WBCCI MOHO issue - 2010 to 2012

[rideair]

Lynn,

Me, Never

What's the old saying:

"If you can't beat them, Join them"

[eubank]

In truth, if such an ad-hoc, non-principled approach were taken, then I'd even suggest some more safeguards:

1. These folks have to re-petition for membership every year.

2. Since this would be by-laws rather than constitution (I think?), I'd suggest that it include a sunset provision. After all, this whole problem is a temporary one (obviously), so there's absolutely no reason for an escape-hatch provision to go on forever.


Lynn

[Gene]

This discussion looks like some hair splitting, but I am not against hair splitting if it attains a desired result. But what would the result be?

Might it become the Wally Byam Motorhome Club, if not in name, perhaps in fact? Partly that would be dependent on how one gains permission to stay or join once they have gotten a rogue brand. If the rules are loose enough to allow hundreds (or more) to join or stay, would the club become dominated by rogues? If motorhome owners dominate the leadership now, what would happen in the future? Will people thinking of joining this club not do so because it looks like a motorhome club, not a trailer club? Why can't Airstream motorhome owners maintain and update their units like trailer owners do? Would the leadership, many, perhaps a majority, all rogue motorhome owners, market membership to people like themselves and ignore the trailer crowd?

When people think Airstream, don't they think trailer? Isn't the trailer the American icon? Can't it be argued the Airstream motorhome is not really an Airstream, but a Thor product made to look Airstreamy? Following that premise, shouldn't "Airstream" motorhome owners not be permitted to be members of the WBCCI?

I know that is not going to happen, but I make the argument to illustrate the ambiguous nature of motorhomes in the Airstream tradition. When I see one, it looks like a better looking motorhome, not particularly like an Airstream. If I were in the market for a motorhome, I'd consider one—if membership requirements in the WBCCI are expanded to allow rogues, I suppose there will be a lot of Airstream motorhomes for sale, so that would be the time to buy one.

If the argument is to be fair to people with aging motorhomes, what is fair to those who have an aging trailer and can't afford a new Airstream trailer? And why just Thor products? What makes them different from other brands, some of which are better made RV's?

Fairness can lead to including everyone who ever was inside an Airstream (extreme) to people whose grandparents had one to people who can't afford a new one, ad infinitum. I think looking at what Airstream means and having an organization that promotes that may led to a better result.

Gene

[eubank]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

... When I see one, it looks like a better looking motorhome, not particularly like an Airstream. If I were in the market for a motorhome, I'd consider one—if membership requirements in the WBCCI are expanded to allow rogues, I suppose there will be a lot of Airstream motorhomes for sale, so that would be the time to buy one.

... Gene

Yep, those new motorhomes don't look very airstreamy at all. You can't tell them from any other rig at first glance. I usually think of the more classic models:



As far as the ad-hoc proposal I made is concerned, though, it wouldn't work: While you own an Airstream now, you're not a member, so no-go. (I also mentioned some potential, additional provisions one might throw in, e.g., length of time with Airstream, length of time of current membership.)


Lynn

[rideair]

Again, many in the general membership does not know about the forward thinking members on these "Special Committee's". There is a reason why we need to include "ALL" THOR motorhome into the WBCCI. If we don't how will they be able to provide the great entertainment at the next International Rally we all have been asking for over the years?

I was able to get a preview of that entertainment.

YouTube - ‪Motorhome Demolition Derby OC Fair Awesome Footage‬‏

[noreen&sal]

If I believed any of this for one second I would quit and join Good Sam. Sal.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by eubank

Yep, those new motorhomes don't look very airstreamy at all. You can't tell them from any other rig at first glance. I usually think of the more classic models:



As far as the ad-hoc proposal I made is concerned, though, it wouldn't work: While you own an Airstream now, you're not a member, so no-go. (I also mentioned some potential, additional provisions one might throw in, e.g., length of time with Airstream, length of time of current membership.)


Lynn

Lynn, if I had to buy a motorhome, that one is far better looking than later models, but that's not the point.

One part is trying to come up with a rule for who's in and who's out is difficult—how many years are fair, for example. You could have a rule about percentage of Airstream content if you want to get really complicated. If I recall correctly, Airstream motorhomes were never made in JC and were adapted to look Airstreamy, but were another Thor brand underneath the skin.

