Does $4000 sound reasonable for Lithium

[irush]

Our 2021 FC came with a converter that had a LiIon jumper on the back of the converter. Battleborn LiIon are on sale now. Two heated batteries for $1900. And you don’t really need heated, so it can be more like $1700. IMHO $4000 is highway robbery. A new converter is around $300, so no mater how you spin-it $4k is steep. If this is a dealer, I’d believe the steep price. But I’m sure AMSolar in Oregon could do this at a lower cost if you don’t have the desire or knowledge to DIY.

[Mikemdd]

Originally Posted by thewarden

Here are a few that I have seen.

Probably a silly question but my understanding is that the battery charging wire in the trailer to truck connector is a 12 gauge wire. How does that size wire handle the mega amperage from the alternator discussed in the videos?

[uncle_bob]

[QUOTE=thewarden;2539731]Here are a few that I have seen.



Hi

Right and *none* of those are talking about a trailer setup. They all are talking about a van. That's a *very* different situation. It's not just apples to oranges, it's apples to bricks.

On a van you can do this or that with giant wire and quickly get in trouble. Simply strapping lithiums to an alternator through 4/0 cable is not a good idea in a van. It is a very real problem.

On a trailer you simply can't deliver major current through the charge wire. The wire gauge is quite small. It has resistance. That limits the practical current. If you try to go crazy (like with a dead battery) the breaker in the trailer will pop, the truck fuse will blow, or the power module will cut off the 7 pin.

Indeed, the "dead battery" case is no different lithium or lead acid. They both are going to put a big time load on that charge wire. The protection is there (in part) because of this.

Bob

[latarheel]

Originally Posted by John Spilker

Hi, We just purchased a 2021 22-foot Caravel but haven't been pleased with the lead-acid battery performance. We live in the rainy Seattle area and will do most of our camping in the Pacific Northwest so solar isn't high on our priority list. We've been quoted $4000 for a Battle Born lithium conversion. I assume our trailer needs a new converter to handle the batteries. It seems like a lot of money but I've never purchased such a thing before. Thanks.

Be thankful, I just got my quote to upgrade a 2021 23FB International from AGM to Battleborn lithium for $10,600 installed by AS Chandler, AZ. Ironically, I asked for Lithium when I ordered in 2020 from JC and was told the dealer would do the upgrade but never did. Instead of rolling into the financing, this is how they do it and even wanted prepay on all the parts ($6,400)to accept a work order.

[thewarden]

Originally Posted by latarheel

Be thankful, I just got my quote to upgrade a 2021 23FB International from AGM to Battleborn lithium for $10,600 installed by AS Chandler, AZ. Ironically, I asked for Lithium when I ordered in 2020 from JC and was told the dealer would do the upgrade but never did. Instead of rolling into the financing, this is how they do it and even wanted prepay on all the parts ($6,400)to accept a work order.

For 2 batteries and possibly an upgraded converter/charger!? Wow.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by latarheel

Be thankful, I just got my quote to upgrade a 2021 23FB International from AGM to Battleborn lithium for $10,600 installed by AS Chandler, AZ. Ironically, I asked for Lithium when I ordered in 2020 from JC and was told the dealer would do the upgrade but never did. Instead of rolling into the financing, this is how they do it and even wanted prepay on all the parts ($6,400)to accept a work order.

Hi

I'd love to see a list of the parts and the prices they think are "normal"......

A price like that is simply nonsense. Find somebody else to do the work. Even if you have to drive a ways, the money you save will pay for a *lot* of vacation.

Bob

[ROBERT CROSS]

[QUOTE=Hermes;2536719]Lithium batteries can freeze in very cold temperatures, so the heated version use its own power to heat itself.

BB's don't 'freeze'.

The batt's in the link would be a hard install in an airstream... not applicable.

The heated version of the battle born battery requires an external heat source

We have the no heat version of the BB.

"Battle Born Batteries protect themselves from charging in cold temperatures and won't accept a charge once the internal cell temperature drops to 24°F. At this point they will continue to discharge even down to -4°F. At this temperature we recommend no longer pulling power to avoid damaging the batteries."

Bob
🇺🇸

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by ROC

Where do you find a case of Blue Moon for 16.99?

My poof it's a 12 pack....It's the Honey Brown in bottles that's getting scarce... whoa is me.

Bob
🇺🇸

[John Spilker]

I went ahead and purchased the batteries. My brother-in-law, an electrician helped me install them. We added a kill switch, battery warmer switch and Victron shunt. All totaled, it took about three hours to do the work. The cost with shunt and heated batteries was about $2,400. Info from FredWilma was more than helpful.

The batteries fit perfectly into the box. The trailer came with the lithium-ready inverter. I contacted WFCO tech support to make sure it was compatible. The company was helpful and all I had to do was flip a switch. I'm not sure why Airstream included this inverter, but naturally I was thankful it was there. One less thing to modify.

We've only done one overnight test and the results were what I expected. We've camped a few times in Eastern Washington state parks but had hookups. The real test will come next year.

