for lodging when your trailer/rv is laid up while on the road. Further options are also available, and a list of more applicable coverage’s can be chosen for Vintage “Full Timing” where the rig is used as a primary residence. An entire package is offered for vintage motor homes too.
The premium for these coverage’s is surprisingly reasonable.
To qualify, you will need to call 1-800-331-1520 and let the menu direct you to the correct department to answer some questions for an application. Or, you can go to FCIS’s website rvadvantage.com for a quote. Either route will subsequently require photos of all four sides of your rig plus the interior. You will also need a typed appraisal on letterhead from a trailer/rv restoration specialist or ask FCIS for a certified appraiser in your area/state.
This is a rare opportunity for all of us. Take advantage of it through FCIS Insurance !
Now - the usual disclaimers - I don't know if you have to be a member of TCT or anything else - and if I've missed a disclaimer, then consider it included here: I don't sell insurance, don't have anything to do with it, don't intend to try to get it (I'm happy with my present policy) and have no interests in this company - just trying to contribute to the discussion!
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Old 03-20-2014, 06:56 PM   #45
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I'm not a fulltimer, but I do have an agreed value ($26,500) insurance policy from FCIS. It was a very reasonable premium of $400/yr. They do have a WBCCI discount as well as Good Sam and a few others. I did have to provide the appraisal to FCIS that was completed by Jim Polk and Assoc. I think a fair market value appraisal of any vintage trailer is well worth it the cost.
Good luck with your search!
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Old 03-20-2014, 08:15 PM   #46
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Hmmm.... actually have been dealing with FCIS and they are the ones quoting me through progressive. Arrrrg I have no idea why agreed value of $15k in my case is being quoted at double the cost of your $26.5k agreed value policy. Did they put you through progressive too?

Perhaps part of the problem is that I'm somewhat young-ish when it comes to RV'ers (I'm 43) and I'm male and single.

I'd really like to buy reasonably priced insurance with great coverage but I just don't feel like $800 to $1000 per year on a $15k trailer is all that reasonable.

Maybe I'll just do a bare bones "cash value" policy for a year to get started for now and see if the rates get any better with some history with them. If I did my tow vehicle on the same policy I would feel better about that insurance knowing I was fully transparent to them as a full timer.
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Old 03-20-2014, 09:47 PM   #47
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Appraisal Cost

What is the cost of having a professional appraisal done for a vintage (1963) AIRSTREAM?
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:54 AM   #48
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I believe my policy is with Allied. I do have my trailer stored inside a locked garage. I take it out and use it one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer. (kinda like the National Guard) I think that is why my policy is much less expensive than what you were quoted.

I previously had an $8,000 agreed value policy with Progressive. The premium was around $400/yr. After I finished the work on my '72 Ambassador and had her appraised, I raised the agreed value to $26,500 on the Progressive policy. The premium went up to $800/yr. That is when I started looking elsewhere.

Grand Master,
I'm not sure what the cost would be for an appraisal for a 1963 Trade Wind. I encourage you to contact Jim Polk. I highly recommend him. He is an active forum member here. SilverPal2
Car & Aircraft Appraisals by Polk Associates, LLC
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Old 03-21-2014, 06:13 AM   #49
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After Top recommend checking into FCIS last fall, I wound up getting a $55,000 agreed value policy from them for about $650/year.

They were really good to work with and accepted a one year old appraisal from an AS dealer. They told me one up to 2 years old was fine. They also said if I added a single high dollar item, or several items adding up to a high dollar, just call and they would bump the agreed value accordingly anytime throughout the year.

Mine is written through Allied as well. (Which I think is affiliated with Nationwide in some way????? Not positive though)

I did move my scooter with them as well (liability only) for a multi-policy discount.
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Old 03-21-2014, 08:00 AM   #50
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Ok, sounds like I should ask them what the quote would be through Allied, at least for the trailer insurance alone. They are quoting me for both my trailer and tow vehicle right now. When talking to them over the phone, they mentioned another quote they had pulled from someone else and implied it wasn't as competitive, but maybe that was for the package and not just the trailer portion. Thanks for the info.
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:00 AM   #51
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Agreed Value Insurance

