TAC - Take The High Road

[norsea]

Originally Posted by 62overlander

That is it exactly. Open to anyone that wants to attend or participate.

I do see that many like the free aspect of this club. Do be warned that in the future we may need some donations to cover some operating expenses. No one will be required to pay anything though, and this will be purely voluntary and on a donation basis. It will also be "in the future"

For now, you can contribute by hosting a gathering somewhere in your area...

There is a reason why organizations, like clubs, incorporate.

Primarily incorporation protects ANYONE who puts something of value, for any reason, into the organization. Donations, dues, whatever. It all has a monetary value. Any time money is put into an organization the people who provide the money are, in the eyes of the law, liable for the things the organization does.

In business parlance, this means that anyone who has their own business, a sole proprietorship, is responsible for any and all things that the entity (organization/business) does. This also means that there is no legal definition separating the person from the function. Incorporation provides a legal basis for keeping an organization/business separate from personal assets.

What this really means is a persons personal belongings can be taken to satisfy the debts of the organization/business if the business is not otherwise protected by law.

Anyone who donates money, or anything else, to TAC is liable for any/all debts that TAC takes on. This includes things that no one ever wants to talk about - law suits.

Incorporation provides protection to the people who operate the organization/business as well as those who are members. Traditionally members pay dues either in the form of money, time/labor and/or donations.

I hope TAC members here realizes what they are getting into should they choose to donate ANYTHING to any organization that has no protection for the members personal assets in the eyes of the law.

Until TAC is incorporated everyone is at risk; especially those who are driving the effort.

Please take this in the manner it is intended which is to provide information that people can now absorb and use to do their own research and come to their own conclusion(s).

Please do not take my word for this. And do not take the word of anyone stating otherwise.

Look up the laws in your state; they will vary for every state but are similar enough that they are essentially the same throughout the county. They definitely are uniform at the federal level.

This is one more reason why it is important to research states in which to incorporate; some are better than others.

Jim

[Lothlorian]

If I have a party at my house and somebody falls down the stairs I am at risk. If a little kid comes into my yard and sticks a fork into the outside electical outlet I am at risk. Why am I at risk? Well they may have a good lawyer and I may not. I found out a long time ago waivers in some courts don't mean anything and neither does the law in writing if the other person has a good lawyer. The law is the law but a good lawyer that is against you can win in his favor. Yes this is true. I found that out the hard way. Law in the books can be disregarded and I was told I might be right so take it to court. Yeah it may take five years to win and you might win but the cost may bankrupt you in the process. That is what I was told by that lawyer and my lawyer said he was right. I was told I had a good case, but that lawyer could tie it up for five years. Do I bankrupt my family, possibly lose everything to prove the law. You must be kidding.

As far as I am concern the law in this land is sacred, but it does not mean much if the other person has a good lawyer and has the finance. They cover their own. David and Goliath. Goliath usually wins.

Brian

Ga-2

[firedog]

How can one sue a non - profit organization? It has no money and makes no money..

[norsea]

Originally Posted by firedog

How can one sue a non - profit organization? It has no money and makes no money..

I think you need to do more research.

There is nothing that prevents a not for profit corporation from making a profit. If a club could not make a profit it would not be able to have money in the bank at the end of the year.

Non-profit does NOT mean that revenue cannot be generated and retained in a bank account, CD's or other instruments used for investment.

This is something that most people do not understand; hence my opening line.

Jim

[Frank's Trailer Works]

once again the last two posts point out a gigantic issue in our society... lack of personal responsibility. There use to a time, a man took responsibility for himself and his actions. Now everyone is looking to blame someone else and collect money in return. News folks: only the lawyers make the money. The irresponsible are still not held accountable for what they have done.

The infamous liability insurance everyone talks about. Well, it covers just the officers at a rally. Not the idiot acting irresponsibly or person that was kind enough to organize things. Just the officers in attendance.

We are keeping this simple for now. Everyone is taking care of themselves.

And to answer Carols question about costs... Some one paid for the domain name, someone paid for the web hosting, all of that has a cost. It came out of someones pocket and in the future everyone should contribute to things coming out of pocket. There really is no free ride. Next time nature calls, think about the fact that you must pay for the water either from the pipe or to pump it out of the ground. When you finish you pay for the paper. Eventually you pay to have your tank pumped or your city tax pays to treat it... Even a simple natural act has a cost.

