New Driveway - Good News Bad News

[PKI]

You can grind away concrete to create clearance. You can cut, remove and replace. There are gutter bridges available that look good and are easily removable. There are solutions to your problem.

There are grading engineers that can calculate the required grade prior to pouring concrete. You hired the wrong contractor. Negotiate a closing price with a discount for your displeasure and pay him off. Use the boards to bridge the gutter until you save enough money to pay an engineer to design a correction. Correct the problem so your drive works like you intended it to work.

Enjoy your learning experience. Pat

[PharmGeek]

Met with the contractor. He admitted that he was pretty rushed that day. What we discussed was that he slipped up by increasing the grade...they had rain all the week before, and I think I just did not drive it home ENOUGH it seems that if the grade increased...I would have an issue....reading between the lines...I think he was saving some time and money on a job that he gave a very low bid on (I only got one bid on the job so...4,700 was our agreement)...talking to my other friend, he says he thinks he did not take grading into account on the price, and then when on site, got a bit hasty and made a last minute decision thinking he would fill up more concrete on the other side as a work around....either way, he was very nice about discussing with me an agreeable solution.

Some bit of bad news, is that the fix from the handwritten photo is more or less a no go...that did not take into account the hitch and WD bars and their low clearance...and the added incline there seems to us a risk for just adding yet another clearance problem.

so...another solution we then discussed was to go back and "do it like we intended"....which was taking out 4 entire sections he put in...which appears to be 35 feet (I didn't measure it precisely and bring that grade down and fill the gutter (btw, the city goes around for you and fills them in at your request with a little channel, so I feel better about all that)....this obviously is added cost...likely upwards of 2500 dollars easy...so I told him somewhat on the fly that perhaps I would kick him 1000 and he just re-do it as such..he agreed...although it will take a few days....im not entirely sure yet that I will go this route...obviously the premise of redoing it and being disappointed, is real...the driveway as is with the gutters filled with some wood...barely clears...this is not in its current state nice...its "workable" and requires a good deal of being careful, impossible to back it solo as such...and over time that close, and this or that shift...it could damage something.

Filling the gutter AND doing the lift kit at this point is a certainty as a solution....my contractor has agreed to re-do the work like 30-40 feet for 1000 more out of my pocket...I may approach him at this point and just agree to a lower price to offset the cost of the lift kit....I just really need to today read and reach a point where I can live with the lift kit option...but the more I think about it, the more I think I really would like it .....looking at my hitch today and seeing I have like 5.5 inches of clearance on flat ground from ground to the Propirde WD bars (give or take)....its like, wow...that clearance is absurdly low (my rig is level right now btw)...

So...im leaning toward a reduced price to offset the lift kit cost to me...fill the gutter per the city's spec...and all will be well....I need to get a quote fro the lift kit install and such, but im thinking if I ask him to simply take 600-800 off of the 4700 at this point and walk...he will gladly do that....gonna think on it...

[OTRA15]

Without a proper design and drawings -- you might just end up with another $1,000 spent for another SNAFU IMO. Can you trust the contractor "to make it right" given how much he messed up before?

I am going to suggest one last time that you get some 10' 2x10 planks and mock up exactly how much height disparity we are talking about.

If you don't do this mock up, you are asking for it IMO.





"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!"

Good luck,

Peter

[PharmGeek]

At the risk of solidifying my status as full blown dullard even further (ill risk it)...I honestly do not understand the point of doing the longer boards mock up at this point.

The shorter boards proved that merely filling the gutters (plus perhaps an inch higher as the boards set just above the gutter level) did result in clearance both for my trailer and hitch....adding longer boards now will certainly result in clearance the same or even more....

If I assume I am not going to change out or rip out the current concrete, and simply fill the gutter, do the lift...then is there a point to doing the longer boards?

Clearly IF I were to even consider redo-ing more or less 2/3 of the concrete as we discussed, I would need to sit down and REAALLLY think about how to plan and ENSURE the grade is RIGHT....

The lift plus simply gutter fill (if needed at all, I actually think the lift alone will result in clearance based on my mock up and measurements)...the contractor has agreed if needed to come back and redo a BUNCH...he likely will be eating 1500 dollars or more this route...I just cannot see him ripping it all out now if I can fix this with the lift....

OUtside of this particular clearance issue...I have dragged a couple times a bit...the hitch too....so clearly the lift even outside of this situation would have a benefit.....

