We have to talk, boondocking and security

[starpicker]

All the situational awareness will not save you if you don’t see them, or if they come up from behind. But at least many are more aware.

I love western history during the 1800’s. Many came from the east and thought there was law enforcement and protection as found in the eastern cities. Many were taken advantage of, or attacked by various criminals and Indians. Most adapted and grew to understand the risks and defended themselves. So “situational awareness”, though not even defined at the time, grew for most into “reality awareness”. Many survived by re-assessing the risks, dismissing the way they wanted reality to be, and changed.

I have had a gun to my head once in my life. I re-assessed. It won’t happen again. Many choose to forsake firearms. That’s fine - it’s a choice to be respected either way. But I took the courses and training and found the education quite revealing and beneficial. You can be 1000 times boondocking with never an incident. But only one time can make a difference. If you live, chances are you’ll change. I don’t conceal carry in stores or in well regulated campgrounds, but when alone I conceal one. Just the threat that you can defend yourself is the ultimate deterrent.

[DavidsonOverlander]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

I’ll take my chances and benefit from a robust economy, thankyouverymuch.

Oh, sorry (said the Canadian), I thought we were talking about personal safety, not the economy. Is that robust economy somehow related to your right to carry a gun, or are you just throwing out a straw man?

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by DavidsonOverlander

Oh, sorry (said the Canadian), I thought we were talking about personal safety, not the economy. Is that robust economy somehow related to your right to carry a gun, or are you just throwing out a straw man?

Lol. No problems here, thanks.

[Bonk2u2]

While traveling by myself as a single woman I had an interesting visit with a retired policeman out on the picnic tables. He strongly urged me to travel with fluorescent orange spray paint. If an intruder took it away from me I’m not hurt and if I get a spray anywhere on him the local cops won’t have a problem identifying him. Makes sense to me.

[KK4YZ]

Originally Posted by DavidsonOverlander

....

As for knives being just as dangerous, which implies that the number of guns is not the problem:

UK murder rate: 1.2 per 100,000
Canada murder rate: 1.8 per 100,000
USA murder rate: 5.3 per 100,000

An understanding of data management and statistics is more conducive to my comfort level than carrying a gun!

Actually when you drill down into those numbers and separate out the densely populated areas, you’ll find a real correlation with large, densely populated areas and violence/murders. The US has many more of such urban areas as the UK and certainly more than Canada. Averaging these numbers across an entire country masks the issue. When you look at it, comparing urban area to urban area, the numbers look very different.

Did you know that in the first half of this year London was outpacing NYC for murders (total #)? Despite their laws there are plenty of guns in NYC. Of course the average citizen doesn’t have them, only the criminals. The London murders were largely edged weapons.

The notion that guns cause crime is ludicrous. Since you like data management and statistics, maybe you’ll appreciate that.

I know this: no one is in danger from any gun that I have unless there’s a real threat.
Afraid? Why should I be afraid? I prefer to be prepared.

[HRTKD]

When you're out in the boonies, it's very important to remember that if you hear banjos, you better get the heck out of there.

[KK4YZ]

Originally Posted by HRTKD

When you're out in the boonies, it's very important to remember that if you hear banjos, you better get the heck out of there.

Just paddle faster😳

[Hittenstiehl]

This is digressing into another thread with guys bragging about the measurements of their fish.

Why don't we just continue to talk about a variety of safety measures. We already know guns are part of the equation but there's more to discuss.

People are boondocking in the tullies, campgrounds and major cities.

Whether we like to admit it or not this is a crazy world we live in these days and just getting worse. Although this was an isolated incident it happened where many of this forumns members have actually camped and desperate people can knock on any of our doors.

Sharing ideas on safety and awareness is as good as talking about hitches. No one method is the only way. But knowing lots of ways is certainly good.

[Tony Lee]

Originally Posted by KK4YZ

I don’t feel I HAVE to be armed. I just think it’s the smart thing to

Do you know that knife murders in London have skyrocketed since they got rid of guns?

You can take a superior attitude all you want but IMHO it’s based on ignorance.

Speaking of ignorance, when did Londoners ever have access to guns. Even the police never used to be armed with anything more lethal than a whistle and a baton

[InterBlog]

I'm going to post links to a couple of other threads on this same topic, with a caveat. Inevitably, these kinds of threads aspire to degenerate into a polarized competition between the pollyanna view that it will never, ever, EVER happen to you because the world is SUCH a safe place, vs. you have to be ready and able to blow an invader away on 3 seconds notice. In fact, the truth is somewhere in between.

