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Old 11-09-2020, 01:44 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by panamerican View Post
One other point I'll mention not directly related to my points with Gator is the liability portion. Sure we've talked hardware, but I don't recall seeing a lot of liability conversation in this thread (didn't read every single sentence though).

I have spoken with at least 3 different insurance agents in my tenure as an Airstream owner. I had asked pointed questions to them that went something like this (when I was doing what Gator and a good number of others are doing):

I have a vehicle that I have modified. It has a 5500lb factory rated tow capacity and I want to tow (at the time) a roughly 7300lb trailer if fully loaded, could be closer to 6800, but let's say 7000 for arguments sake. I have about a 115" wheelbase and a big honkin V8 with about 300hp and wicked upgraded brakes, etc. If something goes wrong, what could I be looking at?

All three answers fell along these lines +/-

You should always follow manufacturer specifications. We cannot suggest you do otherwise, however, if you did this and there was an accident, we would do our due diligence and we would find that you had the incorrect vehicle setup that exceeded the manufacturer's specifications, particularly if there were other parties involved and they were insured with a different carrier as the other carrier will try to assign liability. If the fault was found to be yours, we would pay the claim up to your policy limits and anything beyond those limits would be your responsibility. In our exp, you would in all likelihood be dropped shortly thereafter and getting insurance after being dropped would be fairly costly both long and even worse short term. Additionally, if you did the modifications yourself and God forbid loss of life or significant injury in your party or that of another you encounter on the road happened (as can often happen with 5-6 tons of hardware in motion), you would be most likely liable should a civil suit be brought and we would pay up to your policy limits. If you contracted with a company it's entirely possible the company that did the installations could also be named in a civil suit.

I then ran this by a couple of lawyer friends and they seemed to concur for the most part with these statements with a few small exceptions based on perception and what they could or couldn't argue out in a court case (gotta love lawyers). They also mentioned that given society today, it doesn't take a whole heck of a lot to get sued and that regardless of what folks say, the discovery phase will look at all the variables, and, given what you've described, I can't see it going well for you. If you do this, make sure you have a sizable liability policy as you have assets you could loose.

So you see, it's not just that it's not a great idea, without proper non seat of pants engineering docs you **could** open yourself up to another whole dimension. It's kind of like saying I keep my 5 gallon gas can in the basement 10 feet from the furnace and water heater. For 10 years, I never had a problem, but one year the fumes ignited and the house burned down due to my negligence. Insurance companies are like Casinos. They aren't in it to lose money. They have small armies of lawyers and such who's sole job it is to find ways to pay nothing or pay as little as possible. Given that reality, it's not hard to see who could get the short end of the stick if the music stops. The house always wins. How much do you want to gamble at the high stakes table?!
You forgot to tell them that you read on Airforums that it was ok. That would change things.
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Old 11-09-2020, 02:13 PM   #222
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JCL-

Honestly they didn't care. A lawyer can make the argument and that's all that's required in a civil suit where personal injury or death is involved. Get a sympathetic jury and it can go sideways quick. In terms of the insurance company, they don't care how the manufacturers make the rating, they have available engineering documents that say "X". If say Mercedes were to get hauled into court as another named party in a civil suit, do you really think Mercedes Benz is going to say in open court, our tow ratings were conservative? Opposing counsel would have a field day with that. MB is going to say, our tow rating is 7700lbs. On cross, it would come out that the trailer weight even 1/2 full as Gator suggests would in fact exceed that rating basically dealing a blow to a defense in a liability case. Then the question of CanAm being hauled in and then asked to provide engineering specs that allow the 7700 to be exceeded, that Andrew himself here on this thread said he doesn't have and you can see how this can be twisted pretty easily costing everyone down the line.

I've been the foreman in two civil cases and I can tell you the technical info we received in both cases was good to know, however, the underlying question in both cases- was the individual negligent in any way and you have certain guidelines you need to follow when rendering a decision.

Again, fair or not, that's the way the courts tend to work and given 1/2 the US is very liberal, can easily equate to a hefty settlement, right, wrong or otherwise. In this case, basically handing freebie points to the plaintiff's camp.