[Ray Eklund]

I learned what Geek is experiencing on the back roads by becoming an Airstream Drag Queen. Once you begin to work on the geometry of Trailer and Tow Vehicle, it all makes sense what is being said by several posters.

Second time... you tweak it and figure it out.

PG is in this learning process. Those who exit the Interstates Highways to refuel... know which station entrance and exits are DRAG Queen potential. Already the gouges in the concrete are evidence that many do not understand that think before you proceed in unfamiliar situations.

I write differently, than I would have a general conversation. It is to the point and each person reads a sentence, differently. Those who criticize those who add information to a Thread just because of the words... are also missing the point. We are offering experience of similar situations and understand.

There are two skids on the back frame below the bumper. This is your first Drag Queen moment. The second is catching your bumper and either tearing it off, and you will only notice a slight 'tug' and you apply more gas peddle to... well, drag off what ever is in contact with the ground/asphalt/concrete.

At best you will catch the center lower bumper and bend it beyond repair. It will cost more than a lift kit or a stack of lumber.

If anyone is too sensitive to read and not confuse words with a personal emotion... just take a deep breath. This is not politics. This discussion is geometry, physics and being able to mentally understand that when towing, what goes up, the other parts go down.

...and yes. Some of us do know what we are doing. There are multiple ways to solve a problem. The easy way or a harder, more expensive way. Keep it simple. No two similar problems can be solved by one, and only one solution.

PharmGeek understands. Those who have been in these situations... also know what is going on in his mind. I and others catch plenty of criticisms from those who are a bit sensitive to good advice. It is meant well, and like a baseball pitcher... a curve ball is to get the batter's attention.

This photo is in Utah. The road was pretty much... level. Well... an example of the tow vehicle and trailer doing the Drag Queen rhumba... Nancy is watching that last one inch of clearance, very closely. PG's driveway... no comparison to this. These were... EASY.

I learned. PG will learn one way or the other. One Drag Queen on the Forum is enough. Learn from those who have experience. Amateurs are common place.

[PharmGeek]

haha...man, I like this...Ray...I hope you did not read my replies as something akin to being "overly sensitive"....I actually 100% understand how text communication when someone is trying to give "strong advice" can seem like bashing.

Communication be it verbal in person or in text can be a challenge...perceptions very challenging..I have now 12 years of clinical experience talking with all manner of patients on a daily basis, as well as 20 years now of retail experience...oh and I like BS'ing on the webs...that counts lol.

Anyway, not to get all meta here about tone, demeanor, perceptions...but...

That door swings both ways...this is just my honest opinion.

I am not as the kids say these days "butthurt" by mere criticisms or "strong advice" given, but there are moments where those advising take some extra rhetorical liberties and then if/when people react "at all", that can be perceived quite incorrectly as "overly sensitive".

Saying someone cannot read or some such, or other quips or metaphors meant perhaps in humor...like "ya can lead a horse to water.."...while perfectly clever...maybe even from the point of view of the person typing it "entirely apt"...but various constitute what is very very close to ad hominem.

People that come for help with open arms, humility, able to accept blame, listen..and yes read, arguably, deserve honesty and compassion.

You all have done a fine job here...I have no real qualms...but I feel your last post is attacking a straw man, by imagining anyone here as being "overly sensitive"...not the case...

While it is up to me or anyone not to "over-react" to constructive thoughts, people who speak, type, etc share responsibility about perceptions...door swings both ways.

Let me re-state that I really do not mind the joking, the ridicule, frankly even if someone name calls (been there, done that)...im here to get help..some of the tone and manner of discussion are quite secondary to me..although I have a few critiques from time to time if we are to meta-analyze such an issue.

To the issue of the driveway...ive been lurking hard now reading up on all the talk about lift...ray...did you get the lift?

The dragging I got to reading represents all manner of concern of damage over time...I got to wondering "well, ok..so I drag a "bit"...what does that mean"....

Anday fron inland in a post said if it bumps...a quarter panel popping or damaging is "almost a certainty"....bumpers ripping off? Hyperbole? Ive towed minimal mileage compared to some...im absurdly careful where I pull into...ive drug at a gas station going over a rain gutter type entrance...

Raising the trailer and all the stability discussion and concerns, I will not yet bring up here as it would require a whole other thread, although the outcomes of such a thread appear certain after I read a couple of them....

Thanks to you all...the mulling continues.

