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Old 11-11-2019, 11:45 AM   #121
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[QUOTE=DavidsonOverlander;2306927]...... but the easier it is to get a gun the more chance there is that those who are not responsible will get ahold one. [quote]

Easier for who? Criminals or everyday people? Anything is “easy” to get if you want to do it illegally and work with nefarious people! Anywhere.
Crime is a people problem, not a hardware problem. The knife murders in London support that.

Quote:
I'm sure everyone thinks they're a responsible gun owner until their kid takes their gun to school or uses it to commit suicide, or their gun is stolen.
How much of the murder rate is impacted by cases like these? The media dwell on these sad cases, but ignore the everyday street crimes like in Chicago. Those numbers are really high.

Like I said: it’s a people problem, not a hardware problem. The people problem is much harder to solve.

The nice thing about living in a free country (with some exceptions- Chicago, NYC, NJ) is that you have the freedom to choose your own course of action.

I think we beat this topic to death (no pun intended) and won’t change each other’s mind.
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Old 11-11-2019, 01:52 PM   #122
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[QUOTE=KK4YZ;2306952]
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Originally Posted by DavidsonOverlander View Post

I think we beat this topic to death (no pun intended) and won’t change each other’s mind.
That kind of sums it up !

My intent in starting the thread was not to launch an AS community civil war!! (this is almost as bad as threads about hitches and towing vehicles)

Thanks for the 120 or so posts, and the 9600 views. Hopefully this will have raised awareness about boondocking security in the context of the rare, tragic and very sad event on Padre Island.

Nevertheless, happy and SAFE travels!
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Old 11-11-2019, 03:03 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by KK4YZ View Post

Crime is a people problem, not a hardware problem. The knife murders in London support that.

I can’t disagree per se. I mean - a neo-nazi killed a woman with his car - we don’t ban cars because of that. I agree that people bent on crime will commit it with whatever hardware (or software) they can and we won’t get to a zero crime rate ever. But London didn’t prove anything about guns vs knives (or vans for that matter if you recall that tragedy...).

Could it be a both/and problem and not an either/or?

For example - would Columbine, or Sandy Hook, or Marjory Stoneman Douglass School - or....pick from the myriad of horrific mass murders - have been as devastating in scale if the criminals were wielding knives instead of guns of any variety, especially semi-automatic ones?

Moreover - if we have a people problem - wouldn’t that be the reason why some sensible background checks, waiting periods, etc. ought to be welcome by all - gun owners or not?

We have restrictions around “free speech” (libel, slander come to mind), we have restrictions on voting (must be a certain age), we even apply a test to see if someone is mentally capable of standing trial (without a need to exercise his/her 5th amendment rights) etc. Maybe we don’t restrict the hardware as much as the problematic people who shouldn’t have access to it in the first place. Is that overly controversial?

I haven’t boondocked on BLM or other dispersed lands. I hope to someday. This is a pretty marvelous country with great people and a lot to see and be grateful for. There’s a small percentage of criminals that can do anyone harm in any number of ways. I think some excellent tips have been provided here, including carrying for those who are so inclined, licensed, and well trained.

Safe travels to all.
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Old 11-11-2019, 04:32 PM   #124
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Could it be a both/and problem and not an either/or?

Yes, it is a “both” problem.

Restricting the hardware is highly controversial, and trying to define who is “problematic” would be equally so.

There are answers out there, but not the stomach for them.

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Old 11-11-2019, 04:55 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
I can’t disagree per se. I mean - a neo-nazi killed a woman with his car - we don’t ban cars because of that. I agree that people bent on crime will commit it with whatever hardware (or software) they can and we won’t get to a zero crime rate ever. But London didn’t prove anything about guns vs knives (or vans for that matter if you recall that tragedy...).

Could it be a both/and problem and not an either/or?

For example - would Columbine, or Sandy Hook, or Marjory Stoneman Douglass School - or....pick from the myriad of horrific mass murders - have been as devastating in scale if the criminals were wielding knives instead of guns of any variety, especially semi-automatic ones?

Moreover - if we have a people problem - wouldn’t that be the reason why some sensible background checks, waiting periods, etc. ought to be welcome by all - gun owners or not?

