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Old 07-07-2015, 11:58 AM   #1191
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Lauren at Colonial said scales were about 26 miles away towards the NorthWest.
Worth the trip and 'exercise'...
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Old 07-07-2015, 04:16 PM   #1192
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Lauren at Colonial said scales were about 26 miles away towards the NorthWest.

Thanks Switz - will recheck the CAT app...
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:08 PM   #1193
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Haven't found the article in google search yet...using 50% FALR as search criteria.

All due respect - I'm more inclined to follow manufacturer's recommendations but I'd be interested in reading the article.

RV Lifestyle, Hitch Hints, Vol 44, No. 1.
RV Buyers Guide

If the manufacturer was concerned over your safety, then the entire process of so called ratings would not only apply to every vehicle sold, but account for differences in types of trailers, etc. They do not. Questions unasked, much less answered, are glaring in a review of J2807. Same for how to hitch. Low FALR favors high profit, low production cost vehicles such as pickups. It's what the OEMs can get away with.

Cover the range of what is possible. Test.

And it may be that some settings are not possible without a better hitch receiver. Standards on these are not what the should be, either.

Since you apparently do not find the 1k bars acceptable, start from scratch, as it were.
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Old 07-07-2015, 08:27 PM   #1194
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If the manufacturer was concerned over your safety, then the entire process of so called ratings would not only apply to every vehicle sold, but account for differences in types of trailers, etc. They do not.

...snip...

Cover the range of what is possible. Test.

...snip...

Since you apparently do not find the 1k bars acceptable, start from scratch, as it were.

Thanks, Slowmover. This is for the 3 snipped parts above - you know way more about this than I do. I think you're also a professional trucker, yes? Semi-novice thoughts:

There are multiple pages of text and tables in the GM manuals (for the truck, for the diesel supplement, for the towing guide) that provide various ranges of applications that help users configure their setup. The tow ratings change based on weights, type of hitch used, etc. So from my admittedly unprofessional opinion, it looked to me like they absolutely did account for differences in types of trailers....it wasn't like - you can tow the Space Shuttle with this truck no questions asked... 😃

Definitely plan on testing out a range of approaches. Thanks.

The original choice of 1000# bars was influenced by Inland Andy and others who said too much on the bars will pop rivets out of the trailer. Have never had that problem with these bars. The disappointment with the 1000# bars was the inability to restore 100% to the front axle on my first trip to the scales a couple years ago. Had to go back and triple check the manual and found 50% was the recommendation for my setup. Now my concern is whether it was installed correctly in the first place (the curbside WD bar really doesn't seem to move much weight at all - seems almost no tension on it even at 6" on the jack though on street side at 4" it's noticeably tougher to dial in more WD - and - the curbside grease zerk seems to ooze back out after filling it, not so street side).

So having it torn down and put back on with the 1400# bars Sean suggested seems like a really good idea.

I'll play with the ranges from 50-100% and see what I can see.

I do appreciate your input - and I trust the manuals too. 😃
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Old 07-07-2015, 10:36 PM   #1195
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Anyone can play with a set of calcs that make a formula. Junior engineer stuff.

Commercial operators of one tons (ranchers, contractors too) take these up to the limits which are tire/wheel/axle. I spent quite a while running a 9000-lb gooseneck trailer with loads that had the rig grossing 30k. 10k past GCWR. For 300k miles. Roads I wouldn't want to take my own down. Oilfield. On time or else.

And the way we hauled our trailer type in the 60s and 70s was with a custom built hitch receiver. Note Andys comments about that item needing reinforcement. It may be more your problem than the bars. The SAE standard for a receiver is one quarter of the forces WD can exert. A couple of diagonals may be all it needs.

Factory standard is handy. Not a limit. Factory guidelines appear to be a different problem, as standard receivers can't do the job. Etc. Its a starting point. And that's all it is.