I have by the numbers (and IMHO), an acceptable setup, is it as nimble as the Benz, prob not, but it's one less bullet for opposing counsel and I also carry a million dollar liability policy which also requires more than the standard 100/300/100 (which in most cases can get used up in a few seconds).

I am in agreement that there are many variables outside of tow ratings in terms of overall safety. The average juror that doesn't tow won't see or understand that, what they will see are gruesome pictures of injuries, property carnage and specs that were not adhered to. Case in point, that woman that burned herself from McDonald's coffee that got millions of dollars with cups now telling you your hot beverage is in fact really hot. You don't have to be right to win....as with towing safely there are many variables in a court case with mostly novices in that field of understanding relying on the lawyers to share the info.
I was making the opposite point. If I was the plaintiff's attorney and was in a towing case, I would ask you how your published tow rating was defensible or applicable. Unless you were towing a trailer identical to the one used by the manufacturer in establishing the rating, and under identical conditions.

I would be very concerned to be towing in the US with only $1m in liability coverage. Unless there were liability caps, in which case we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Old 11-09-2020, 02:33 PM   #223
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This is a great discussion.

What I am seeing is compilation of examples by the camp who feels that the manufacturer's limits are more guidelines and with some adjustments the TV can safely tow the desired trailer.

And the camp that sees the limits as the upper threshold and strives to stay well below these numbers.

And the ever present legal/liability ramifications that are always lurking.

We know that these new super SUV's are very powerful and have amazing stopping capabilities. Performance wise, they are exceptional. So how do they fail as proper TV's? The manufacturer's limits applied seem to be the key. Given that most of these super SUV's come from the European market where caravans are typically lighter and towing restrictions are different.

Trying to make one of these powerhouses work in NA with our heavy trailers could be where this disconnect has occurred.

I suspect that there are not very many F450's or Peterbuilt's pulling trailers in Europe.

Just for clarity, I have a heavily modified VW 1.9 TDI with Cayenne brakes and a custom made class 2 hitch. I used it to pull my Camplite which was the same size as a 16' Bambi but half the weight (~2,000 lbs). The car doesn't have a towing capacity listed but the manufacturer did note in the manual "Towing capacity not available at time of printing".

We tried some evasive driving and braking when we first set it up and it was amazing. I could stop the trailer on a 10% grade as quickly as if the trailer wasn't there. Our Honda takes much longer and requires more foot pressure.

My example is a bit smaller scale than the RSQ8 - 27' Globetrotter combo, but I thought I would share that. My TDI was far more capable than my current TV but current TV has the published numbers that I am working with. So the Honda has the numbers but does not inspire confidence like VW.

I have lived on both sides of this discussion.

I wonder if Andy from CanAm can chime in on any of this as I am sure this conversation has come up many times before?
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Old 11-09-2020, 02:55 PM   #224
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I wonder if Andy from CanAm can chime in on any of this as I am sure this conversation has come up many times before?
He can, and has done so previously, but the core issue IMO is that of the two camps that you describe, one regards him as an expert witness and the other doesn't.
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:19 PM   #225
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I was making the opposite point. If I was the plaintiff's attorney and was in a towing case, I would ask you how your published tow rating was defensible or applicable. Unless you were towing a trailer identical to the one used by the manufacturer in establishing the rating, and under identical conditions.

I would be very concerned to be towing in the US with only $1m in liability coverage. Unless there were liability caps, in which case we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
I think if you stick with the manufacturer’s limits you are more likely to avoid the courtroom all together. CanAm might provide an expert witness but wouldn’t you rather not need one?
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:36 PM   #226
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I think if you stick with the manufacturer’s limits you are more likely to avoid the courtroom all together. CanAm might provide an expert witness but wouldn’t you rather not need one?
This is exactly the point. I’ll never say that you can or can’t “safely” tow trailer X with vehicle Y (except of course for obvious situations, i.e. “look at my Honda Fit towing this 34’ Panamerica!”). What I will say is that once you exceed the stated limits you *no longer know* if your combination is safe. While you can’t always be sure you’re safe while you’re within the manufacturer limits you can at least be reasonably confident that you’re “doing it right”, and reasonably confident that if something does go wrong you’re not going to spend the rest of your life paying for someone else's lawyer’s boat.

