|
|
08-28-2021, 01:07 PM
|
#1
|
3 Rivet Member
2017 25' Flying Cloud
Bushnell
, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 128
|
Lithium battery charging
Recently had 2 Battleborn batteries installed along with a Victron Blue Solar charge controller 150/35 for the 180 watts of solar on the roof. I also have 2 Zamp portable suitcases of 140 watts each.
The portable solar is what I'm confused about. They're connected directly with the Airstream installed port on the tongue so they're not going thru the Blue Solar charge controller. When the Victron BMV-712 shows I'm charged to around the 80% level (this level varies) one of the portable panels will show "ful" and quit sending power to the batteries. It's doing it right now and the voltage on the batteries according to the BMV-712 is 13.4 volts.
The controllers on the portable panels are 10 amp controllers (Zamp assured me two controllers would work together nicely).
I was under the impression that the lithium batteries would accept lots of power up until they got close to full charge, and I'm hoping 80% is not close to full charge.
Is this normal behavior?
Thanks.
|
|
|
08-28-2021, 03:05 PM
|
#2
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,744
|
Hi
Welcome to multiple controllers fighting with each other. What you see is *very* normal for a multi controller setup. The only answer is to go with networked controllers that all understand the "big picture".
Bob
|
|
|
08-28-2021, 04:34 PM
|
#3
|
2 Rivet Member
2021 25' Globetrotter
Austin
, Texas
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 97
|
You might also want to make sure the suitcase panels are set to the lithium's voltages. If they are set for lead then they will think they are done early.
__________________
2021 Globetrotter 25FBT
2020 F250
Austin TX
|
|
|
08-29-2021, 06:51 AM
|
#4
|
"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by wareaglewalt
Is this normal behavior?
Thanks.
|
Yes...pretty much.
You are charging thru an independent system which some say is not possible. It's worked fine for us for 4 Seasons now.
We also use 2 Zamp 180w portables charging thru the the 7-pin umbilical.
I've found when setting up if I connect both panels to their Y connector and then attach to the the 7-pin it helps, as they both start at the same time.
But one panel will always drop as the charge reaches float stage. They don't charge above the absorption rate using the panel controllers.
POI...it's NOT a $6-10k system....a 3k MacGyver DIY.
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
|
|
|
08-30-2021, 07:01 AM
|
#5
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,744
|
Hi
What happens with multiple controllers *is* that one shuts down early. You get *some* charging out of them all, but you don't get full charging out of all of them. To keep things balanced as you get towards full charge (and very small voltage changes) the controllers need to each know what the other one is doing. Then they will all stay "on line" right to the end of the charge cycle.
Bob
|
|
|
08-30-2021, 07:23 AM
|
#6
|
"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
|
When does the "charge cycle" end...when the sun goes down?
I'm not concerned about cycling, as long as the BB's stay above 12.5v.
I do not use an integrated charge system, the Zamps are stand alone.
I may not have the largest brain pocket, but what I do have has served me well.
So far.
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
|
|
|
08-31-2021, 07:51 AM
|
#7
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,744
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS
When does the "charge cycle" end...when the sun goes down?
I'm not concerned about cycling, as long as the BB's stay above 12.5v.
I do not use an integrated charge system, the Zamps are stand alone.
I may not have the largest brain pocket, but what I do have has served me well.
So far.
Bob
🇺🇸
|
Hi
Ok, since you asked for more details ....
As the battery is charged (any battery) the voltage goes up. That's just how the chemistry works. At some point they get to a voltage that signals this or that to the controller. In the case of lithiums the signal says "we're full". In the case of lead acids the signal says "don't jack the voltage up any more, but no, we aren't full ... see, we're still pulling lots of current ...."
On a lead acid, the point that the voltage stops going up is roughly the 80% charge level. You run from 50% to 100% so this is just barely past "half way" in terms of usable capacity. Lead acids can spend a lot of hours in this range before they are fully charged. Four hours is not at all uncommon.
