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Old 03-07-2008, 01:57 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bambi_Bandit
Point in telling this story is that yes, there are those who choose to carry firearms, but the firearm itself is not adequate defense. One must be able to understand and quickly analyze the situation before concluding to use it. There are many who take a class to obtain a permit to carry guns, but in my opinion, the class does not adequately teach the thought process leading up to its use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bambi_Bandit

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the right to bear arms, but there are many out there that don't fully grasp the responsibility that comes with carrying a gun. I think only training, experience, and common sense can best qualify a person to carry a gun, but that's just my opinion.
Kevin:
Thank you for your valuable reply to my post. It’s clear from your story that you appreciate and value the alternatives to deploying a firearm, and that a gun is, and should be, the carefully considered response of last resort. Your comments (I’m assuming the product of a law enforcement background) stand in stark contrast against comments on this, and other forums, suggesting many guns are carried as a response to naked fear, and not experience. When I think of the combination of alcohol, fear and access to a gun by my fellow campers, I’m even more concerned for my safety while camping. I just wish more forum members had your “sober” and responsible take on camping while armed.

-Jerry
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Old 03-07-2008, 02:16 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Jim Clark
...snip... I worked in a Federal Office and could not carry but he didn't know that. He had figured out the blind spots and would approach from the side as soon as a door opened. I worry what thugs will try to do to more passive individuals.
I also worked in the Federal sector. Although I wasn't an actual law enforcement officer, I carried a law enforcement ID (black book) because of the nature of my job. Whenever I flew for work, I had to show that ID when boarding a plane.

The first time I was asked if I was carrying I had a puzzled look on my face (what the heck would I be carrying, anyhow?) The gate agent looked at me again and said "sir, are you armed?" I looked at her and said, "yes, I have two of them." That was the wrong thing to say!
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Old 03-07-2008, 02:45 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by ESCAPE POD

Kevin:
Thank you for your valuable reply to my post. It’s clear from your story that you appreciate and value the alternatives to deploying a firearm, and that a gun is, and should be, the carefully considered response of last resort. Your comments (I’m assuming the product of a law enforcement background) stand in stark contrast against comments on this, and other forums, suggesting many guns are carried as a response to naked fear, and not experience. When I think of the combination of alcohol, fear and access to a gun by my fellow campers, I’m even more concerned for my safety while camping. I just wish more forum members had your “sober” and responsible take on camping while armed.

-Jerry
Jerry - that was very well said. The combination of alcohol, fear and a gun can be very scary.

Although I firmly believe in people being able to excercise their constitutional rights I also can't help but believe the current system in place for procuring a weapon is seriously deficient. It really comes to light with incidents like Va Tech, the Amish schoolhouse shooting and scores of others. The seem to happen weekly now. Anyhow, that's not the point of my post.

I lived in Washington DC for 27 years, Rod lived there for 30. We didn't live in a remote quiet suburb - we lived in a very urban neighborhood in the District (a local term for in-town DC.) In all my years there, we never felt threatened or afraid. We had to exercise some street smarts but we enjoyed the city day and night. Overall we felt pretty safe there. As a matter of fact, we were gone for 2 weeks once on vacation and our kitchen door was unlocked the whole time!

I haven't camped in a while and we're getting the AS in a few weeks. After reading several of these posts, I'm beginnig to wonder if I wasn't safer in DC than I will be camping again! Are there any folks here that have had any problems camping or is it just a perceived fear? I've heard of a couple of campers murdered on the Appalachian trail but that was years ago. Are the incidents low or am I just not hearing about them?
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Old 03-07-2008, 02:58 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimandrod
Are there any folks here that have had any problems camping or is it just a perceived fear?
Answer: Most of us value our lives and that of our families. therefore, in the remote instance we have to defend our lives, we chose a firearm.
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Old 03-07-2008, 03:06 PM   #65
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Old 03-07-2008, 03:34 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by dmreilly10000
Answer: Most of us value our lives and that of our families. therefore, in the remote instance we have to defend our lives, we chose a firearm.
Actually, I realize that - and I don't have a problem with it. I know the point you are making and I understand your choice and totally respect it.

But - I wasn't asking why people carry guns, I was aksing if anyone here has had a serious problem while boondocking. That's what I'm really wondering.
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Old 03-07-2008, 03:40 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimandrod
Are there any folks here that have had any problems camping or is it just a perceived fear?
It's a perceived fear, which prompted my asking for REAL stories of peril from members, instead of the scary movie scenarios. Don't let naked fear stop you from enjoying your Airstream; pure common sense will be your best protection.

