Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-07-2008, 09:32 PM   #71
Rivet Master
 
ROBERTSUNRUS's Avatar

 
2005 25' Safari
Salem , Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,266
Images: 18
Blog Entries: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne&Sam
For the past two days I've seen a Prevost parked in the lot of one of the seedier motels in our area. Go figure.
Hi, maybe the people in the Prevost own the motel. And many more. There is a reason for everything, but we don't always know what it is.
__________________

__________________
Bob

2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent"
[ Small Silver Castle ]
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
ROBERTSUNRUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2008, 10:25 PM   #72
Ham KI4HJX
 
1982 27' Excella
1970 23' Safari
Franklin , 28734
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 126
I choose to carry a concealed wepon not because I am afraid I just belive in the right to carry and to always be prepared. I owned a gunstore for 20+ years so collecting and shooting are one of my main hobbies. I now shoot a 22 caliber benchrest rfile (model 52 winchester). The NC test for a concealed carry deals with the law's of the use of deadley force. Your first duty is to retreat and get out of harms way. If John (80) and Irean (84) had a side arm they may be alive today Irean had time to dial 911 before Gary Hilton beat her to death. His preay was wemon and old folks. He killed them for thier credit cards.
__________________

__________________
Ramp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2008, 11:37 PM   #73
Rivet Master
 
2007 25' Safari FB SE
Suburbia , Sunny So Cal
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by ESCAPE POD
There are actually TWO recurring themes in this thread: 1) the degree of perceived threat from others while camping, and 2) how those who feel the most threatened are "packing heat". What I would like is a response to the following question:
Among those who don't feel safe without a gun while camping, who has actually displayed and/or pointed a firearm (loaded or not) at another person in self-defense while camping? Feel free to briefly describe the circumstances if you feel you were justified.


-Jerry
We boondock in the wilderness.

I once pulled my loaded sidearm and aimed it at a Mountain Lion 20 feet away. I walked around the corner of an old cabin and there we were. We had an actual staring contest and he blinked first and then walked away turning his head back every few steps to snarl. A mountain lion is one of those creatures that can eat you.

We have guns because we target shoot. It's also for emergency signaling so the wife or I can let the other one know that help is needed stat. (3 shots pause 3 shots.) Animal defense. Not all critters in the wilderness are fuzzy, cute and cuddly especially when scared/surprised or with young. Lastly for human self defense.

To me a firearm is a tool. It can be used for recreation or survival i.e. hunting or self defense.
__________________
I'd rather be boon docking in the desert.

WBCCI 6731 FCU
AIR# 13896
CA 4
Goin camping is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2008, 03:17 PM   #74
Rivet Master
 
davidz71's Avatar
 
1986 25' Sovereign
Southern Middle , Tennessee
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,148
Images: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325
Just for background, I have been active in law enforcement for over thirty years... I've worked in big cities, rural sheriff's departments, and rural cities. I am currently a police chief in a relatively small town in Iowa.

Many of these discussions aren't about guns, or bad guys. They're about the psychology of fear. We've seen that illustrated here, and I just haven't been perceptive enough to pick up on it until just now.

So, to that end, I want to give you a little perspective on sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. A guy by the name of Lt. Col (Ret.) Dave Grossman has made a career of the psychology of fear and has authored an interesting body of work on the subject.

One of the most interesting pieces he's written on this subject is called "On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs" which explains the difference in the way people see the world around them, and the way they deal with the fear of being harmed by others.

I hope you all find his essay of interest in terms of the discussion on this and other threads on the subject.

Oh... and by the way... I carry my gun in church.

Roger
Way to go Roger! I've worked in Corrections since 1973 when I started as a Correctional Officer. I worked at a maximum security prison and worked my way up to Sergeant before transfering to another max. security prison as a Lieutenant, Captain and then Associate Warden of Security. After 14 1/2 years I transfered to the Academy where I have worked for 21 years. I teach firearms, chemical agents, use of force, self defense, CPR/First Aid and numerous security/treatment modules. I've read bits and pieces of Grossman's book and have read many articles citing passages in his book. It is great stuff that the public may not even think about. Jeff Cooper's color codes for situation awareness is a good companion to Grossman's material.