I wrote the Agreed Value insurance article referenced above for vintage trailer and moho's through FCIS. It was released yesterday in Tin Can Tourists' spring edition of "Tin Can Tales" newsletter...I didn't have time to post it here. There is an addendum to the article which is the beginning of a list of rv shops/appraisers who have been recommended to write appraisals. The list, in its formative stage now, will increase with your personal recommendations and be forwarded to FCIS to be used by them when you request this kind of policy. Currently, they use an outsourced entity comprised of mostly current or previous antique automobile club judges. You don't have to be a member of TCT to get Agreed Value through FCIS and not all their policies go through Progressive, as they use three others carriers as well. I presented this as a public service to all vintage rv owners, and I've been researching this kind of program for over 15 years with some fits and starts, but mostly fits. I don't self-insure anything especially with five antique vehicles and the vintage Airstream. Self-insurance is a crap shoot. My Agreed Value policy through FCIS and Progressive cost me $155 annually for $16.5k w/$1k deductible plus Vacation Liabilty and Towing&Labor. These are NJ rates, noted for being the highest in the country and not Full-Timers. Lastly, I have no connection with FCIS or its carriers. I merely wanted to broadcast this important insurance coverage.
Here is the list of appraisers to date:
Vintage RV Restoration Shops/Appraisers

This list is the first compilation of those vintage rv restoration shops/services or vintage rv appraisers personally recommended by those responding to our recent request via Tin Can Tourists. Appraisals are required to qualify for the Agreed Value Physical Damage Insurance program through the FCIS Agency. As more referrals are received, we will add them and forward to FCIS. FCIS also uses an outsourced appraisal service in most states.
· Hindley’s Garage (Ken Hindley) Union, Ontario 519-631-1055 shop
· Heintz Design Vintage Trailers Panama City FL 1-850-632-4246
· Colin Hyde Trailer Restorations Plattsburgh NY 518-578-7772
· CanAm RV (Andy Thompson) London, Ontario 1-866-226-2678
· Retro Restoration (Larry Hill) Canon City CO 303-746-3189
· Blue Moon Caravans, Missoula MT 406-212-3672
· James Polk (appraiser), Ojai, CA 805-646-7293
· Woodland Travel Center (Craig) Grand Rapids MI 1-800-968-8688
· Doug Rowbottom, St Pauls, Ontario 519-313-5078

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Old 03-21-2014, 12:38 PM   #52
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Thanks for your info and work on this topic, Hunt. One thing I might quibble with you about is if self-insurance is a crap shoot. If insurance is overpriced, then it isn't as much of a crap shoot anymore... at least when we're talking about comprehensive and collision where everyone has a very good idea on what their financial exposure is. Liability insurance is a different gamble with a much greater financial exposure (unless you've got a rig worth a half million bucks I suppose).

I am waiting to hear back from FCIS to see if Allied might be a less expensive option than Progressive. They previously started out by quoting my tow vehicle on Allied and that was expensive so before they even priced the trailer they switched over to progressive for a quote. Crossing my fingers that it will be cheaper! It would be nice to be with the same company for both tow vehicle and trailer, but it sounds like my best hope right now two different policies.
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:30 PM   #53
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Agreed Value Physical Damage

The "crapshoot": I guess it all comes down to what you can eat financially in case of a Total Loss for a vintage rig. Being t-boned, a roll-over on an interstate, crushed by tree in a hurricane, propane explosion (all of which I've seen in 220k miles of travel with the old '55 Jimmy and GT) are things I'd rather not experience without Agreed Value. Call it peace-of-mind or an investment then. Of course, Liability coverage poses a far greater financial loss if underinsured and for some, uninsured, but even that risk can be ameliorated through an Umbrella policy for $1m or $2m at a reasonable cost. Whatever your comfort factor is vs. whatever you can take a hit on.
FCIS uses I-VAN (International Vehicle Appraisers Network) for external appraisals. Some, but not many, have experience with vintage Airstreams/other. Most, as I indicated, are car appraisers. Their rates vary according to whether they travel to you or you to them. I saw a rate of $175 for Airstreams. The list of vintage rv businesses noted in my above post may charge zero on up, depending on different factors. I would feel far more comfortable with an appraisal performed by someone in our hobby than a Mustang judge.
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:51 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy100 View Post
The "crapshoot": I guess it all comes down to what you can eat financially in case of a Total Loss for a vintage rig. Being t-boned, a roll-over on an interstate, crushed by tree in a hurricane, propane explosion (all of which I've seen in 220k miles of travel with the old '55 Jimmy and GT) are things I'd rather not experience without Agreed Value. Call it peace-of-mind or an investment then. Of course, Liability coverage poses a far greater financial loss if underinsured and for some, uninsured, but even that risk can be ameliorated through an Umbrella policy for $1m or $2m at a reasonable cost. Whatever your comfort factor is vs. whatever you can take a hit on.
FCIS uses I-VAN (International Vehicle Appraisers Network) for external appraisals. Some, but not many, have experience with vintage Airstreams/other. Most, as I indicated, are car appraisers. Their rates vary according to whether they travel to you or you to them. I saw a rate of $175 for Airstreams. The list of vintage rv businesses noted in my above post may charge zero on up, depending on different factors. I would feel far more comfortable with an appraisal performed by someone in our hobby than a Mustang judge.
Arrrrgh!
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:01 PM   #55
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Vintage Trailer Insurance

I certainly would prefer to offload my financial risk in the form of an agreed value policy, but it if I can't find one at a decent price like most of the folks posting, I'm getting into an area where I have to question the value per dollar of premium.