Both batteries charge cycle is "complete" when they are fully charged. The charger voltage then drops back to a lower level and just sits there. On an RV this may be problematic due to the loads on the battery. (The charger *assumes* current goes to a very low level ...).
With multiple solar controllers one of them spikes or drops. A decision is made by one of them due to the current change that the battery is now "full". It drops back to a low output voltage. Since the other one is still chugging along, there is now no current out of that controller and it says to it's self "hey, I made the right decision". It says in low voltage mode.
Can another blip come along? Sure it can. They can swap places. It depends on loads in the trailer and light to the panels driving the controllers. It also depends a bit on just how the controllers firmware has been written.
So will fighting controllers put current into your batteries? Sure they will. Will you get any use at all out of one of the other controller once they start fighting? No, you won't get any benefit from that other controller. If the 100W portable just shut off the 400W on the roof, it will be a while before the batteries get charged.....
Bob
|
|
|
08-31-2021, 08:08 AM
|
#8
|
"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
Hi
Ok, since you asked for more details ....
As the battery is charged (any battery) the voltage goes up. That's just how the chemistry works. At some point they get to a voltage that signals this or that to the controller. In the case of lithiums the signal says "we're full". In the case of lead acids the signal says "don't jack the voltage up any more, but no, we aren't full ... see, we're still pulling lots of current ...."
On a lead acid, the point that the voltage stops going up is roughly the 80% charge level. You run from 50% to 100% so this is just barely past "half way" in terms of usable capacity. Lead acids can spend a lot of hours in this range before they are fully charged. Four hours is not at all uncommon.
Both batteries charge cycle is "complete" when they are fully charged. The charger voltage then drops back to a lower level and just sits there. On an RV this may be problematic due to the loads on the battery. (The charger *assumes* current goes to a very low level ...).
With multiple solar controllers one of them spikes or drops. A decision is made by one of them due to the current change that the battery is now "full". It drops back to a low output voltage. Since the other one is still chugging along, there is now no current out of that controller and it says to it's self "hey, I made the right decision". It says in low voltage mode.
Can another blip come along? Sure it can. They can swap places. It depends on loads in the trailer and light to the panels driving the controllers. It also depends a bit on just how the controllers firmware has been written.
So will fighting controllers put current into your batteries? Sure they will. Will you get any use at all out of one of the other controller once they start fighting? No, you won't get any benefit from that other controller. If the 100W portable just shut off the 400W on the roof, it will be a while before the batteries get charged.....
Bob
|
Sorry,this is one thing I don't have a photo of...BUT.
I have had one Zamp portable panel controller shut down and the second will continue charging. Just lucky I suppose.
Disclaimer.....I have NOTHING on the roof.
With all my posts on my system I thought that was clear....my bad.
Bob
🇺🇸
Myth?
BTW I don't believe he's in an AS.
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
|
|
|
08-31-2021, 08:51 AM
|
#9
|
3 Rivet Member
2017 25' Flying Cloud
Bushnell
, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 128
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS
Sorry,this is one thing I don't have a photo of...BUT.
I have had one Zamp portable panel controller shut down and the second will continue charging. Just lucky I suppose.
Disclaimer.....I have NOTHING on the roof.
With all my posts on my system I thought that was clear....my bad.
Bob
🇺🇸
Myth?
BTW I don't believe he's in an AS.
|
Well I do have rooftop panels as well as portable. Right now I'm at 65% charge on the batteries, the rooftop panels controlled by the Blue Solar are kicking in 4-5 amps of the total 9 amps going into the batteries according to the BMV-712 and state of charge is 13.39 volts. The portable panels are doing 4-5 amps but only one suitcase is participating. The other says Full. Zamp Support says they understand Battleborn batteries to be fully charged at 13.4 volts which is somewhat true, butt I'm still in the bulk charging phase which I'm thinking the batteries should be taking anything they can get. One other note is the Blue Solar is MPPT and the Zamp portable is PWM.