If the threads follow on the heels of something like what happened in Corpus Christi, then the pollyanna folks will be forced to modulate their viewpoints in the face of the obvious blatant contradiction on the table. During other times, the ostrich maneuver instinct becomes so strong that many of them will deny there's any safety risk at all.

My goal has always been to focus on risk evaluation and what exact strategies are responsive to it. I boondock almost exclusively, including urban boondocking in areas of heightened risk, and a lot of time spent in truck stops and other unconventional locations, so this is a big question for me.

So, for those of you who wish to review other content, a thread called Comprehensive DVR and security camera system talks about tech options (and the relative lack thereof) in this safety context.

Here's another doozie called Security while boondocking. Those of you with the intestinal fortitude to read it will see that, not only is there an ostrich maneuver at work, it's so strong that it inspired some people to petition for a change to the very definition of boondocking, so that the obvious contextual risks could be artificially deleted by exclusion. If you can't win by logical argument, try some trickery instead. Nevertheless, there are some innovative non-lethal self-defense ideas in that thread. I've put several of them into practice.

If you take nothing else away from these discussions, at least know this much:

Generalized population statistics are NOT a predictor of your personal risk; in fact, they can be dangerously misleading. Your behavior is a predictor of your risk. And if you choose to engage in certain behaviors that 99% of the rest of the population avoids, your risk can silently and deceptively skyrocket.

Unfortunately, we cannot know the exact risks across a smorgasbord of boondocking scenarios - there's no practical way to measure it. So we have to default to common sense and reasonable preparation instead.

[SnowWanderer]

Originally Posted by drbrick

I find this whole discussion about Boondocking and carrying Guns to be safe in America very sad - I am glad I live in Canada. While Toronto seems to becoming a bit scary (for me as a Canadian) with around 35 murders by guns each year (I wonder where these guns come from?).

Also like most of you have written, I too use common sense and listen to that wee small voice inside me is saying when it come to being smart where I camp. If I have to be armed with a gun each place I go camping to feel safe in the US, because of my Canadian cultural background perhaps I just wouldn't go there. So thank you for inferring through this discussion that perhaps I should change my future Travel Plans.

Well, your 'Canadian Culture' is likely to result in a situation you will be incapble of dealing with or possibly surviving. A quick search uncovered the following statistics involving homicides in Canada. While other weapons and methods were also used to kill people, I just list the two methods with the highest individual numbers.... since you seem more concered anout being murdered by a gun rather than intentionally burned to death, strangled or run over. It's interesting to note that firearm homicides are going up in Canada.

And since you wonder where the guns come from, you should also then wonder where the knives come from and the liquid accelerants and the cars... .

...........2014....2015....2016....2017....2018
Gun.....157.......175......223......267.....249
Knife...189.......216......175......203.....183

The bottom line is this..... your odds of being murdered in either country are extremely low. However, if you are faced with that threat.... you had best be better prepared and armed than the perpetrator.

[SnowWanderer]

Originally Posted by Jeeper

In my very real experience, thugs are scared of two things:
1. A woman with a handgun/shotgun.
2. A man with a big knife.

A man with a gun is not feared so much. The thugs 'know' that common folks will hesitate to use it, which gives them time to take it from you.

I am a vet, so nobody can take my pistol, but a thug will not turn and run away from a man with a gun, until a bullet grazes his earlobe.

However, a thug will move off, if you have a big hunting knife, with the tip lodged under his chin and a trickle of blood running down his neck... but whatever you do, you need to be fast, since you will get only one chance.

The point is that there are a small number of incredibly horrible people in the world and you need to be prepared to handle them one way or another. Being a sheep, only works if there is a big flock and you are in the middle.

I am curious.... if you think a man is reluctant to use a firearm, why do you think he wouldn't be just as reluctant to use an edged weapon... especially since using an edged weapon is a more 'intimate' (for lack of a better term), more close quarter/ hands on weapon?

[KK4YZ]

[QUOTE=Tony Lee;2306823]Speaking of ignorance, when did Londoners ever have access to guns. Even the police never used to be armed with anything more lethal than a whistle and a baton[/QUOTE

Handguns were banned in the UK with certain exceptions in N Ireland by laws passed in 1996 and amended in 1997. Prior to that Londoners did indeed have access to guns.

The weapon of choice is now a knife. The authorities there are trying to discourage possession of knives now. When will they ever learn?