I've learned that you choose to be a victor or a victim. I'd rather be prepared and come out on top than go blindly into areas and become a victim. I learned in the prison environment that it was them or me and I choose not to be the one who is seriously hurt. Being careful of your surroundings, staying out of areas know to be high in crime and being prepared is not paranoia but good common sense.
__________________
Craig

AIR #0078
'01 2500hd ext. cab, 8.1 litre gas, 5 sp. Allison auto
3.73 rear end
Mag-Hytec rear diff cover
Amsoil Dual by-pass oil filtration system
Amsoil synthetics all around
265 watt AM Solar, Inc. system
davidz71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2008, 06:32 PM   #75
Just an old timer...
 
85MH325's Avatar

 
Tipton , Iowa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,031
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidz71

I've learned that you choose to be a victor or a victim. I'd rather be prepared and come out on top than go blindly into areas and become a victim. I learned in the prison environment that it was them or me and I choose not to be the one who is seriously hurt.
Hi Craig. Ahhh, another sheepdog! Welcome to the flock.

Roger
__________________
AIR 2053 Current: 2006 Born Free 32 RQ Kodiak Chassis, & 1995 Coachmen B-van
Former Airstreams: 1953 Flying Cloud, 1957 Overlander, 1961 Bambi, 1970 Safari Special, 1978 Argosy Minuet, 1985 325 Moho, 1994 Limited 34' Two-door, 1994 B190 "B-Van"
85MH325 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2008, 06:59 PM   #76
Rivet Master
 
davidz71's Avatar
 
1986 25' Sovereign
Southern Middle , Tennessee
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,148
Images: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325
Hi Craig. Ahhh, another sheepdog! Welcome to the flock.

Roger
I'm more than happy to be here among such fine folks. May we all be blessed with great camping experiences and no bad characters to ruin them.
__________________
Craig

AIR #0078
'01 2500hd ext. cab, 8.1 litre gas, 5 sp. Allison auto
3.73 rear end
Mag-Hytec rear diff cover
Amsoil Dual by-pass oil filtration system
Amsoil synthetics all around
265 watt AM Solar, Inc. system
davidz71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2008, 09:38 PM   #77
3 Rivet Member
 
ESCAPE POD's Avatar
 
2007 19' Safari SE
Seal Beach , California
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 215
Straight answer needed

OK, I think we need some clarification on the subject of sheep and sheepdogs: Can one be a "sheepdog" without thinking it necessary to be armed with a gun? Conversely, does possessing a gun while camping make that person a "sheepdog"?

Jerry
__________________
"I have found through trial and error that I work best under duress. In fact, I work only under duress." -Ed Abbey

Jerry & Susan
2007 19' Bambi SE; 2010 Ford F-150 5.4L SuperCrew 4x4 w/ FlipPac camper shell
ESCAPE POD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2008, 09:41 PM   #78
Rivet Master
 
Fyrzowt's Avatar
 
2000 25' Safari
West of Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,697
Images: 8
Jerry,
It's more the state of mind. Do I meekly go along like a lamb or do I take/make evry opportunity to turn a bad situation into a better situation. It's about mindset. Weapons may or may not be involved. Have you read any of Grossman's writing? The link is in a post above...
Dave
__________________
Fyrzowt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2008, 10:04 PM   #79
Rivet Master
 
2007 25' Safari FB SE
Suburbia , Sunny So Cal
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by ESCAPE POD
OK, I think we need some clarification on the subject of sheep and sheepdogs: Can one be a "sheepdog" without thinking it necessary to be armed with a gun? Conversely, does possessing a gun while camping make that person a "sheepdog"?

Jerry
Yes one can be a "Sheepdog" without a firearm. A firearm is just a tool.

You can use your body, fists, feet etc. Hopefully the person attacking you is not in better shape or better trained. You can use any item that comes to hand. A rock etc.

The thing is that generally if you are in that self defense posture you are probaly not only defending yourself but also a spouse, children or other possible victims. Many feel that in a situation like that the tool to use is the most effective one. A firearm.
__________________
I'd rather be boon docking in the desert.

WBCCI 6731 FCU
AIR# 13896
CA 4
Goin camping is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2008, 10:56 PM   #80
Rivet Master
 
Fyrzowt's Avatar
 
2000 25' Safari
West of Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,697
Images: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by ESCAPE POD
OK, I think we need some clarification on the subject of sheep and sheepdogs: Can one be a "sheepdog" without thinking it necessary to be armed with a gun? Conversely, does possessing a gun while camping make that person a "sheepdog"?

Jerry
Below is a quote from Col. Grossman - keep in mind that he is a military man, hence the "warrior" terminology.