[Lothlorian]

The possiblities. A huge TAC BBQ and chili cook off with good drink and music. Come one come all leave your money at the door. It is for a good cause.

Now I just have to convince my wife to hold one of these on my property in So. Il. Oh yeah my property butts up to a winery. YYYOOOOWWWZZZAAA! the possibilities

Brian

Ga-2

[wheel interested]

And to answer Carols question about costs... Some one paid for the domain name, someone paid for the web hosting, all of that has a cost.

There's a TAC web site? I thought we were just here. Andy offers free club hosting. We should take advantage of it. And I do regularly contribute to Air Forums for a great value, imo.

I think we need more details of how much the club will cost in advance of joining. That way there are no surprises. I am surprised. It was the spontaiety and freeness that was immediately attractive to possibly many who signed on. Perhaps I am unique in that ascertation and spirit of abandonment. It felt like a movement rather than than a traditionally established club.

[dwightdi]

The policy that WBCCI has covers officers, organizers or any person acting at the request of the organizers. I do not have a copy of the Good Sam insurance policy but it should be the same. The norsea's point is correct. The courts have held that the owners of the club are those people who organized it or contributed materially to it creation. Those owners have complete liability, down to their last dollar, for anything found in court against the club. Those who do not organize but only participate are not owners and have no liability. These members are free to sue the club and its organizers for any damages that occur during any club function. Incorporation is the only way to limit liability. Then only the club goes broke.

[Air Apparent]

I believe that the lack of liability protection will limit the growth of TAC sponsored activities. I am not willing to risk my personal assets to organize TAC activities. I will participate and contribute my fair share as a TAC member but not in a leadership role if my personal assets are at stake.

There are too many lawsuit crazy people in this world and it only take one to materially affect your life.

Without liability protection for the organizers, TAC activities will be the same as Airforum activities. Maybe that is the plan.

If that is the plan, that is ok if eveyone understands the risk they are taking.

[Lothlorian]

Good Sam insurance policy, Has anybody had to use this insurance because of an accident or irresponsible behavior?



Brian
GA-2

[Gene]

Taking the high road should include avoiding lawyer bashing.

Some points to consider. There different types of insurance. The types sometimes have different names in different places. One type covers the officers and directors of a club. Another type covers events sponsored by a club. Your homeowner's policy may cover something on your land, but you'd have to read your policy and understand it; otherwise, assume it doesn't.

You are always liable for what you do (there are exceptions such as Good Samaritan laws, but they are not important here). No insurance will cover you for intentional acts (slugging someone for example). Incorporation will protect you from what other members do, but not from what you do. Insurance can protect you from negligence, but defining that and what "intentional" means is difficult. These are all general statements. If the law were simple it wouldn't take 3 years of law school and lots of studying for the bar exam. There are bad and good lawyers and in my experience most are of good character. I detest the bad ones. There are bad bus drivers, doctors, Forum members and people in general, but most are pretty good. The bad ones get most of the notice.

In a partnership, all the partners are equally liable. An unincorporated association was traditionally seen as a partnership, but laws in many states have changed that and treated liability like a corporation. In those states, the members are not liable for the acts of the members. It looks like TAC is an unincorporated association so far as I can see, but it depends on the state of residency—in this case it appears to be NY. You do not need any document to have such an association under the model law, just the intent to form one and the acts that evidence it. I believe in recent years the IRS permits nonprofit status for an unincorporated association, but you have to apply for it and wait, sometimes quite a long time. I'm unsure TAC could qualify as a 501(c)(3)—educational, religious or charity. There are other nonprofit designations, but donations to them are not tax exempt, though income would be. When and if TAC collects money, that becomes important, but one way to avoid taxes is to spend everything you collect.

Gene

[Lothlorian]

Gene:

You are probably right about lawyer bashing on the High Road. I will bite my lip and not say another word about them. I appreciate you help people solve problems with legal matters.

Brian

[Mikethefixit]

Ok this is TAC, NOT WBCCI. Each of us are responsible for our own liability insurance. I am personally am insurance POOR. I wouldnt think of sueing the person that suggested we come to the Metro-Det Rally last yr. even though I did trip over and fall on a teather or cord or something. Now whos fault was that? .It was mine cause this dumb ass didnt watch where I was goin. If you cant be responsible for yourself then U BEST STAY HOME.