We have restrictions around “free speech” (libel, slander come to mind), we have restrictions on voting (must be a certain age), we even apply a test to see if someone is mentally capable of standing trial (without a need to exercise his/her 5th amendment rights) etc. Maybe we don’t restrict the hardware as much as the problematic people who shouldn’t have access to it in the first place. Is that overly controversial?

I haven’t boondocked on BLM or other dispersed lands. I hope to someday. This is a pretty marvelous country with great people and a lot to see and be grateful for. There’s a small percentage of criminals that can do anyone harm in any number of ways. I think some excellent tips have been provided here, including carrying for those who are so inclined, licensed, and well trained.

Safe travels to all.
We’ve boondocked BLM land near the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. It was great. We were with a large group as part of a caravan. Even at that, the caravan leaders were careful not to put out signs on the main road to guide us in like every other stop. They figure there was no point in advertising our presence.

As far as gun laws, we don’t fully enforce the ones we have now. It’s illegal to lie on the form to purchase a gun. Yet when someone’s background check turns up a problem, there is rarely a prosecution that takes place as a result in many (most’ jurisdictions.

Sure we need to have limits and indeed we do. But we live in a free society and need to balance our rights and restrictions.

Did you know that the FBI concluded that the “assault rifle ban 1994” had no discernible impact on gun violence. Yet people want to reinstate it. Why?
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Old 11-11-2019, 05:16 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by KK4YZ View Post
We’ve boondocked BLM land near the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. It was great. We were with a large group as part of a caravan. Even at that, the caravan leaders were careful not to put out signs on the main road to guide us in like every other stop. They figure there was no point in advertising our presence.



As far as gun laws, we don’t fully enforce the ones we have now. It’s illegal to lie on the form to purchase a gun. Yet when someone’s background check turns up a problem, there is rarely a prosecution that takes place as a result in many (most’ jurisdictions.



Sure we need to have limits and indeed we do. But we live in a free society and need to balance our rights and restrictions.



Did you know that the FBI concluded that the “assault rifle ban 1994” had no discernible impact on gun violence. Yet people want to reinstate it. Why?


The BLM camping trip sounds wonderful - and I think there’s some wisdom there about not advertising presence. Lots of life is a balance. It’s messy. Ideally that precaution wouldn’t be necessary - and - we don’t live in an ideal world - so, good move and glad you could all enjoy it.

As for lack of enforcement - you’re 100% right. Totally agree. That’s a very good first step. Why we back off that is a mystery.

As to why the desire to reinstate a ban that wasn’t proved to reduce gun violence? I really don’t know. I can speculate (and it’s really just that - pure speculation) that in the absence of some meaningful movement on the issue while mass shooting tragedies continue unabated - people may be grasping at straws for *anything* to hopefully make a difference. Perhaps feeling somewhat helpless, any action - even if not overly effective - is perceived to have a higher value proposition than the often used “thoughts and prayers” response, which even when heartfelt, just doesn’t reduce the violence.

I think it could be very powerful if we took your idea and increased enforcement of current laws and saw some impact from that. I’m open to anything that can improve the situation.

Until then - happy and safe camping to all.
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Old 11-11-2019, 05:45 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
The BLM camping trip sounds wonderful - and I think there’s some wisdom there about not advertising presence. Lots of life is a balance. It’s messy. Ideally that precaution wouldn’t be necessary - and - we don’t live in an ideal world - so, good move and glad you could all enjoy it.

As for lack of enforcement - you’re 100% right. Totally agree. That’s a very good first step. Why we back off that is a mystery.

As to why the desire to reinstate a ban that wasn’t proved to reduce gun violence? I really don’t know. I can speculate (and it’s really just that - pure speculation) that in the absence of some meaningful movement on the issue while mass shooting tragedies continue unabated - people may be grasping at straws for *anything* to hopefully make a difference. Perhaps feeling somewhat helpless, any action - even if not overly effective - is perceived to have a higher value proposition than the often used “thoughts and prayers” response, which even when heartfelt, just doesn’t reduce the violence.

I think it could be very powerful if we took your idea and increased enforcement of current laws and saw some impact from that. I’m open to anything that can improve the situation.