I did get a few new quotes this afternoon in my email that I still need to go through.

FCIS quoted me through Allied and they left a message saying it was similar to progressive though I have not reviewed the specifics yet.

Foremost sent a quote for cash value insurance on $4500 and said they did not do agreed value policies (they also said book value on my trailer was $2000 - so you can basically see the value of the policy through them). The agent put me on hold and talked to the underwriters and said that some things I have done sounded like "maintenance" to the trailer and would be unlikely to pull them off book, but they did seem to think they might have ways to cover other things like solar panels and other "improvement" items. They also talked about an appraisal though it basically sounded like they would use it as informative and it certainly wouldn't be binding as an agreed value policy would. Of course, no guarantees on what it would do in the way of informing them in the event of a loss.

Regardless, I am entertaining Foremost and a few other "cash value" quotes as a way to have some skeleton of an insurance policy and full timer coverage. I have been scouring some posts on airforums here about how various insurance companies handle claims, and I have been encouraged that it sounds like many have good experiences even with "cash value" policies (though lowball valuations are at the start of a claim are generally more of the norm than the exception). But even so, I hate to be in the position of counting on the goodness of the ins company and expecting to need to wrangle with them.

I have not found any "agreed value" companies other than progressive and allied.
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:48 PM   #56
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FYI for anyone interested in the insurance market out there, I did hear back from BlueSky Insurance and their quote was pretty reasonable on a stated value of $15K on my trailer. About the same or even better price as the lowball valuation quotes I got for "cash value" policies from other providers. At least with a $15K stated value, I have some headroom to prove the value of my trailer to them in the case of a loss (and/or to document it with them before a loss).

I just did a search to find out more about BlueSky, wondering if they were simply an agency, but it looks like they are not (or at least in the sense that others like FCIS are for the big brands). Their website says "Underwritten by RLI, a specialty insurance company rated A+ for financial strength by A.M. Best and Standard & Poor’s, the Blue Sky RV Insurance Program provides products of the highest financial standards."

I do recall reading about BlueSky in a lot of places but I'm going to have to research some of those posts again in light of this quote as it seems like a good option apart from being able to get a good agreed value policy from someone.

Oh yeah -- that was one more thing -- the representative said they are checking to see if they might be able to do agreed value but they won't have an answer until monday.

One other note: on their website where you request a quote, their forms wouldn't take 1977 as a valid trailer year. That led me to think they didn't do vintage trailers, but the guy said they indeed will do it and it is a website bug.
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Old 03-24-2014, 03:14 PM   #57
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I did hear back from Blue Sky and will be moving forward with them. I started a new thread as I thought that it was big news now that it appears there are THREE companies to go to for agreed value coverage.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f351...es-117618.html
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Old 03-29-2014, 06:18 PM   #58
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I don't know whether this is useful, but maybe. I went with GMAC several years ago. I believe it was the carrier for Good Sam. Good rates and you can cancel (maybe suspend would be a better word) for the part of the year you have it parked. There's a fee, but you'll likely come out ahead. GMAC has changed the name. I think it is National General. I don't know if they do vintage, but they were easy to deal with.

Previously we had Progressive. Their rates kept going up to pay for Flo I guess (not much expense for her wardrobe though). Then they told us we would have a big rate increase—maybe something like 30%—because we owed no money and didn't have enough credit cards. I called them and told them we had a card they didn't know about (they didn't care) and asked why someone with an excellent credit score and responsible with money was a customer they didn't want. They never answered that one. I changed all our vehicles to GMAC (trailer) and Farmers for the motor vehicles. All the premiums were less than we were paying with Progressive before the rate hike. I'd avoid Progressive unless you owe a lot of money and have 2 or more credit cards they know about.

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Old 03-31-2014, 07:18 AM   #59
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Good Sam insurance is now national general. I contacted them because our current insurance company wanted to start depreciating our vintage.

Everything was going good with the application with general until they told me that we would have get it appraised, that we would have to insure our tow vehicle with them and that our trailer would have to be housed in a secure location with theft alarms.

Moby has been just fine in our yard in the warm months and in the barn in the cold months. The snow piles up against the door anyway so have to dig it out. Our alarm system? The neighbors dog... Who barks at anything!

Right now we are staying with Farm Bureau.
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Old 03-31-2014, 07:42 AM   #60
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I highly recommend a letter of commitment of "stated value" from your agent/company. I have seen much heartache after hail storms when older AS are totaled and value at that time is extremely different than anticipated payout. My profession of 38years.
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