If the batteries continue to work as expected, I will be a very happy camper. I wasn't pleased with little more than one day of power with the conventional batteries. We'll add solar one of these days, possibly before we travel to Southern California and Nevada.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by John Spilker

I went ahead and purchased the batteries. My brother-in-law, an electrician helped me install them. We added a kill switch, battery warmer switch and Victron shunt. All totaled, it took about three hours to do the work. The cost with shunt and heated batteries was about $2,400. Info from FredWilma was more than helpful.

The batteries fit perfectly into the box. The trailer came with the lithium-ready inverter. I contacted WFCO tech support to make sure it was compatible. The company was helpful and all I had to do was flip a switch. I'm not sure why Airstream included this inverter, but naturally I was thankful it was there. One less thing to modify.

We've only done one overnight test and the results were what I expected. We've camped a few times in Eastern Washington state parks but had hookups. The real test will come next year.

If the batteries continue to work as expected, I will be a very happy camper. I wasn't pleased with little more than one day of power with the conventional batteries. We'll add solar one of these days, possibly before we travel to Southern California and Nevada.

Hi

I believe you are talking about a converter rather than an inverter ....

Inverter turns 12V battery power into 120V AC to run the TV off grid.

Converter / Charger turns 120V shore power into 12V to charge the batteries.

AS started putting lithium compatible converters in a while ago. Just how long and on which models is very much a "that depends" sort of thing. My guess is that the option costs them about $5. It (obviously) makes lithium upgrades easier .


Bob

[John Spilker]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

I believe you are talking about a converter rather than an inverter ....

Inverter turns 12V battery power into 120V AC to run the TV off grid.

Converter / Charger turns 120V shore power into 12V to charge the batteries.

AS started putting lithium compatible converters in a while ago. Just how long and on which models is very much a "that depends" sort of thing. My guess is that the option costs them about $5. It (obviously) makes lithium upgrades easier .


Bob

Yes you are correct about the converter. I should have added that I purchased Battle Born batteries.

[carl2591]

wow a lot of comments on batteries.. bet they will just have it done and fork out the 4K on a 2000 dollar deal. don't see the need for heated batteries.. the BMS will prevent charging below 32 degrees, that is the battery pack temp not the outdoor air temp.. if the batteries are in the coach they will most likely never get that cold unless in storage.. still the BMS will take care of them or just shut off the breaker from panels.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by carl2591

wow a lot of comments on batteries.. bet they will just have it done and fork out the 4K on a 2000 dollar deal. don't see the need for heated batteries.. the BMS will prevent charging below 32 degrees, that is the battery pack temp not the outdoor air temp.. if the batteries are in the coach they will most likely never get that cold unless in storage.. still the BMS will take care of them or just shut off the breaker from panels.

Hi

The stock install for the "$4,000 upgrade" is to put them in the battery box. If you always have your trailer in storage by now and it only comes out in May, then even there heated may not do much for you. If you live up north and keep camping into December, it could be handy.

Bob

[nryn]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi



The stock install for the "$4,000 upgrade" is to put them in the battery box. If you always have your trailer in storage by now and it only comes out in May, then even there heated may not do much for you. If you live up north and keep camping into December, it could be handy.



Bob

Battleborn told me they add about 10º to the temperature range for safe charging. That provides a good enough margin for me. Any colder than that and I’ll either be on electric or not out at all.

[SNR Brown]

Fred, this sounds a lot less intimidating than some make it. Where’d you get the wiring diagram or install details? Thanks!

[foobar]

There are a number of "facts" being tossed around here that are not exactly right.

Lithium batteries do not "freeze" at the low temperatures we have here in the lower 48 states. What happens is that LiFePO4 batteries can be damaged if they are charged when temperatures are low.

The battery manufacturer datasheet is the gospel here and spec's vary between manufacturers due to the varying battery construction (different electrodes, different formulations for the electrolyte, etc).

Most batteries will have a spec that says not to charge the batteries below some temperature threshold that is somewhere between 25F and 35F.

Discharge is usually safe for most batteries down to 0F give or take (read datasheet ladies and gents ).

As for direct connection between tow vehicle and the LiFePO4 system in the trailer? It's highly unlikely to damage the alternator. It's much more likely to damage your Lithium batteries over a longer period of time. The reason is that the voltage drop through the 7 pin connector and wiring will leave you with a voltage at the battery bank well below the desired charging level for lithium. This can (and does) damage the lithium batteries. You can also have charge flow backwards through the 7 pin connector and overcharge your flooded lead acid battery when you leave the 7 pin connector attached and the tow vehicle is not running. A full voltage level for lithium is much higher than the "battery full" voltage for flooded batteries.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by foobar

There are a number of "facts" being tossed around here that are not exactly right.



Lithium batteries do not "freeze" at the low temperatures we have here in the lower 48 states. What happens is that LiFePO4 batteries can be damaged if they are charged when temperatures are low.