Until then - happy and safe camping to all.
Good evening, sir. BTW, I like that dog 😀
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:20 PM   #128
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Funny! I didn't actually write the text that was quoted to me in post #122, but I agree completely with KK4YZ's comment!
With that, I'm unsubscribing from this thread.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:26 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KK4YZ View Post
We’ve boondocked BLM land near the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. It was great. We were with a large group as part of a caravan. Even at that, the caravan leaders were careful not to put out signs on the main road to guide us in like every other stop. They figure there was no point in advertising our presence.

As far as gun laws, we don’t fully enforce the ones we have now. It’s illegal to lie on the form to purchase a gun. Yet when someone’s background check turns up a problem, there is rarely a prosecution that takes place as a result in many (most’ jurisdictions.

Sure we need to have limits and indeed we do. But we live in a free society and need to balance our rights and restrictions.

Did you know that the FBI concluded that the “assault rifle ban 1994” had no discernible impact on gun violence. Yet people want to reinstate it. Why?
You made some great points. A free society means that we take greater risks since we have fewer restrictions. I'll take freedom any day!
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:31 PM   #130
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California is as safe as any other state

I've never had a gun. I've shot a few times with friends who owned them, even a fully automatic rifle. It hasn't appealed to me. I've never felt I needed that level of protection, and I've camped up and down the state, though mostly at developed campgrounds and state parks. Many times by myself. California is as safe as anyplace.

If all it took was ready access to a gun, along with exceptional training and skill, then there would never be a police officer killed in the line of duty.

In the martial arts, we're trained to not use our skills. But even if you do, you never know if your opponent has better skills. Even if you have a gun, they may have one too. You don't know. My biggest issue with a gun is that I don't know that I would be able to use it ... knowing that I would kill another person. Or worse, if I would harm an innocent. Even that split second of hesitation has put me in a far more dangerous situation than not having the weapon at all. Also, any weapon you have in a fight is a weapon that can be used against you. It's only a deterrent if someone is deterred.

I think that situational awareness is key. Just because I don't have a gun, doesn't mean I'm defenseless, or a victim. There is a reason I haven't been a victim (yet), and I intend to keep it that way. But there is always the possibility that someone with bad intent, or bad thoughts, will want to do me harm. Not all will be easily deterred, but some will choose another target if I can make myself appear to be more dangerous. Part of that is not panicking, not being afraid, refusing to back down, and being ready. But mostly it's not letting you get to the point where you have to defend yourself. In the end, there may be nothing that I can do to stop it, short of walling myself away in a fortress. So I accept that I am mortal. It is not sticking my head in the sand. It is reality. We all become a statistic, eventually.

Also, you have to recognize that this lifestyle is going to be attractive to people who look at you like you must be made of money. Airstreams, big fancy trucks, other obvious accoutrements, all point to a level of wealth. Be careful what you flaunt. There are a lot of people who will recognize that and instantly resent it. Many crimes are born of passion, anger, jealousy. Very few are committed by true sociopaths.

Nobody mentioned alcohol ... it probably contributes more to problems on both sides. I recognize that it's fun to relax and throw back a few. But it dulls your senses too. I don't know if that was a factor in the Texas incident, but I can imagine how it could go down with sitting around a campfire, and someone coming up to you, particularly if another man and woman, maybe even if they started out nice, "here's a nice couple to share the evening with." They could be predators, just waiting for the right moment. Nothing you could do, really.

But as has been said, a big dog is an amazing deterrent. I was once approached by a young man in a parking lot who was trying to sell some watches or jewelry or something. I didn't feel threatened at all, but he came up to me just as I was getting my shepherd dog out of the truck. Never seen someone do a 180 so quickly and walk away as soon as my dog came into view. That was all it took.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:40 PM   #131
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Good evening, sir. BTW, I like that dog


Thanks. That’s Daisy the bloodhound - greatest dog we’ve ever been owned by. Miss her every day. She was one fantastic camping buddy. Not much of a security deterrent though - she probably would have licked anyone who entered the trailer and then flip to her back to give full belly, expecting a rub
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:56 PM   #132
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We have to talk, boondocking and security

That was Bismarck our Giant Schnauzer, best and friendliest dog you ever met, until he perceived a threat. Then he went on guard sitting at my side, with a deep growl, didn’t move an inch, the threat always left the area.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:14 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by KK4YZ View Post

Sure we need to have limits and indeed we do. But we live in a free society and need to balance our rights and restrictions.