[PharmGeek]

whew....been calling all kinda truck/trailer repair places to get a quote...so far they all said no...called the local (1 year old now I think) airstream deailer in my area "Dixie RV"....and was told that they are not taking any new "outside" customers due to staffing issues at this time....Guess even though I have a local AS dealer/shop, I cannot get any work there (for now, was told they hope to do so "at some point as they build up").

waiting callback now from a couple shops that only took a message and agreed to call back.

Im assuming from all the reading that the cost of the kit is 200, and the labor is 3-4 hours tops....so I figure 800 tops for the work...unless there is something about my 2014 bunkhouse that is more complicated...hope not.

[Ray Eklund]

PharmGeek... my previous Post #105 was a retort to Post #91 from Shacksman.

Good luck. There are many Airstream owners following this Thread. The advice given by a number of owners, will be available to anyone in your situtation, for years.

To try and test future similar situations.

Trust me. Bumper drag is not a bit of imagination. But then again... experience is learned by discovering what is true, each owner at a time.

[crispyboy]

Two things:
1.) If the city allows modification of the gutter pan I would have the contractor sawcut and remove the gutter pan along with 20' of the concrete driveway. The new approach and driveway would start where the concrete meets the asphalt. This will allow the plane to start farther from the slope of the newly poured driveway and I believe this would allow a more gentle approach to the hill. Have the contractor put some wings on the approach of the driveway which may also help if approaching from another angle.

2. Lift kit. Many have successfully put a lift kits on their trailers so the biggest factor is finding someone to do the work. I don't have a lift kit but changed the worn out axles on my trailer to new ones that have a higher down angle. The factory down angle is 22.5 degrees. The new axles were 32.5 degrees down angle. Essentially I have a lift kit in a different way. The trailer was only raised by approximately 1 to 1.5 inches. This made it much easier to get into and out of fuel stations, etc. without dragging as before. The step in height of the trailer is always variable anyway since camp ground don't always have level sites. Don't overthink the lift kit - the center of gravity is not being raised that high and tow characteristics seem to be no different.

Good Luck!

[rmkrum]

I can attest to the fact that dropping an AS corner firmly on one of the little skids under the rear bumper WILL put a nice wrinkle in the rear of the Airstream corner panels. The only saving grace was that DW was the one urging haste during departure when it happened.

I suspect the only reason for those little skid loops is to provide a means to make sufficient noise to warn you to STOP before you cause damage, had you been paying attention.

A lift kit install is in my future--just to gain a little more clearance...and drag less stuff on the driveways of various places. It would NOT have saved us from wrinkles--that was a solid 8" drop into just 6" of ground clearance on that corner. (sigh--call it an 'experience mark', note the lack of water leaks, and drive on..)

[Ray Eklund]

Again... Post #105 photos.

Note that the front tire is just beginning to lift off the surface. If the bumper skids were not going to clear... we would have backed up a couple feet, pulled out two of our 2"x12"x14" blocks, set firmly in front of both, front and opposite side of the trailer... problem solved.

This is the great advantage of having a double axle Airstream when... exploring.

The first photo was the road beginning to go uphill, like PG's driveway.

No one in their right mind would drive through these ruts, without walking them and working out where to straddle the Airstream's tires and plumbing. Plan twice, do it once.

There was no backing up due to distance in mile or miles to find a turn around. A turn around was found, ahead several miles. We were at 9,000' elevation and somewhere on the Forum is a photo with a huge snowdrift blocking the road.

You have to do what some think impossible. We will remember this section of road and turn around at the wonderful campsite, further down the mountain.

[A W Warn]

Some light reading before your next attempt >
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs...6/1356-010.pdf

Another thing to consider: How easy will it be to mow along the sides of the driveway?
If the contractor digs down to lower the elevation of the driveway will there be a drop off or a rise to either side of the concrete. Will the grassed area have to be re-graded? Is he going to come back and take care of this after the forms are removed, or leave it for you to work out?

add edit:
The International Building Code has limited the allowed driveway slope to even less than is shown in the document referenced above (25%). If I remember correctly, slope is limited to 20% now, and I do not think that is sufficient for a 30' Airstream.

[PharmGeek]

After purchasing my AS in fall 2013, I went to canopener 2014 rally, and upon waiting to make my left hand turn into top sail..I got behind a fellow airstreamer....that low point skid metal area under bumper had like roller blade wheels attached....I though "uhhhh, wuuuut?!?!" ....there, that's what I need here, a roller skate wheel...problem solved (sarcasm).

[Bill M.]