As to big trucks, when I'm having a crane or a big forklift load a flatbed, yes, inches matter. Port or starboard a couple of inches and the thing is just wrong to drive on today's Interstate. Fore & aft and the tires are overloaded (even at nearly 9000-lbs each. And I don't run full pressure on tractor). Again, though different, Andys point about inches matter.

At the end it's the wheel loads. The way the trailer follows the TV into a turn at speed is my gauge. My trailer can't drift the way Andy says an Airstream can. And while my version of a one ton is a sports car compared to most, it is no Mercedes SUV.

The TV tire pressures after a WD setting that seems best is the end of a road of details.

WD settings. Then TV tire pressure experiments to find the lower end of the range. And working upwards somewhat.

Whatever you choose to take on will be appreciated by others. It certainly is by me.
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Old 07-07-2015, 10:45 PM   #1196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
50% FALR has been effectively rebutted. Hitch Hints, in RV Lifestyle, November 2014.
This opinion also was expressed (and addressed) in a previous thread

I believe Andy Thomson has mis-interpreted the SAE J2807 Recommended Practice.
SAE J2807 does not (and, is not intended to) specify how the user of a TV/TT combo should adjust the WD bars.

The purpose of SAE J2807 is stated as:
This document defines procedures and requirements to determine Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) and calculate corresponding Trailer Weight Rating (TWR) for any tow-vehicle. These procedures will establish consistent rating requirements and processes so end users (customers) can reasonably compare similar class models in terms of trailering ability.

Yes, SAE J2807 does specify a 50% Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) for some of the tow vehicle comparison tests.
But, they also specify 0% FALR for some tests and 100% FALR for some tests.
There is nothing in SAE J2807 which specifies that a WDH should be adjusted to 50% by the TV operator.
In fact, there is nothing in SAE J2807 which specifies anything the end user should or should not do.

If Andy Thomson wants to take someone to task for abandoning the "equal squat" approach to WDH adjustment (I assume that's what Andy means by "the industry spec of the last 50 years"), he should be directing his criticism at Ford, GMC/Chverolet, Toyota, Progress Mfg (Equal-i-zer), Cequent Group (Reese/DrawTite), et. al.)
They are the ones who now are telling customers not to use the "equal squat" approach.

Andy's article, "Setting Your Torsion Bars", seems to be a blanket indictment of SAE's attempt to produce a recommended practice for comparison testing of tow vehicles.
There always will be some people who will be opposed to some or all of any recommended practice.
It never will be possible to get unanimous agreement as to requirements for comparison testing of tow vehicle performance.

IMO, expecting TV manufacturers to test their vehicles at "equal squat" is unrealistic.
IMO, expecting manufacturers of receivers and hitches to provide products which minimize rear overhang for a variety of TVs is unrealistic.
IMO, expecting all users to adjust their WDH for maximum rearward angle of the ball mount is unrealistic.

Andy says that "SAE has tried to take on something that should not be their job".
He also says that what SAE is trying to do should be the job of the RV dealer.
Let's be realistic -- how are RV dealers ever going to get together to agree on a recommended practice for comparison of TV towing performance???
The RV dealers would produce nothing. SAE has produced something.

IMO, Andy's article disproves nothing.
Fortunately, in the end, Andy recommends experimentation to find what works best for a given combination. That, I agree with.

Ron
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:56 AM   #1197
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The unofficial pp users guide...

Oh, it's an effective rebuttal.

Trusting a group of captive engineers who ignore valid criticisms to come up with a "standard" goes hand in hand with ignoring the majority of vehicles not rated for any substantial weight simply because they aren't tested. Which is not at all the same as "not capable".

How convenient for profit to push customers in one direction by using selectively narrowed criteria.

And ignoring decades of customer and previous industry experience in so doing. It's fundamentally dishonest.

The hitch schematics provided by the OEMs in the 1960 s and 70s are proof otherwise, as are those of us old enough to have known better by experience.

If a better than current SAE spec hitch receiver is all it takes, then something is definitely fishy. The old built from scratch receivers were better by design.

