Basic Towing Questions and answers for tow vehicles

[pteck]

Originally Posted by tommgr

New here hi all and thanks for all the info!!

So ok we did a 180 last year on the expressway towing my 27' Cloud. Was a perfect 180 and everything was fine but dont care to repeat. I went to heavy duty tires, which helped a lot, and now am going to purchase a pick up. Thinking the F-250.

Whats the consensus for a tow vehicle?? Will a pickup help stop sway?

Scary stuff and I'm so glad you all made it out of the incident no worse for wear.

A 3/4 ton is not the magic bullet for sway, and they have some inherent compromises themselves. Would be worthwhile to read this thread as they are not impervious to sway - http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ay-169341.html

As mentioned, it works as a system. It's worth the due diligence to set things up right.

Particularly:
1) keep enough tongue weight
2) Apply enough WD tension to restore ~1/2 the weight back to the front axle
3) Get a drop shank (or modify the shank) that keeps the ball as close and tight to the rear bumper as possible. Even minor inches is important here.

[tommgr]

Thanks for the all info. We had just pulled out of the Airstream Dealer a half hour before the accident happened. So I have to believe my set-up was good. The only thing I can consider iffy is putting bikes on the back. We had five bikes on the back hitch. On the way back we loaded up the tongue weight and took the bike off. It was better but not great.

I think I will look at new hitch and sway system. I have the BLUE OX SWAYPRO WEIGHT DISTRIBUTING HITCH and that seem to stick out pretty far. The dealership did the leveling while we were hooked up. I have towed a pop up for 10+ years and never had a problem.

It was a Chevy Chase moment when came to a perfect stop parallel to the yellow lines "Well kids how did ya like that??" I have four girls. Good thing I didnt panic and started moving the wheel a lot!!

First photo are the skid marks
Second is photo is the day we picked it up - it was empty not loaded

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by tommgr

... Will a pickup help stop sway?

Sway is started by the trailer and no, a big pickup truck will not stop the situation that you experienced. Proper loading, hitch and lower speed will all help to prevent future sway incidents.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by tommgr

Thanks for the all info. We had just pulled out of the Airstream Dealer a half hour before the accident happened. So I have to believe my set-up was good. The only thing I can consider iffy is putting bikes on the back. We had five bikes on the back hitch. On the way back we loaded up the tongue weight and took the bike off. It was better but not great.



I think I will look at new hitch and sway system. I have the BLUE OX SWAYPRO WEIGHT DISTRIBUTING HITCH and that seem to stick out pretty far. The dealership did the leveling while we were hooked up. I have towed a pop up for 10+ years and never had a problem.



It was a Chevy Chase moment when came to a perfect stop parallel to the yellow lines "Well kids how did ya like that??" I have four girls. Good thing I didnt panic and started moving the wheel a lot!!



First photo are the skid marks

Second is photo is the day we picked it up - it was empty not loaded

Wow - so glad you didn’t get hurt!

First - your assumption it must have been right coming from the dealer may or may not be valid. My dealer didn’t install my hitch correctly....

Second - 5 bikes on a back hitch? I think we’ve identified your root cause!

There are multiple threads in here about bikes (or much of anything) hanging off the back of a trailer - and hitches off the back of a trailer. There are a handful who think it’s no problem. The general consensus is that it’s an absolute no-no both for the likelihood of inducing sway and for the possible frame damage it can cause on Airstreams due to their unique semi-monocoque construction.

Glad you can laugh about it today - I’d have soiled myself and likely given up altogether!

5 bikes off the back will ruin a good day for sure and having a Mack truck up front won’t stop that trailer from being unsettled....

Good luck and safe and happy camping to you and yours!

[Acheron2010]

The definitive video on how balancing the load can contribute to trailer sway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fkOVHAC8Q

[Gene]

Five bikes may not weigh that much compared to the weight of the trailer. Let's say they weigh an average of 30 lbs. each, thus 150 lbs. total. Lets guess the trailer was fairly full and weighed 7,000 lbs. The bikes weigh 2% of the total weight. Even if the trailer was empty and the bikes weighed 40 lbs., the percent isn't that different.

However, I don't know how full the trailer was, how much the bikes weigh and how to calculate the lateral force of the bike weight at the rear of the trailer. That's only part of the analysis. Where are the engineers who understand this?

When we bought our trailers, the hitches had not been set up correctly. Our first was an Equalizer. I think it is a very good hitch, but the dealer didn't care to spend the time to adjust it. Once I did so, it worked a lot better. Our second one did not have enough tension on it when we left the dealer. I experimented and increased the tension substantially and it tows a lot better. I can't remember the name and it is not stamped on it, so I'm guessing it is a Blue Ox. Blue Ox has a pretty good reputation. I think the Equalizer is a better hitch, but it does take some work and a lot of thinking to get it adjusted right if you've never done it before. The hitch is the first place I would look for problems. A suspension shop may be the place to go to get advice on the hitch.

What started the sway that result in a 180? Wind, slippery road, operator error? Are the tires inflated enough? Are the trailer brakes working? What did you do to stop it? Immediately speeding up is one way to straighten a trailer in some circumstances, slowing down gradually is another. Standing on the brakes may aggravate the forces causing sway. Hard braking is the usual response. The skid marks indicate hard braking. It may slow the lateral forces, but not change them. I think once the trailer has rotated enough for the driver to notice, it could be too late to stop the lateral force.

Looking at the photos, it seems you went into the median. Lucky not to turn over and did you cross over to the opposing lanes? The far embankment looks fairly steep.

[rmkrum]

Part of sway mitigation is to hit the gas and hit the manual lever on the brake controller to get the trailer to get back in line. Problem is that it takes time to realize the situation, react properly, and not get the trailer skidding.