If this behavior from the portables is the way it's going to be then I'll accept it. Not happy with it though. I was hoping the charging algorithm/profile on the portable's controller would be better suited. When I bought them and told Zamp Support my exact setup they said it would work. I guess it does, technically.
|
|
|
08-31-2021, 09:45 AM
|
#10
|
"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by wareaglewalt
Well I do have rooftop panels as well as portable. Right now I'm at 65% charge on the batteries, the rooftop panels controlled by the Blue Solar are kicking in 4-5 amps of the total 9 amps going into the batteries according to the BMV-712 and state of charge is 13.39 volts. The portable panels are doing 4-5 amps but only one suitcase is participating. The other says Full. Zamp Support says they understand Battleborn batteries to be fully charged at 13.4 volts which is somewhat true, butt I'm still in the bulk charging phase which I'm thinking the batteries should be taking anything they can get. One other note is the Blue Solar is MPPT and the Zamp portable is PWM.
If this behavior from the portables is the way it's going to be then I'll accept it. Not happy with it though. I was hoping the charging algorithm/profile on the portable's controller would be better suited. When I bought them and told Zamp Support my exact setup they said it would work. I guess it does, technically.
|
Why not happy?...your BB's are charged to 13.4 ?(FULL)
Do you want more?
I use our Zamp portable 'solar' to charge when needed.
To maintain is a whole 'nuther matter.
FWIW when we first started with the Zamps I had a 140 & a 180 they still 'played' well together.
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
|
|
|
08-31-2021, 10:12 AM
|
#11
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,744
|
[QUOTE=ROBERT CROSS;2532847]Sorry,this is one thing I don't have a photo of...BUT.
I have had one Zamp portable panel controller shut down and the second will continue charging. Just lucky I suppose.
Disclaimer.....I have NOTHING on the roof.
With all my posts on my system I thought that was clear....my bad.
Bob
Myth?
BTW I don't believe he's in an AS.
Hi
Yup, one wins the fight and the other one looses the fight. The winner keeps charging and the other one goes to sleep. If they both are equal capacity, you now get half as much charging horsepower.
Bob
|
|
|
08-31-2021, 10:55 AM
|
#12
|
Rivet Master
2022 25' International
Savage
, Minnesota
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 753
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS
Sorry,this is one thing I don't have a photo of...BUT.
I have had one Zamp portable panel controller shut down and the second will continue charging. Just lucky I suppose.
Disclaimer.....I have NOTHING on the roof.
With all my posts on my system I thought that was clear....my bad.
Bob
[emoji631]
Myth?
BTW I don't believe he's in an AS.
|
This video was very informative. I feel educated on the subject.
__________________
"I've got aluminum fever, and the only prescription, is more AIRSTREAM!!!"
'64 Safari Resoration Blog ("May"):
https://ts8501.blogspot.com/
TAC MN-6
WBCCI/VAC 11736
AIR 25979
|
|
|
08-31-2021, 10:56 AM
|
#13
|
"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
|
[QUOTE=uncle_bob;2532889]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS
Sorry,this is one thing I don't have a photo of...BUT.
I have had one Zamp portable panel controller shut down and the second will continue charging. Just lucky I suppose.
Disclaimer.....I have NOTHING on the roof.
With all my posts on my system I thought that was clear....my bad.
Bob
����
Myth?
BTW I don't believe he's in an AS.
Hi
Yup, one wins the fight and the other one looses the fight. The winner keeps charging and the other one goes to sleep. If they both are equal capacity, you now get half as much charging horsepower.
Bob
|
But what does that matter I'm charged to 13.4 and I usually just fold 'em up for three or four daze 'til I need to charge again?
I couldn't care less about 'maintaining' a set number.