You want to continue to misread or misrepresent Thomsons' article, Ron G, you're on your own. Are you interested in what is best, or in being an industry apologist? Providing clarity for newcomers around what the OEMs recommend is admirable, but calling it definitive is something else again.

It's misdirection to state that within a subset of vehicles that different amounts of WD force apply. It does not take into account different trailers or the forces acting on them.

The ONLY thing one could say about those recommendations is that they are a starting point. And only for one trailer type. But such discussion is not part of recommendations. What's left unsaid is also what's left untested. Quite handy, isn't it?

And one could go thru your specific objections as well. What's done in other industries or even in the auto industry itself means there would be no groundbreaking to implement sensible changes. Hell, a few hundred dollars worth of changes on conventional trailers would radically improve their aero and road holding capabilities. "Why" is the more important question as to what remedies are available.

Experimenting with what works best should be the advice given once a basic setup is achieved. On any sensible combination. But one will search long and hard for it.
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Old 07-08-2015, 02:12 PM   #1198
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Originally Posted by slowmover View Post

The TV tire pressures after a WD setting that seems best is the end of a road of details.

me.

Can more be said about what is meant by this?
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Old 07-11-2015, 09:03 AM   #1199
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Spreading TW is one thing. Being certain that no wheel/tire/axle load is exceeded is another.

One may formulaically apply WD per scale readings. But it would not be impossible that one tire on a trailer axle were closer to limits than the other. This could be a problem. If one cannot load the trailer in such a way that reduces that load on that wheel and a true heavy duty tire was already installed, it might be necessary to change WD settings to accommodate the problem.

Unlikely though this may be the point remains that measuring the forces at the ground is the last piece of information in setting the mechanical baseline of the combined rig.

Experimentation ought to begin AFTER this assurance is met.
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Old 07-11-2015, 10:51 AM   #1200
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Reading Slow's post above (the section mentioning uneven lateral load, brought a question to my mind. Can the ProPride's WD jacks be used to adjust the lateral load? For instance, if the right hand jack is tensioned (more turns, higher) more than the left, will that transfer load from the right side tires to the left side tires?

My initial idea (guess) is yes it can, but I am curious what effect it will have on the system as a whole if one does that.

Ken
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Old 07-11-2015, 05:18 PM   #1201
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You'd throw off the TV.

There will always likely be at least one of four tires on a trailer heavier than others. Even with most weight concious (classic) design of rear bath and twins with appliances concentrated over axles. Move the cast iron cookware around, but it won't be perfect. Checking individual tire loads is to minimize this across axle effect as much as possible is one of those last mechanical baseline numbers to which to attend.
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:16 PM   #1202
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PP Jack noise / failure?

Anyone heard of PP jack failures? One of my jacks has got more and more difficult to apply WD. It has always been a big more noisy / stiff than the one on the other side but I just ignored it. Well today it was so hard to apply WD that my electric drill would no longer move it. I had to wind it by hand with a wrench. The other side sailed up with the drill.

I have been conversing with Sean, he advised the following (for anyone else that has trouble): -

Check that the dimples on the back of the jack tube are lined up with the groove (they were).
Pop the silver jack top cover off and see if there is sufficient grease (there was).
Apply some oil to the rod, there is a hole in the rear of the jack tube or apply from the top (shot enough oil in to have pools on the floor).

Jack appears to be on its last legs. This is a bit worrisome since I'll be hitting the road in a few weeks for a 2000 miles round trip to the south.

I have asked Sean for a replacement. Lets see what he does in response.

Anyone else seen this or have any suggestions?
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:26 PM   #1203
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Totally wild guess here and I don't pretend to know what's really going on....

When you have the cover off, see if the roll pin has broken. It can if you tighten with an electric drill (ask me how I know &#128563. If it did, you might have pieces of it stuck in a gear which could explain the tough movement.
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:28 PM   #1204
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I have one the felt like it might be tightening up. I'll try the things you mentioned it before I use it next. I have always tightened mine with The crank handle Airstream furnishes to lower the stabilizer feet.

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