Those two reasons are enough for me.

Hell, I can easily see someone being charged with negligent homicide if they got someone killed in an accident after having posted all over the internet about how they’ve exceeded the manufacturer’s guidance but it’s fine because “Andy in Canada said so” or because “it feels fine”.
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:09 PM   #227
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Most posts on this thread are still misunderstanding what a vehicle maker means by 'towing capacity'. Nowhere is it suggested or implied that it includes towing via an overhung hitch. It is, in essence, what it can pull on the end of a rope.

It may well be reasonably safe tow a trailer that, when laden, is a few per cent heavier than the laden tow vehicle if you keep your speed below about 60 mph. The example being discussed on this thread, however, is in my opinion (as an ex automobile research engineer) not safe even at that speed.

Why on earth spend so much money on an Airstream - yet not on what tows it?

What so many respondents are overlooking is that a rig that seems stable in normal driving may not be in an emergency high speed swerve. There is no safe way of 'testing' this.

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Old 11-09-2020, 04:38 PM   #228
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Most posts on this thread are still misunderstanding what a vehicle maker means by 'towing capacity'. Nowhere is it suggested or implied that it includes towing via an overhung hitch. It is, in essence, what it can pull on the end of a rope.

It may well be reasonably safe tow a trailer that, when laden, is a few per cent heavier than the laden tow vehicle if you keep your speed below about 60 mph. The example being discussed on this thread, however, is in my opinion (as an ex automobile research engineer) not safe even at that speed.

Why on earth spend so much money on an Airstream - yet not on what tows it?

What so many respondents are overlooking is that a rig that seems stable in normal driving may not be in an emergency high speed swerve. There is no safe way of 'testing' this.

Collyn
Actually, North American manufacturers generally do expect these vehicles to utilize an overhung hitch, and provide tow ratings based on that configuration.

For vehicles such as pickups that can use a gooseneck or 5th wheel hitch, they provide supplemental ratings. The overhung hitch ratings have qualifiers with them for whether WD is used or not. The test standard that they quote to is designed around overhung hitches.
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Old 11-09-2020, 05:33 PM   #229
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The OP asked a simple yes/no question, “are we nuts or in love”. My vote is that you are nuts to use the Audi as a TW.
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Old 11-09-2020, 06:03 PM   #230
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Collyn, it sounds like a simple guideline to follow: compare the loaded weight of TV and then set your sights on a trailer that is very close or even a tad lighter than the TV. Shoot for a 50/50 ratio.

That would make sense as a starting point.

In the Audi's case the Manufacturer is supporting the 7,700 lbs towing capacity when the curb weight of the Q8 is just over 5,300 lbs. Probably closer to 6,500 lbs when loaded up.

The challenge is to fit the recommended tongue weight for the Q8. It seems that Audi wants to settle in at 10% TW.

The 27' Globetrotter has a loaded weight of 7,600 lbs. and the tongue weight will most likely come in around 1,100 lbs. if keeping with the 14% TW that Airstream seem to be using on this trailer.

TW seems to be the challenge in this setup.

Why not keep the trailer on the lighter side at ~7,000 lbs. then load the trailer accordingly to achieve 770 lbs. on the tongue? Sure it is a hassle to pull the propane tanks and stick them over the axles. This will get the TW up to 11% which is on the lower end of acceptable. Then keep the speed down below 60 mph. and add a sway control device.

I would put up with this for a while because I really like the RSQ8 and the GT27'. Add a WDH to shift some weight to the front axle. I would be within the spec's set out by Audi which should ward off the lawyers.

In the end, I think the weight would be close to 50/50.
Trailer: ~7,000 lbs,
Audi: 5,300 GVW + 770 TW + ~1,000 Cargo = ~7,000 lbs.