"This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin’s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.
“Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

“Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.” Or, as a sign in one California law enforcement agency put it, “We intimidate those who intimidate others.”

Dave
__________________
Fyrzowt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2008, 11:16 PM   #81
Rivet Master
 
davidz71's Avatar
 
1986 25' Sovereign
Southern Middle , Tennessee
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,148
Images: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ESCAPE POD
OK, I think we need some clarification on the subject of sheep and sheepdogs: Can one be a "sheepdog" without thinking it necessary to be armed with a gun? Conversely, does possessing a gun while camping make that person a "sheepdog"?

Jerry
Sure, you can be your own sheepdog and not be armed. Having the alert mentality is one way to start. Having a gun and not knowing how to use it does not make you a sheepdog. It might just make you dangerous to yourself and others. In my profession, you learn not to take a baton to a knife fight. With proper training and the right equipment, you can neutralize many of the threats you might encounter. With proper training and no equipment you can still put the odds in your favor.

Do I camp and sometimes not carry? Sure. I always have a telescoping baton in the door of my truck and a folding knife in my back pocket. I've never had to pull the pistol, baton or knife out to use them on anyone in the civilian population but it is nice to know that they were there should I ever need them. I do want to make you aware that I am a certified police firearms instructor who is also certified in baton usage, straight baton as well as Monodnock telescoping baton. I use to be a Taser Instructor but now only teach Nova electronic handheld and shield training. I have been trained in the equipment and feel comfortable with their use in the right situations.

Will you find me packing while at a potluck dinner or when there are a bunch of kids around? Not likely. It is usually traveling between here and my destination. Once I am comfortable with my surroundings then it goes into secure hiding, secure enough that an open house (trailer) exam would not detect it. I believe I owe this to those I camp with.

In closing, if you don't feel comfortable carrying a gun legally or keeping one in your vehicle legally, then by all means look at other equipment available. Taser does sell some handheld units to the civilian population but even Taser is not 100% effective. Same with oleoresin capsaician (pepper spray). Again, being prepared for something that may never happen makes you a smart cookie should it ever happen. I'd hate to be in a worse case senario and think "Gee, I wish I had something else besides my hands to defend myself from that _________________ (fill in the blank here with the type of threat)."
__________________
Craig

AIR #0078
'01 2500hd ext. cab, 8.1 litre gas, 5 sp. Allison auto
3.73 rear end
Mag-Hytec rear diff cover
Amsoil Dual by-pass oil filtration system
Amsoil synthetics all around
265 watt AM Solar, Inc. system
davidz71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2008, 11:48 PM   #82
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
Me I aint nothing but a hound dog. Actually I am a sheep within the context of the linked analogy which I thought was quite good. I did wonder about wolves in sheep's clothing too.

I would not carry a gun because I would not want to use it but I don't have a big problem with others carrying guns. I do prefer not to know who has them or to see a gun outside of a hunting environment. And that's just my choice.

I have spent the night on the road or camped in isolated and empty campgrounds and not felt uneasy. I have camped in populated campgrounds and felt uneasy or passed by a stop or campground I felt uneasy about. I think traveling and camping isn't much different than other circumstances and situations we encounter from time to time when we are not traveling or camping. We had the opportunity to boondock and be off road down a very long narrow single lane road quite remote and densely overgrown with no visibility beyond our immediate location and passed several people at a site and made a judgment call based on purely bias and imagination and decided we would take a pass to feel secure. Would we boondock in another area sometime, I hope so.

Perception is subjective and safety can be an elusion. But people are people where ever they go. I am a sheep.

So besides the option of being armed, for the meek sheep here, has anyone employed tactical applications and or carried any deterrents or any other devices of defense? I'd especially be interested in hearing from more women.
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 12:05 AM   #83
Rivet Master
 
Fyrzowt's Avatar
 
2000 25' Safari
West of Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,697
Images: 8
Quote:
made a judgment call based on purely bias and imagination and decided we would take a pass to feel secure.
You may have been making a judgement based on unconsious cues that you observed. This has been a well documented ability that we have. Sometimes it's called sixth sense, etc.
A great read on the subject is "The gift of fear" by Gavin DeBecker.

As to your question - I sometimes carry O.C. pepper spray if I don't feel that it's appropriate to carry a firearm.
I have never had to use force of any type in the civilian setting.