That said, it is far better to properly load the trailer, with enough tongue weight, and drive conservatively to keep from getting into the situation in the first place.

Yes, I have a ProPride system, but I do not abuse it by driving too fast for conditions or not properly loading the trailer to 10-15% tongue weight. The ProPride works to keep the trailer in line, but if I screw up the loading, don’t have weight distribution set right, and drive too fast, I can still go off the road sideways in perfect alignment or roll the rig from a lack of traction or full control.

Technology is not a substitute for being careful. You can’t engineer your way out of stupid. Nor can you just “kick the tires, light the fires, and just take off” as they say in aviation. Proper loading, the checklist completed, and a reasonable approach to travel speed will mitigate a lot of possible problems. As they say, “there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots. There are no old, bold pilots.” Be careful out there.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Part of sway mitigation is to hit the gas and hit the manual lever on the brake controller to get the trailer to get back in line. Problem is that it takes time to realize the situation, react properly, and not get the trailer skidding.

Much better said than the way I wrote it—I forgot about the trailer brakes.

To react immediately and sensibly, takes practice so it becomes automatic. Otherwise, we hit the brakes hard. And when things start to go bad, few people will reach down or over to activate the trailer brakes while they have a death grip on the steering wheel. If there were a switch on the wheel to turn on the trailer brakes, that would be helpful.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by Gene

...snip...
If there were a switch on the wheel to turn on the trailer brakes, that would be helpful.

Brilliant! Classic case of engineers needing to spend more time with actual users (user experience design). That is an absolutely perfect idea!

While we’re at it - can we put the stinking GPS on the main dash in place of the 5” speedo and 5” RPM gauge? Both of those can be reduced to digital numbers - then use 9” for display of GPS so I don’t have to take my eyes so far off the road. Heads up on the windshield - even better!

Some engineer from the truck manufacturers ought to spend some time with real campers...

[OTRA15]

A "switch" on the wheel [as opposed to a spring-loaded slider on the brake controller close to the wheel] could turn out to be a situation of "be careful of what you wish for, or you may surely get it!"

The slider control for the trailer brakes lets you tailor the degree of braking to the situation. It is not an all-or-nothing operation. Most "switches" are on/off deals.

In a crisis situation [requiring trailer braking], the hand on the wheel may be turning the wheel as ONE operation to avert an accident. Imagine having to find the trailer brake switch as the wheel is turning back and forth wildly! Imagine having to operate a slider as the steering wheel is rotating?

Really?



Preparation is the key. Be observant all the time. Be alert in rain and snow, rush hour traffic, and when a big rig passes in either direction.

Have one hand ON the brake controller BEFORE the crisis starts. After a sway event, most drivers can remember a point when they SHOULD HAVE [by their own admission] anticipated the sway.

Get your head into that awareness beforehand.

Simple to say . . .

Vigilance!

Peter

PS -- My Dad was a WW II fighter pilot, and he drove a car looking WAY down the road. I was always amazed at what he was observing many blocks ahead of us. Thank you for those lessons!

[SteveSueMac]

Good point, Peter - but what would prevent a manufacturer from making it a stationary slider in the center of the steering wheel? Let the rest of the wheel rotate around it - but have the brake controller in a more visible, ergonomically natural location....

[OTRA15]

. . . by "re-inventing the wheel" . . . ???



If it ain't broke don't fix it IMO.

Easy to over-think this.

Have a good weekend.

Peter

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

. . . by "re-inventing the wheel" . . . ???



If it ain't broke don't fix it IMO.

Easy to over-think this.

Have a good weekend.

Peter

Don’t be such a Luddite [emoji23]

How about this - a pedal for emergencies that applies trailer brakes and the gas at the same time!

[OTRA15]

Luddite R. I.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

[SteveSueMac]

No - this: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Luddite

[Gene]

The reason people don't drive with one hand on the brake controller is that is is often mounted somewhere hard to reach in an emergency, and would require you to drive with one hand. Yes, a switch can be, but doesn't have to be on/off. The word implies on/off, but it can be a slider or something spring loaded. The manufacturers took forever to include brake controllers on the dash, so they aren't going to change anything for years. It would be an aftermarket thing mounted on the steering wheel somewhere. Please send royalties to me after you perfect this thing. Of course, I don't think many people would never use it since 180's or dangerous sway is pretty rare.

[dznf0g]

I had an old brake controller, hayes I believe, which had a wired remote thumb button activator with a velcro strap. I kept it attached to the gear shift lever. So, not a new idea. GM did relocate the manual itbc slider in 2015 on trucks up high by the headlight switch for these very reasons.

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by Acheron2010

The definitive video on how balancing the load can contribute to trailer sway.

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Luddite R. I.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

Beware all you Luddites:

Mill and factory owners took to shooting protesters and eventually the movement was suppressed with legal and military force.

[SteveSueMac]

Re: dznf0g - good to know. Mine’s a ‘13 so it’s sort of by my left knee. I’m starting to like my extra pedal suggestion [emoji3]

Re: Luddites - such literalists! [emoji3] I’m going for the broader “anti-tech” flavor here - I’m not connected to the actual movement [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[pteck]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

How about this - a pedal for emergencies that applies trailer brakes and the gas at the same time!

This exists, and you may even have it.

Many Tekonsha prodigy controllers have a "boost" brake function. I use it at freeway and higher speeds. It effectively initiates trailer braking with more trailer brake bias the moment the brake pedal is touched. By sensing the brake lamp coming on. This is before the inertial brake function comes into play, hence boost. It's adjustable to different levels from B1 to B3.

In this way, trailer brakes lead the tow vehicle keeping the lashup in tension. It may very well save a sway condition too.