I am starting to feel the "RS love" but I do like almonds as well!
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Old 11-09-2020, 08:17 PM   #231
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For safety sake of others, consider this


A 10% tongue weight in gusty wind conditions is an exciting time. Then when a semi passes you doing 75( Utah, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Arizona and Wyoming) one gets the double gust treatment.

Not sure if the wind in Wyoming ever drops below 20 mph.
One could always rent a capable tow rig and keep their very nice Sporty SUV. The local AS dealer here rents trucks. Getting the feel of a 27 foot trailer with a very capable tow rig might give some insight in how towing 2 tons feels. Tow vehicles are not limited to trucks. I personally tow with a van. But the trailer weighs less than the van. No wdh, just drop the trailer on the ball, hook up the safety chains and go.
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Old 11-09-2020, 11:03 PM   #232
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An interesting and entertaining discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
...the manufacturer's tow rating that you are relying on to keep you safe is not based...

Safe towing comes from far more than a manufacturer's tow rating.
The manufacturer's ratings are not guarantees that you will be safe if you stay within them. However, they very clearly state that no one should ever exceed them. The ratings cover a small fraction of the important variables, ignoring for example, length of the trailer and where the weight is located within the trailer. What happens if you exceed the manufacturer's ratings? Well, that depends. Are there ways that one could modify a tow vehicle to increase it's ability to tow a larger payload? Of course. However it will not be legally recognized by anyone. Each of these is a "can" vs "should" decision and it is going to be up to the individual, at least for those of us in the United States. Consequences, if any, will also be borne the individual and sometimes by innocent bystanders.

I hear a mantra repeated in these threads over and over: "I have been towing for xxx years and yyy miles with zzz tow vehicle/trailer combination and I have never had a problem." Some seem to think that because someone else has successfully towed with this combination that it is ok (or even safe) for them too. For those people I would direct you to the following quote from one of Collyn's articles: "...the most after-accident reaction is: ‘my rig always seemed so stable until it suddenly jack-knifed’." In finance they say "past performance does not guarantee future results". I would say that this also applies to towing in general and specifically to the edge cases under discussion in this thread.

Safe towing does come from far more than the manufacturer's tow rating. Many if not most of those variables have been discussed in great detail in this thread. The limits specified are based on an "acceptable" failure rate. As you approach the limits, your failure rate will increase. If you exceed the limits, the failure rate will continue to increase. If you exceed multiple limits, both those specified by the manufacturer and those that are generally accepted by the towing world you are more likely to find yourself in a bad way if you encounter an exceptional situation. How much more likely? Lots of measurements and lots of math to figure that out. Any TV pulling an AS can hit a patch of ice and jack-knife. No rig is immune to accidents. The best we can do is to try to keep our rigs within an "acceptable" failure rate. Since I am not an expert, I don't have any way to calculate that so the best I can do is make sure I educate myself and try my best to reduce any variable that looks like it might be a large factor in failure rate. For me when it comes to towing, living on the edge is not where I want to be.
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Old 11-10-2020, 04:49 AM   #233
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A few years ago an Airstream owner from California traveling in Michigan was sent to us by Airstream to have some warranty issues resolved. They were towing with a terrible hitch on an F350 the combination of which was causing many of their Airstream’s problems.
While they we’re waiting for repairs a very experienced customer came in with their Cayenne to pickup their trailer. The people from California mentioned that they had a Cayenne they loved sitting at home. The customer was nice enough to take them for a ride in their Porsche with the Airstream. The customer could not believe how much better it towed. They left the Airstream with us drove home sold the truck brought the Porsche back and we set it up for them. They were just delighted but could not understand it until they drove it. On these sorts of threads I am always amazed how people think they can be an expert about a combination of tow vehicle trailer and hitch system they have never driven.

At our store we take customers for test drives every day. One of those people was the engineer in charge of all specialty vehicle approvals for Ontario. He brought along the first G meter I had seen. We took out a 300 and 30’ Classic that it happened to be connected to. We did panic stops emergency lane changes and went around a declining radius entrance ramp I like .65G if I remember correctly. He was suitably impressed. We then sold him a 28’ that he towed with his Honda Odyssey.