[dwightdi]

If you could depend on everyone else to take responsibility for himself, that would be great. Unfortunately, you can not. That is why the club would need to buy insurance. Otherwise the person injured could sue you, as the organizer, personally. It is the same reason that you buy personal liability insurance for your car. It is unfortunate that the car insurance does not cover you as an organizer of an activity.

[dufferin]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

...It felt like a movement rather than than a traditionally established club.

Despite that I like the idea of the "movement", and I felt the same without naming it actually, it sounds to me that a movement canot be liable. Without any legal existence.
If I talk to my friends and we then decide that we get together anywhere, and I did came with the idea of that get together am I liable? Even if it is at my own place? Am I liable to invite friends to do an activity?

Starting with the idea that a legal structure should be created to avoid legal trouble will put that structure under the legal scope and there you go.

I have a little bit of law background in Europe and I know principle may not apply here.

[ScrapIrony-2]

I guess it's a good thing that our lil' ol' rally here in Quartzsite isn't actually a rally, but a mutually beneficial gathering...my understanding is that the "rally insurance" is to cover any damages that occur to rented properties and/or facilities...personal liability would fall to the individual, as long as it's not an 'organized' gathering...sometimes I'm so organized that I don't know what I'm gonna have for lunch YESTERDAY!!!

[nick6930]

Let me first apologize to everyone for sending this topic off track concerning, my opinion, that dues may be necessary for a NPLLC. This has nothing to do with this topic and should be moved to its own topic.

Originally Posted by wheel interested

I think we need more details of how much the club will cost in advance of joining. That way there are no surprises. I am surprised. It was the spontaiety and freeness that was immediately attractive to possibly many who signed on. Perhaps I am unique in that ascertation and spirit of abandonment. It felt like a movement rather than than a traditionally established club.

The idea of stating how much a non existent club would cost prior to joining is ludicrous. The club was set up free, no commitment to pay anything. However, once things were established we all would expect to pay something.

I joined and have pledge my support both financially and to volunteer for a "traditionally established club." The best of what the WBCCI offered without the IBT issues.

[WineStream]

Since we're talking policy; I have an idea for disciplinary procedures. If anyone has a grievance with anyone else, they shall mutually call each other an @$$hole in the presence of the others nearby and each shall briefly dismiss to fetch the next beer (water, pop, wine, whatever). Both people shall fetch said drink and return to the fire and a new conversation shall have already been started by those still at the fire.

As for insurance, yeah, it's a real need I suppose. BUT, as I recall, attending the BB is not free; and neither should any TAC rally be. Whomever organizes the rally/gathering needs to investigate the need ahead of time and accordingly amortize the cost of a policy into the cost for the attendees. Problem solved.

Where'd my wine glass go?

-Jason

[wheel interested]

I signed up for fun. I guess I didn't realize how serious you all were taking this. I doubt I will be attending a rally so I guess I jumped the gun committing to future costs unspecified. I was being supportive and thought it was cool to see the numbers build. Next time I will read the fine print. Oh that's right there wasn't any. That comes after.

I have been going to and have planned some forum rallies for years and we have always paid our own expenses and kicked in with unsolicited extras without a collection. So, no, not in the least was it obvious to me nor do I find it ludicrous to have expected any difference from my past experiences.

You will all have to excuse me for the misunderstanding. But I guess I unjoin for the time being. Can I still get a refund? M-2 now available.

[Gene]

I know it got off track and my posts were to correct some misconceptions. Threads wander especially when the original topic is exhausted as I think it was.

I agree with Nick in so far as the thought that once the club gets more established, the issue of money collected in some way will come up for costs of maintaining it—that can be pretty small—and the dreaded insurance issue is bound to keep coming up. Informing some friends you will be at a place on specific days may be the way out of this bind as Mike (Scrapirony 2) says.

But if you leave out that cord that Roger tripped over, and someone's aged grandmother with cataracts trips over it and breaks her osteoporatic hip, her grandson may want to protect her and sue you. At CG with hookups there are cords and hoses and sewer lines all over the place. Interesting case and quite appropriate for a law school exam question in 2nd semester* torts. I sure don't know the answer and expect there are several answers.

And to Carol, it is a movement and is trying not to be a traditionally established club. It can be a club or a group and be different as hard as that may be to do. Take a chance and re-join and don't let lawyers and pseudolawyers** scare you off. "All journeys have secret destinations of which the traveler is unaware."

Gene

*Do they still have semesters?

**Since I've been retired for 10 years, I probably qualify.***

***I sure do love footnotes.