The battery manufacturer datasheet is the gospel here and spec's vary between manufacturers due to the varying battery construction (different electrodes, different formulations for the electrolyte, etc).



Most batteries will have a spec that says not to charge the batteries below some temperature threshold that is somewhere between 25F and 35F.



Discharge is usually safe for most batteries down to 0F give or take (read datasheet ladies and gents [emoji38]).



As for direct connection between tow vehicle and the LiFePO4 system in the trailer? It's highly unlikely to damage the alternator. It's much more likely to damage your Lithium batteries over a longer period of time. The reason is that the voltage drop through the 7 pin connector and wiring will leave you with a voltage at the battery bank well below the desired charging level for lithium. This can (and does) damage the lithium batteries. You can also have charge flow backwards through the 7 pin connector and overcharge your flooded lead acid battery when you leave the 7 pin connector attached and the tow vehicle is not running. A full voltage level for lithium is much higher than the "battery full" voltage for flooded batteries.

Forgot to mention that this voltage mismatch between lead acid and lithium systems is why you need a DC-DC converter as these ensure that you isolate the 12v lead acid system from the 14v lithium system (ensuring charge flow is from the tow vehicle to the trailer only) and boost the 12v system voltage to the 14v+ that is needed to charge lithium properly. They will also handle the required lithium charging profile that a direct connection to an alternator will not provide.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by foobar

There are a number of "facts" being tossed around here that are not exactly right.

Lithium batteries do not "freeze" at the low temperatures we have here in the lower 48 states. What happens is that LiFePO4 batteries can be damaged if they are charged when temperatures are low.

The battery manufacturer datasheet is the gospel here and spec's vary between manufacturers due to the varying battery construction (different electrodes, different formulations for the electrolyte, etc).

Most batteries will have a spec that says not to charge the batteries below some temperature threshold that is somewhere between 25F and 35F.

Discharge is usually safe for most batteries down to 0F give or take (read datasheet ladies and gents ).

As for direct connection between tow vehicle and the LiFePO4 system in the trailer? It's highly unlikely to damage the alternator. It's much more likely to damage your Lithium batteries over a longer period of time. The reason is that the voltage drop through the 7 pin connector and wiring will leave you with a voltage at the battery bank well below the desired charging level for lithium. This can (and does) damage the lithium batteries. You can also have charge flow backwards through the 7 pin connector and overcharge your flooded lead acid battery when you leave the 7 pin connector attached and the tow vehicle is not running. A full voltage level for lithium is much higher than the "battery full" voltage for flooded batteries.

Hi

"Stop charging" is indeed different than "stop discharging". Both are different than "damage in storage".

Testing parts costs money. Setting up fancy environmental test chambers takes time. You see specs on a lot of things that stop at some (often in degrees C) arbitrary point. Does the part stop working there or did they just stop the test? It's never clear. What is clear is that a guarantee of performance stops at whatever temperature is listed.

What is the damage point on fully charged LiFePO4 batteries? There (oddly enough) isn't a lot of data. It's most certainly below the -20C number you see for performance. It may be below -45C (there are papers supporting this).

Apparently there isn't much of a market for storing these batteries in very cold climates. With no market, no money for testing and no reason to change the spec sheets.

So, we're left with the flip side of this. Folks who just might live where it's very cold *and* who leave them out. So far there have been no reports of folks doing that *and* nuking their LiFePO4 batteries.

Bob

[Gene]

Electric cars and hybrid cars have lithium ion batteries too and I have not heard of problems with charging. I know many are charged in a garage and many garages are heated and the car itself may be heated and chargers along the road may be used when it has warmed up, but what about the rest of the time? Maybe we are talking about different types of these batteries. And don’t batteries discharge slower when cold than when warm, though that may be only true for certain types of batteries?

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Gene

Electric cars and hybrid cars have lithium ion batteries too and I have not heard of problems with charging. I know many are charged in a garage and many garages are heated and the car itself may be heated and chargers along the road may be used when it has warmed up, but what about the rest of the time? Maybe we are talking about different types of these batteries. And don’t batteries discharge slower when cold than when warm, though that may be only true for certain types of batteries?

Hi

All batteries loose capacity at cold temperatures. Your 100AH at 70F will be something different at 0F. Maybe it's 80AH, maybe it's 60AH. It depends on the exact chemistry used in the battery.

The charging setups in cars most certainly cut out when the batteries go below some magic temperature. Is that 25F? maybe .... I'd bet they use heater pads to warm them up when it's cold out. There's lots of power going into the beast already....

I'd also bet that running a Tesla in Alaska in the winter ( and -60F) is on the "don't do this" list. Even in Alaska, it's not always that cold so maybe you just run out to the store after a bit of a wait. That would be my choice, regardless of what vehicle we're talking about

What is for sure is that the car sitting out in the driveway in Fairbanks or Delta Junction ( where Tesla has a test facility) does see those temperatures. So far no reports of them self destructing. They most certainly do have Tesla's ( and other EV's ) up in Alaska.

Bob