Did you know that the FBI concluded that the “assault rifle ban 1994” had no discernible impact on gun violence. Yet people want to reinstate it. Why?
You are right.....but where does your right to carry a gun, out way a person that doesn't. That's the problem with gun folks that talk of unarmed people as "sheep". Gun people think they are somehow smarter than people that don't carry.

As for an assault rifle.....why by your own definition would you want an untrained civilian processing an "assault" weapon? There is NO reason whatsoever a civilian should possess any weapon capable of delivering hundreds of high velocity rounds, period!

Don't even try to define them as hunting rifles. True hunting rifles are bolt action, and by their design force you to wait, make sure you have correctly identified your target, calculated range, windage, patience and practice......because you have just one shot! It gives the hunted a sporting chance if the hunter or weapon isn't up to snuff.

Spraying a target with ammo from a crap gun like the AR series isn't hunting. At least use a FN FAL! Trust me, after three shots from a FN FAL, most people are shooting the sky.

Cheers
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:32 PM   #134
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We have to talk, boondocking and security

Quote:
Gun people think they are somehow smarter than people that don't carry.

Maybe just a bit of an over generalization?
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Old 11-11-2019, 10:37 PM   #135
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Gun people think they are somehow smarter than people that don't carry.
That’s disrespectful for reasons you might never understand.
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Old 11-11-2019, 11:14 PM   #136
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As for an assault rifle.....why by your own definition would you want an untrained civilian processing an "assault" weapon? There is NO reason whatsoever a civilian should possess any weapon capable of delivering hundreds of high velocity rounds, period!

Don't even try to define them as hunting rifles. True hunting rifles are bolt action, and by their design force you
When almost every genocide in the last 100 years was proceeded by some form of government enacted gun control/confiscation. History speaks to some people about why they should possess certain weapons. This IS (capataliam added for effects like I'm shouting) just one of many good reasons for owning certain weapons.

As I have a hard enough time putting a fish to sleep so I can feed myself, I'm not really the hunting type. But. They really do make fantastic hunting rifles. The reasons they do should be pretty damn obvious given that they were designed by the United States military for use in a war.
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Old 11-11-2019, 11:25 PM   #137
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As for the OP's thread going off topic. Well. Nobody could have ever saw that coming now could they? You're literally asking a bunch of Americans on how to best protect yourself!!!!!
It was on the path to this from the get go. Still. Even though theres a bit of "I'm right, You're wrong" going on. It's much more interesting reading than the usual bunch of guys banging on about pick up trucks and the best tires to buy.

From reading all the posts. So far I have learnt that people have too much fear of going out into the wild where they're infinitely safer residing for the weekend than in any city anywhere. And also:

You should keep bright paint at your door so after you get attacked, the police can find the suspect easier.

Something about security cameras. I guess they can watch the guy who attacked you running around with paint all over him.

Calling the cops (if you even have reception) will result in them arriving 5 to 24 hours later.

Some people like guns. Some people hate them.

Canadians don't have as many guns, so Americans shouldn't either.

Spraying chemicals into peoples eyes is pretty effective at dehabilitating them.

Dogs bark at strange noises and can protect their owners.

Something about men running away from men with knives, but not from men with guns.

And lastly. If someone tries to attack you and you happen to shoot them with a gun. Chances are they wont be attacking you. But it is important to get training first. Cause I said so and if I didn't say that, I'd be irresponsible, so there for I have to.
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Old 11-12-2019, 06:14 AM   #138
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When almost every genocide in the last 100 years was proceeded by some form of government enacted gun control/confiscation. History speaks to some people about why they should possess certain weapons. This IS (capataliam added for effects like I'm shouting) just one of many good reasons for owning certain weapons.

As I have a hard enough time putting a fish to sleep so I can feed myself, I'm not really the hunting type. But. They really do make fantastic hunting rifles. The reasons they do should be pretty damn obvious given that they were designed by the United States military for use in a war.
So there has been a genocide in Britain since it constituted a handgun ban; or Australia? Has there been a genocide in New Zealand, since that governments decision to ban assault and semi automatic weapons?
It hasn't, because they are civilized sociaties that value life over death; however, this could never happen in the US.