I think sometimes well intentioned people read a thread like this and think there are 5 people out there that tow with SUV’s or Front Drive Vans sedans etc. So something like the Q7 is highly experimental. However it is a very well proven tow vehicle.

We started using Touareg’s 18 years ago, X5’s 19, ML’s for 20 years. Chrysler 300’s for 17 years. Front drive vans since 1998 and front drive sedans since 1987. We have setup over 3000 front drive vans close to 2000 European SUV’s.

The horror stories you talk about simply have never happened in millions of miles of towing. Our own dealership has towed millions with these vehicles. Our 07 Mercedes is actually lucky when it gets to tow an Airstream most of its miles are towing 37’ tall gangly box trailers.

Think about the properties of physics and how terrible they are on a HD truck. Is a narrow suspension stance better than a wide one? Can that very tall centre of gravity be better? Is a hard brick LT tire going to have more traction than a sticky high performance tire. Is vehicle with a lonnng stopping distance suddenly going to get better because a trailer was connected. Is it not important to have precise communicative steering so you can feel what the tires a doing? Don’t get me started on polar inertia.

More sheet metal does not necessarily make better tow vehicle. Easier to market yes better, safer no.
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Old 11-10-2020, 08:30 AM   #234
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Think about the properties of physics and how terrible they are on a HD truck. Is a narrow suspension stance better than a wide one? Can that very tall centre of gravity be better? Is a hard brick LT tire going to have more traction than a sticky high performance tire. Is vehicle with a lonnng stopping distance suddenly going to get better because a trailer was connected. Is it not important to have precise communicative steering so you can feel what the tires a doing? Don’t get me started on polar inertia.
Attachment 382908
I’m ignoring the anecdotes because that’s just more of the same “we’ve been doing it and so far so good”.

As far as suspension stance, a 2020 Porsche Cayenne has a front track of 66.2” and a rear track of 65.8”. The 2020 Ram 2500 (I can’t speak for other trucks because I haven’t researched them) has a front track width of 68.7” and a rear of 68.1”. The shock absorbers on the Ram are mounted as far outboard as is possible without mounting them directly to the wheel hub itself. I have no illusions that the Cayenne isn’t a better handling vehicle (I’ve driven them, there’s no doubt), but if we’re going to claim to be honest people here then let’s stick with accurate information.
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Old 11-10-2020, 09:27 AM   #235
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The track on the truck is 2" wider but the stance of the suspension is only 44" at the rear and 52" at the front. That is because it has live axles. Picture it if your springs were side by side 6" apart in the center of the truck the truck would fall over sideways. The wider the springs are apart the more stability you have. With independent suspension the stance is projected to roughly width of the track 64" vs 44".

On a pickup independent rear suspension would not be a huge benefit however as the frame would just twist due to the larger inputs from the suspension. That is why a Honda Ridgeline has to have a solid body.

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Old 11-10-2020, 09:33 AM   #236
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I think this thread has run it's course. In the end Andy will continue to have customers that swear by his methods that are not considered best practice, and then there will be folks like I on the other side of that conversation.

I can only say in closing that you can go a million more miles with your customers Andy. At some point, and I pray I am wrong, something is going to happen, and when it does, you may very well be faced with a number of things that you never thought you'd be facing. What you are doing at best is making the best out of a bad situation and that end result to you and to some may seem satisfactory, but in the end, I absolutely cringe when I see pictures like the last one you shared.
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Old 11-10-2020, 01:01 PM   #237
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The track on the truck is 2" wider but the stance of the suspension is only 44" at the rear and 52" at the front. That is because it has live axles. Picture it if your springs were side by side 6" apart in the center of the truck the truck would fall over sideways. The wider the springs are apart the more stability you have. With independent suspension the stance is projected to roughly width of the track 64" vs 44".

On a pickup independent rear suspension would not be a huge benefit however as the frame would just twist due to the larger inputs from the suspension. That is why a Honda Ridgeline has to have a solid body.

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I would think the location of the shock absorbers would be far more relevant than the location of the springs, since the shocks are what’s providing the resistance to change in the suspension position.
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Old 11-11-2020, 07:10 AM   #238
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