I should live in Austin Tex I guess. 🤔
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
|
|
|
08-31-2021, 01:45 PM
|
#14
|
Rivet Master
2017 16' Sport
N/A
, N/A
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 1,789
|
Lithium battery charging
I have been told that the Battleborn batteries will limit the incoming charge to float status as it approaches a full state of charge regardless of output of panels.
|
|
|
09-01-2021, 07:24 AM
|
#15
|
3 Rivet Member
2017 25' Flying Cloud
Bushnell
, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 128
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS
Why not happy?...your BB's are charged to 13.4 ?(FULL)
Do you want more?
I use our Zamp portable 'solar' to charge when needed.
To maintain is a whole 'nuther matter.
FWIW when we first started with the Zamps I had a 140 & a 180 they still 'played' well together.
Bob
🇺🇸
|
If you'll go back and re-read the post you'll see I said the BMV is reporting state of charge in the 60% range, voltage is 13.4. Something's weird here.
|
|
|
09-01-2021, 07:38 AM
|
#16
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,744
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet
I have been told that the Battleborn batteries will limit the incoming charge to float status as it approaches a full state of charge regardless of output of panels.
|
Hi
Lithium batteries will not "boil off / dry out" if held at high voltage the way lead acid's will. They still are not happy if kept at max voltage all the time. AFIK, none of the BMS's drop the voltage to the batteries. If you put in 14.X, the battery is either connected or it's shut off. Shutoff happens above 14.6V.
Bob
|
|
|
09-01-2021, 07:46 AM
|
#17
|
"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by wareaglewalt
If you'll go back and re-read the post you'll see I said the BMV is reporting state of charge in the 60% range, voltage is 13.4. Something's weird here.
|
Ok got it...
POI....It took me 5 tries at adjusting the settings to correctly approximate the SOC...it can be a moving target.
Bob
🇺🇸
Mine, may not apply to yours...
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
|
|
|
09-01-2021, 08:34 AM
|
#18
|
"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
|
Todays read-out.
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
|
|
|
09-02-2021, 08:05 AM
|
#19
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,744
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS
Todays read-out.
Bob
🇺🇸
|
Hi
Looks like it may be time for another tweak on the settings ....
All of these shunt based gizmos are playing math games to work out what's what. That works, but only to a degree. One of the magic settings is the "I'm full now, let's call this 100%" setting. If you hit this on a daily ( or even every few days) basis, the math errors don't pile up. Run on Solar for a few weeks and never quite hit the "full" point and the minor math errors pile up.
Bottom line, you still do watch voltages. 13V on a lithium is in the vicinity of 30% to 40% charged rather than 86%.
Bob
|
|
|
09-02-2021, 03:23 PM
|
#20
|
"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
|
[QUOTE=uncle_bob;2533498]Hi
Looks like it may be time for another tweak on the settings ....
All of these shunt based gizmos are playing math games to work out what's what. That works, but only to a degree. One of the magic settings is the "I'm full now, let's call this 100%" setting. If you hit this on a daily ( or even every few days) basis, the math errors don't pile up. Run on Solar for a few weeks and never quite hit the "full" point and the minor math errors pile up.
Bottom line, you still do watch voltages. 13V on a lithium is in the vicinity of 30% to 40% charged rather than 86%.
Bob[/QUOT
No thanks, we be happy where we are...
At 200 we we stop at 20.
It's an approximate no matter the dartboard parameters. 🤔
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
|
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
Similar Threads
|
Thread |
Thread Starter |
Forum |
Replies |
Last Post |
Battery converter not charging battery
|
airstreamz |
Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar |
7 |
10-21-2023 03:10 PM |
Lithium battery, TV battery and 7-way plug charging
|
hovr |
Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar |
67 |
08-31-2022 04:39 PM |
Charging lithium batteries from our tv
|
TouringDan |
Batteries, Univolts, Converters & Inverters |
49 |
08-07-2021 10:26 AM |
Solar charging lithium battery
|
kootenayken |
Batteries, Univolts, Converters & Inverters |
28 |
08-06-2021 08:53 AM |
How to not blow up your alternator charging Lithium
|
daleyocum |
Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar |
6 |
01-05-2021 09:38 PM |
|
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|