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

The sad fact about gun ownership, is that very, very few are taught to hold fire, until they are 100% sure that what they are pointing their gun at, is a threat.

To hold fire while your body is full of adrenaline is a feat that is very hard to master; especially if you own a gun because you are fearful.

That's why we were taught not to shoot until we were bloody sure; even while coming under fire.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

Hi

Exactly correct. Pulling the trigger when you should not do so is quite common, even among those who do have a lot of training. It’s not just about getting the M1911 (not a 1911A..... ) out of the holster.

Bob

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by drbrick

I find this whole discussion about Boondocking and carrying Guns to be safe in America very sad - I am glad I live in Canada. While Toronto seems to becoming a bit scary (for me as a Canadian) with around 35 murders by guns each year (I wonder where these guns come from?).

Also like most of you have written, I too use common sense and listen to that wee small voice inside me is saying when it come to being smart where I camp. If I have to be armed with a gun each place I go camping to feel safe in the US, because of my Canadian cultural background perhaps I just wouldn't go there. So thank you for inferring through this discussion that perhaps I should change my future Travel Plans.

Guns have been effectively illegal in Mexico since its Communist revolution a hundred years back.

Criminals will always find a way to arm themselves, especially when law abiding people can not.

I'm sitting about 20 miles from the Mexican border right now, but I'll never cross that line, so maybe perhaps you should stay in Canada.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Exactly correct. Pulling the trigger when you should not do so is quite common, even among those who do have a lot of training. It’s not just about getting the M1911 (not a 1911A..... ) out of the holster.

Bob

Quite common? In my Detroit suburb (a few feet from detroit) we have about one shooting every 10 years.

It’s all about staying away from the wrong places.

[wave man]

Well said

[DavidsonOverlander]

Originally Posted by KK4YZ

Actually when you drill down into those numbers and separate out the densely populated areas, you’ll find a real correlation with large, densely populated areas and violence/murders. The US has many more of such urban areas as the UK and certainly more than Canada. Averaging these numbers across an entire country masks the issue. When you look at it, comparing urban area to urban area, the numbers look very different.

Did you know that in the first half of this year London was outpacing NYC for murders (total #)? Despite their laws there are plenty of guns in NYC. Of course the average citizen doesn’t have them, only the criminals. The London murders were largely edged weapons.

The notion that guns cause crime is ludicrous. Since you like data management and statistics, maybe you’ll appreciate that.

I know this: no one is in danger from any gun that I have unless there’s a real threat.
Afraid? Why should I be afraid? I prefer to be prepared.

Not sure what you mean about the urban/rural divide. According the the University of Michigan, about 84% of Americans live in urban areas. According to Statistics Canada, about 81% of Canadians live in urban areas. America has more urban areas because the population is much higher, but there's not much difference in the proportion of people living there.

If America's murder rate is not associated with the number of guns, what explains it? It is 3 times higher than in Canada, which has about a third the percentage of people who own guns. It is 26 times higher than Japan which has very strict gun control laws. There is no country with a similar level of development and standard of living as the USA that has a higher murder rate.

I am aware that London was outpacing NYC for murders for a time, but over 2018 there were about twice as many murders in NYC than London (per 100,000).

Whatever the cause, the odds of being attacked are very low almost everywhere you go in the world, but people get scared because isolated incidents make the news.

I don't question your right to carry a gun, one of my best friends carries a gun (except when he comes to Canada of course), but the easier it is to get a gun the more chance there is that those who are not responsible will get ahold one. I'm sure everyone thinks they're a responsible gun owner until their kid takes their gun to school or uses it to commit suicide, or their gun is stolen.

[DavidsonOverlander]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Guns have been effectively illegal in Mexico since its Communist revolution a hundred years back.

It's difficult for Mexico and Canada to control illegal guns because both countries have long borders with America which need to be relatively open due to the high volume of trade.

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

I'm sitting about 20 miles from the Mexican border right now, but I'll never cross that line, so maybe perhaps you should stay in Canada.

As I've already stated, the slightly increased risk of travelling in America doesn't keep me from visiting. Other than a few extremes, I don't believe fear should keep us from seeing the world!

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by DavidsonOverlander

It's difficult for Mexico and Canada to control illegal guns because both countries have long borders with America which need to be relatively open due to the high volume of trade.

Yeah, certainly all nations with high gun violence rates share a long border with America, and certainly Mexican drug cartels wouldn't be able to source guns from America or around the world if it weren't for the cross border drug trade.

Good point!