-Jerry
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Old 03-07-2008, 04:10 PM   #68
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Just for background, I have been active in law enforcement for over thirty years... I've worked in big cities, rural sheriff's departments, and rural cities. I am currently a police chief in a relatively small town in Iowa.

Many of these discussions aren't about guns, or bad guys. They're about the psychology of fear. We've seen that illustrated here, and I just haven't been perceptive enough to pick up on it until just now.

So, to that end, I want to give you a little perspective on sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. A guy by the name of Lt. Col (Ret.) Dave Grossman has made a career of the psychology of fear and has authored an interesting body of work on the subject.

One of the most interesting pieces he's written on this subject is called "On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs" which explains the difference in the way people see the world around them, and the way they deal with the fear of being harmed by others.

I hope you all find his essay of interest in terms of the discussion on this and other threads on the subject.

Oh... and by the way... I carry my gun in church.

Roger
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Old 03-07-2008, 07:02 PM   #69
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I think some level of common sense can go a long way...for all other situations where someone wants to do something bad, I do pack a handgun and I don't make any excuses for it. I want it, I have it and it's legally registered. I follow all the laws as to it's transport and ownership.

Do I ever really want to use it? Nope, but I sleep well knowing it's there. I go boondocking way, way up north, no cell signal, 30 miles in the state forests, at least 30 minutes from a cell signal or civilization.

Even with that handgun though, things can still happen and you just have to do you best and use your head first. I think if I lived my life in total fear, I'd never go into a skyscraper or venture outside the house.
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Old 03-07-2008, 08:05 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325
...
So, to that end, I want to give you a little perspective on sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. A guy by the name of Lt. Col (Ret.) Dave Grossman has made a career of the psychology of fear and has authored an interesting body of work on the subject.

One of the most interesting pieces he's written on this subject is called "On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs" which explains the difference in the way people see the world around them, and the way they deal with the fear of being harmed by others.

I hope you all find his essay of interest in terms of the discussion on this and other threads on the subject.

Oh... and by the way... I carry my gun in church.

Roger
Absolutely fascinating! Thank you for sharing that Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs link.

I am "sheepish" most of the time, but take a healthy view of paranoia as a survival tool, and try to actively avoid situations that might be trouble. I feel that instincts are not always right, but may not be wrong. I guess I really don't want to find out what I am "missing" when I get that "move along, don't stop here" or "don't go there" feeling.

We do overnight in Wal-Mart when traveling, and only once had a restless evening when a latenight group (5 or 6 carloads) of young adults had a rather loud disagreement in the parking lot. I had a flashback to many years ago when I watched a riot escalate into property damage and overturned cars. But, nothing happened. We now try to find Wal-Marts in little towns with hopefully very few late-night parties. (We're not staying in Dearborn (or Dearborn Heights, or whatever); in fact not in Michigan at all! But not because of fear, it's just too far North!)
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Old 03-07-2008, 08:32 PM   #71
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For the past two days I've seen a Prevost parked in the lot of one of the seedier motels in our area. Go figure.
Hi, maybe the people in the Prevost own the motel. And many more. There is a reason for everything, but we don't always know what it is.
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Old 03-07-2008, 09:25 PM   #72
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I choose to carry a concealed wepon not because I am afraid I just belive in the right to carry and to always be prepared. I owned a gunstore for 20+ years so collecting and shooting are one of my main hobbies. I now shoot a 22 caliber benchrest rfile (model 52 winchester). The NC test for a concealed carry deals with the law's of the use of deadley force. Your first duty is to retreat and get out of harms way. If John (80) and Irean (84) had a side arm they may be alive today Irean had time to dial 911 before Gary Hilton beat her to death. His preay was wemon and old folks. He killed them for thier credit cards.
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Old 03-07-2008, 10:37 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESCAPE POD
There are actually TWO recurring themes in this thread: 1) the degree of perceived threat from others while camping, and 2) how those who feel the most threatened are "packing heat". What I would like is a response to the following question:
Among those who don't feel safe without a gun while camping, who has actually displayed and/or pointed a firearm (loaded or not) at another person in self-defense while camping? Feel free to briefly describe the circumstances if you feel you were justified.


-Jerry
We boondock in the wilderness.

I once pulled my loaded sidearm and aimed it at a Mountain Lion 20 feet away. I walked around the corner of an old cabin and there we were. We had an actual staring contest and he blinked first and then walked away turning his head back every few steps to snarl. A mountain lion is one of those creatures that can eat you.