If I were the contractor I would try hard to make it right in terms of grade and cost to rework. I would not want to pay for a lift kit on the trailer even if it is cheaper than the additional work.
Obviously the wheels take up clearance space and still load the trailer in bending.

[PharmGeek]

Originally Posted by crispyboy

Two things:
1.) If the city allows modification of the gutter pan I would have the contractor sawcut and remove the gutter pan along with 20' of the concrete driveway. The new approach and driveway would start where the concrete meets the asphalt. This will allow the plane to start farther from the slope of the newly poured driveway and I believe this would allow a more gentle approach to the hill. Have the contractor put some wings on the approach of the driveway which may also help if approaching from another angle.



Good Luck!

Yes...ive mulled on this today....in looking at solutions...what is clear is this:

A bit of wood in the gutter that raises it approximately 1.5 inches above the flush level of the rain gutter was enough to clear without any impact.

So...if it can be done with wood, the same could be done with concrete...the initial but if one is not careful you could create a spot for the hitch WD bars to now slap into...which could as you said I think, or insinuated, if you limit the slope to 20 inches of concrete taken out, you likely wont run into this...

As it relates...with the 2x10 under the rear truck tires, you had a distance from that tire to the tip of the WD bars of about 8 feet...which was the lowest spot then...and with the boards, it is like 1 inch clearance...

you almost really just would need to pour essentially a sharp sorta "speed bump" that got you over that low spot, but did not extend up the drive to be a hindrance for the WD jacks..coming off the "speed bump" you will no longer have the clearance issue.....that is what the board currently does, so the cocncrete could do the same....I just am kinda nervous to get to ripping anything out and then repouring with this guy...hes been super nice, amicable, but I think at this point I want to just agree to pay him the lower amount to account for the lift and Ill figure out the gutter situation on my own, if I even have to do so post lift kit...and if I need more lift than the lift kit alone provides, then I will cross that bridge (which may cost a bit...maybe 300-500 dollars.

[PharmGeek]

Originally Posted by Bill M.

If I were the contractor I would try hard to make it right in terms of grade and cost to rework. I would not want to pay for a lift kit on the trailer even if it is cheaper than the additional work.
Obviously the wheels take up clearance space and still load the trailer in bending.

I vaguely breached the subject with him today...his response was "Just let me know and that's what we'll do"....his colleague and my personal friend said: "if that was me, id jump on that"....

Your last sentence for some reason I did not follow your meaning...could you restate it? thanks.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by A W Warn

Some light reading before your next attempt >
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs...6/1356-010.pdf

Another thing to consider: How easy will it be to mow along the sides of the driveway?
If the contractor digs down to lower the elevation of the driveway will there be a drop off or a rise to either side of the concrete. Will the grassed area have to be re-graded? Is he going to come back and take care of this after the forms are removed, or leave it for you to work out?

add edit:
The International Building Code has limited the allowed driveway slope to even less than is shown in the document referenced above (25%). If I remember correctly, slope is limited to 20% now, and I do not think that is sufficient for a 30' Airstream.

My guess is that in about 20 years the driveway and the lawn will be at about the same level..... (IMHO)

[dlkershaw]

PharmGeek: I feel you pain.... just a thought, Having the same problem, when I bought my AS, I decided not to do the engineering, concrete or re design... Some of us, have decided to house our AS off site. My storage area is 4 miles from home, lighted, gated, and insured / paved flat. I know it is an additional cost , $800.00 a year. I don't have driveway issues and no need to repave or engineer. Just a thought, works for a number of AS owners. dave

[PharmGeek]

Originally Posted by dlkershaw

PharmGeek: I feel you pain.... just a thought, Having the same problem, when I bought my AS, I decided not to do the engineering, concrete or re design... Some of us, have decided to house our AS off site. My storage area is 4 miles from home, lighted, gated, and insured / paved flat. I know it is an additional cost , $800.00 a year. I don't have driveway issues and no need to repave or engineer. Just a thought, works for a number of AS owners. dave

Hey - thanks!

Keep in mind - even in this current state - using ramps - I can manage in and out. That is vastly preferred to keeping it off site for us - we have deeply enjoyed having it as a bedroom suite at home

[FishByFly]

I’ve been watching this tread with great curiosity. #118 hit the nail on the head. “Engineering”. Planning goes a long way. Shooting from the hip gets one in trouble and results of a drive that is too steep in the wrong locations. I would not have the contractor try another pass without some professional guidance.