There was one situation at night at the beach in Ventura, CA. In hindsite, I feel that my instincts kept me out of trouble when a group of males I noticed began following me; I was carrying an expensive camera. I changed my direction to a more exposed and better lighted area and they turned away.
NEVER discount an uneasy feeling unless you have proof that the feeling is unfounded.
Dave
__________________
Fyrzowt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 06:35 AM   #84
Just an old timer...
 
85MH325's Avatar

 
Tipton , Iowa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,031
Images: 37
Being a "sheepdog" is a mindset. Like the cop on the commuter train described by Grossman, knowing what your assets are and knowing how they can be used to gain tactical advantage in a crisis is being a sheepdog:

Quote:
There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory acts of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

However, when there were cues given by potential victims that indicated they would not go easily, the cons said that they would walk away. If the cons sensed that the target was a "counter-predator," that is, a sheepdog, they would leave him alone unless there was no other choice but to engage.

One police officer told me that he rode a commuter train to work each day. One day, as was his usual, he was standing in the crowded car, dressed in blue jeans, T-shirt and jacket, holding onto a pole and reading a paperback. At one of the stops, two street toughs boarded, shouting and cursing and doing every obnoxious thing possible to intimidate the other riders. The officer continued to read his book, though he kept a watchful eye on the two punks as they strolled along the aisle making comments to female passengers, and banging shoulders with men as they passed.

As they approached the officer, he lowered his novel and made eye contact with them. “You got a problem, man?” one of the IQ-challenged punks asked. “You think you’re tough, or somethin’?” the other asked, obviously offended that this one was not shirking away from them.

“As a matter of fact, I am tough,” the officer said, calmly and with a steady gaze.

The two looked at him for a long moment, and then without saying a word, turned and moved back down the aisle to continue their taunting of the other passengers, the sheep.
I have had many such moments in my career, all of them ending with the wolves wandering off without engaging me; the desired result. I am a counter-predator. I will not be intimidated, nor harmed. I am not boasting, it is a choice I have made. I also take great pride in not appearing as a counter-predator to my friends or when I'm in social situations. It's not likely you'd pick me out of a crowd as a sheepdog on any given day, and I'd doubt many of the folks here who have met me socially would identify me that way. That anonymity is a consciously honed skill that allows me to get closer to the wolf who also can't identify me as a counter-predator until I choose to be identified, another survival skill.

Attitude, confidence in one's skills, and the desire to go
Quote:
sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night
is what differentiates the sheepdog from the sheep; whether he is armed is almost irrelevent, and certainly a firearm isn't necessarily always the tool of choice. In fact in most instances improvised weapons from the environment will work just as effectively as something designed as a weapon.

Heavy, expensive cameras make an excellent improvised "mace" when slung around on the end of a heavy camera strap. For you ladies, any of the aerosols you carry in your purse, especially spray perfumes, in the eyes of an attacker, are a great distraction. One of the most effective improvised defensive/offensive impact weapons available is the end of a thin magazine (like Time or Newsweek) rolled into a tube. Used as an impact weapon, the magazine is stiff, durable, and is quite debilitating when jabbed forcefully into the right parts of the body. Pens and pencils make effective improvised weapons. A hot cup of coffee can be a very effective distraction tool. (All, by the way, are readily available on commercial airliners.) And distraction as a tactic is one of the best defensive tools that can ensure that whatever offense you plan immediately after has a better chance of succeeding. Likewise, recognizing a distraction for what it is immediately preceeding an offensive attack is equally important so you can be prepared for the attack.

The common theme continues to be an awareness of your environment, and a constant assessment of your options, and HAVING A PLAN.

Those are the kinds of skills that sheepdog learn and hone that allows them to survive in what Grossman terms that "toxic, corrosive moment".

Roger
__________________

__________________
AIR 2053 Current: 2006 Born Free 32 RQ Kodiak Chassis, & 1995 Coachmen B-van
Former Airstreams: 1953 Flying Cloud, 1957 Overlander, 1961 Bambi, 1970 Safari Special, 1978 Argosy Minuet, 1985 325 Moho, 1994 Limited 34' Two-door, 1994 B190 "B-Van"
85MH325 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fridge safety 76'Sovereign Refrigerators 18 09-20-2006 12:36 PM
for your safety codybear Off Topic Forum 26 09-15-2006 03:35 PM
Jacking safety Rog0525 Jacks, Stabilizers, Lifting and Leveling 0 10-07-2003 04:17 AM
Driving Safety jpurdy On The Road... 0 09-16-2003 11:29 AM
Safety chain femuse Hitches, Couplers & Balls 4 04-19-2003 09:26 AM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.