As for your suggestion that AR's are fantastic hunting rifles.....if you and I faced off; you with your AR, and me with a FN FAL, (British SLR); or better yet, my 50 year old bolt action L42A1; you'd lose.

Cheers
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Old 11-12-2019, 06:49 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by KK4YZ View Post
We’ve boondocked BLM land near the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. It was great. We were with a large group as part of a caravan. Even at that, the caravan leaders were careful not to put out signs on the main road to guide us in like every other stop. They figure there was no point in advertising our presence.

As far as gun laws, we don’t fully enforce the ones we have now. It’s illegal to lie on the form to purchase a gun. Yet when someone’s background check turns up a problem, there is rarely a prosecution that takes place as a result in many (most’ jurisdictions.

Sure we need to have limits and indeed we do. But we live in a free society and need to balance our rights and restrictions.

Did you know that the FBI concluded that the “assault rifle ban 1994” had no discernible impact on gun violence. Yet people want to reinstate it. Why?
Columbine.......? Keep in mind, the first domestic terrorist act at a school in this country occured May 18, 1927, when the Bath Consolidated School was BLOWN UP by a maniac, killing 38 children and 6 teachers.... and a firearm was never used.

It is not the device used to murder, but the murderer that you should fear and take steps to avoid or address.
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Old 11-12-2019, 07:00 AM   #140
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I've never had a gun. I've shot a few times with friends who owned them, even a fully automatic rifle. It hasn't appealed to me. I've never felt I needed that level of protection, and I've camped up and down the state, though mostly at developed campgrounds and state parks. Many times by myself. California is as safe as anyplace.

If all it took was ready access to a gun, along with exceptional training and skill, then there would never be a police officer killed in the line of duty.

In the martial arts, we're trained to not use our skills. But even if you do, you never know if your opponent has better skills. Even if you have a gun, they may have one too. You don't know. My biggest issue with a gun is that I don't know that I would be able to use it ... knowing that I would kill another person. Or worse, if I would harm an innocent. Even that split second of hesitation has put me in a far more dangerous situation than not having the weapon at all. Also, any weapon you have in a fight is a weapon that can be used against you. It's only a deterrent if someone is deterred.

I think that situational awareness is key. Just because I don't have a gun, doesn't mean I'm defenseless, or a victim. There is a reason I haven't been a victim (yet), and I intend to keep it that way. But there is always the possibility that someone with bad intent, or bad thoughts, will want to do me harm. Not all will be easily deterred, but some will choose another target if I can make myself appear to be more dangerous. Part of that is not panicking, not being afraid, refusing to back down, and being ready. But mostly it's not letting you get to the point where you have to defend yourself. In the end, there may be nothing that I can do to stop it, short of walling myself away in a fortress. So I accept that I am mortal. It is not sticking my head in the sand. It is reality. We all become a statistic, eventually.

Also, you have to recognize that this lifestyle is going to be attractive to people who look at you like you must be made of money. Airstreams, big fancy trucks, other obvious accoutrements, all point to a level of wealth. Be careful what you flaunt. There are a lot of people who will recognize that and instantly resent it. Many crimes are born of passion, anger, jealousy. Very few are committed by true sociopaths.

Nobody mentioned alcohol ... it probably contributes more to problems on both sides. I recognize that it's fun to relax and throw back a few. But it dulls your senses too. I don't know if that was a factor in the Texas incident, but I can imagine how it could go down with sitting around a campfire, and someone coming up to you, particularly if another man and woman, maybe even if they started out nice, "here's a nice couple to share the evening with." They could be predators, just waiting for the right moment. Nothing you could do, really.

But as has been said, a big dog is an amazing deterrent. I was once approached by a young man in a parking lot who was trying to sell some watches or jewelry or something. I didn't feel threatened at all, but he came up to me just as I was getting my shepherd dog out of the truck. Never seen someone do a 180 so quickly and walk away as soon as my dog came into view. That was all it took.
Cops and ready access to guns???!!! Keep in mind that police officers generally REACT to situations. As such, when a bad guy starts to assault an officer, the officer has to recognize the threat, evaluate the severity of the threat, determine an appropriate response to that threat and begin to act upon that threat... in a split second. The bad guy always has the upper hand. When the bad guy gets the first shot off and hits the officer in the head or heart, it did not matter that the officer had a gun!
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