We have guns because we target shoot. It's also for emergency signaling so the wife or I can let the other one know that help is needed stat. (3 shots pause 3 shots.) Animal defense. Not all critters in the wilderness are fuzzy, cute and cuddly especially when scared/surprised or with young. Lastly for human self defense.

To me a firearm is a tool. It can be used for recreation or survival i.e. hunting or self defense.
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Old 03-08-2008, 02:17 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325
Just for background, I have been active in law enforcement for over thirty years... I've worked in big cities, rural sheriff's departments, and rural cities. I am currently a police chief in a relatively small town in Iowa.

Many of these discussions aren't about guns, or bad guys. They're about the psychology of fear. We've seen that illustrated here, and I just haven't been perceptive enough to pick up on it until just now.

So, to that end, I want to give you a little perspective on sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. A guy by the name of Lt. Col (Ret.) Dave Grossman has made a career of the psychology of fear and has authored an interesting body of work on the subject.

One of the most interesting pieces he's written on this subject is called "On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs" which explains the difference in the way people see the world around them, and the way they deal with the fear of being harmed by others.

I hope you all find his essay of interest in terms of the discussion on this and other threads on the subject.

Oh... and by the way... I carry my gun in church.

Roger
Way to go Roger! I've worked in Corrections since 1973 when I started as a Correctional Officer. I worked at a maximum security prison and worked my way up to Sergeant before transfering to another max. security prison as a Lieutenant, Captain and then Associate Warden of Security. After 14 1/2 years I transfered to the Academy where I have worked for 21 years. I teach firearms, chemical agents, use of force, self defense, CPR/First Aid and numerous security/treatment modules. I've read bits and pieces of Grossman's book and have read many articles citing passages in his book. It is great stuff that the public may not even think about. Jeff Cooper's color codes for situation awareness is a good companion to Grossman's material.

I've learned that you choose to be a victor or a victim. I'd rather be prepared and come out on top than go blindly into areas and become a victim. I learned in the prison environment that it was them or me and I choose not to be the one who is seriously hurt. Being careful of your surroundings, staying out of areas know to be high in crime and being prepared is not paranoia but good common sense.
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Old 03-08-2008, 05:32 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by davidz71

I've learned that you choose to be a victor or a victim. I'd rather be prepared and come out on top than go blindly into areas and become a victim. I learned in the prison environment that it was them or me and I choose not to be the one who is seriously hurt.
Hi Craig. Ahhh, another sheepdog! Welcome to the flock.

Roger
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Old 03-08-2008, 05:59 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by 85MH325
Hi Craig. Ahhh, another sheepdog! Welcome to the flock.

Roger
I'm more than happy to be here among such fine folks. May we all be blessed with great camping experiences and no bad characters to ruin them.
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Old 03-08-2008, 08:38 PM   #77
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Straight answer needed

OK, I think we need some clarification on the subject of sheep and sheepdogs: Can one be a "sheepdog" without thinking it necessary to be armed with a gun? Conversely, does possessing a gun while camping make that person a "sheepdog"?

Jerry
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Old 03-08-2008, 08:41 PM   #78
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Jerry,
It's more the state of mind. Do I meekly go along like a lamb or do I take/make evry opportunity to turn a bad situation into a better situation. It's about mindset. Weapons may or may not be involved. Have you read any of Grossman's writing? The link is in a post above...
Dave
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Old 03-08-2008, 09:04 PM   #79
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OK, I think we need some clarification on the subject of sheep and sheepdogs: Can one be a "sheepdog" without thinking it necessary to be armed with a gun? Conversely, does possessing a gun while camping make that person a "sheepdog"?

Jerry
Yes one can be a "Sheepdog" without a firearm. A firearm is just a tool.

You can use your body, fists, feet etc. Hopefully the person attacking you is not in better shape or better trained. You can use any item that comes to hand. A rock etc.

The thing is that generally if you are in that self defense posture you are probaly not only defending yourself but also a spouse, children or other possible victims. Many feel that in a situation like that the tool to use is the most effective one. A firearm.
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Old 03-08-2008, 09:56 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by ESCAPE POD
OK, I think we need some clarification on the subject of sheep and sheepdogs: Can one be a "sheepdog" without thinking it necessary to be armed with a gun? Conversely, does possessing a gun while camping make that person a "sheepdog"?

Jerry
Below is a quote from Col. Grossman - keep in mind that he is a military man, hence the "warrior" terminology.

"This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin’s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.
“Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

“Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.” Or, as a sign in one California law enforcement agency put it, “We intimidate those who intimidate others.”

Dave
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