The last years of Airstream motorhomes look pretty generic and that may be why they didn't sell too well. Lack of distinction between marques eventually helped to kill Plymouth, DeSoto, Mercury, Oldsmobile and Pontiac. A 2005 Airstream motorhome doesn't say Airstream and if Thor were to do the same thing again, I doubt they would sell many (pent up demand might help for a year or two, but that's it).

And what about vans? They are conversion vans converted at JC—are they really Airstreams?

If it was originally badged Airstream, seems like it is an Airstream—round, square or goofy looking (think Basecamp and maybe the last motorhomes). Argosy is the exception to be considered Airstream to me and perhaps cousins like Streamline and such.

The main point is: What do we visualize when we think "Airstream"? That concept should determine who is eligible for membership in an Airstream group. The Forum is less exclusive—owners of cousin aluminum trailers or people without an RV can join. Even space aliens are allowed and some members may well be space aliens—read some of those strange posts. That inclusivity hasn't hurt the Forum and I'm unsure how you could limit Forum membership or whether that would make sense. The Forum experience may prove me wrong, but the Forum experience seems different than a club experience. There are other groups—TAC, etc.—and they have no rules or seem not to, although rules always show up, but appear to be all Airstream at the moment.

This should be a separate issue from WBCCI governance, but like all such debates, it is woven into it—if all motorhomes were excluded from the WBCCI, maybe the leadership issues would be solved. If rogue brands were not allowed in, maybe the leaders would buy a rogue and no longer be leaders. Best to keep the issues separate, but I know that's not going to happen.

Gene

[gaylejoe]

When I hear the name "Airstream" I think of the Silver Bullet.

[eubank]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Lynn ...If rogue brands were not allowed in, maybe the leaders would buy a rogue and no longer be leaders. Best to keep the issues separate, but I know that's not going to happen.
Gene

Yes, ultimately separate issues are tossed together in an unfortunate fashion. It's true that some of the people at the top are big class A owners, but the big class A owners are hardly the only owners of Airstream motorhomes, not by a long shot. (I've been lusting after some of the vintage ones for some time now. The motorhomes, not the people.)


Lynn

[Ed Emerick]

Originally Posted by RickDavis

Perhaps we need to define "high mileage home".
It seems to me with reasonable maintenance those thing should go several hundred K. More if diesel.
There is a difference betwen wanting a new one and needing a new one.

Admittedly the question comes from one with a 50 year old trailer and a half million mile plus TV so I am not very sympathetic with these folks perceived need.

It’s the PERCEIVED NEED. What they really want is more bump outs, more goodies and more status. What they need to do is move on to another club that will take those new MOHOs.

As far as loosing friends it’s easy to go camping with Airstream owners and non-Airstream owners, we do it all the time, just not at an Airstream function. I see no reason why they can't chum around with their old friends with a non-Airstream MOHO, no one is stopping them from doing that.

AND if they can't pull or drive the old MOHO, I have to ask, are they still able to get down the road safe in the state they are in. Makes me wonder......

Don't be mistaken this is driven by the IBT to let the good old boys have new toys that are not Airstream and still control my club.

[eubank]

Originally Posted by Ed Emerick

...Don't be mistaken this is driven by the IBT to let the good old boys have new toys that are not Airstream and still control my club.

Personally, I wouldn't doubt for a second that some of these types are pushing this hard. And if they want to change the constitution to allow just any ol' body into our club, they'll face stern resistence from many members, myself included!

That's more or less why I'm pushing something that would make such a move less likely. Much more limited, ad hoc and transitory, ultimately more difficult, with plenty of restrictions. (Among others, I do like that idea of including the "no leadership positions" into the mix.)

If they don't go for that kind of proposal, then their ultimate goal of changing the fundamental Airstream-only nature of the club would be exposed, and the fight is on.


Lynn

[mbmbstreamer]

The club is wasting time looking in the wrong direction. Look for activities that interest Airstream Owners. There are far too many who wouldn't consider the club!

Shorter Caravans, outdoor activities, special event rallies, reasonable fees for those who can't be there on Wednesday!

No non-Airstreams!

[az-streamer]

so - if you are getting too old to tow an AS, you want an AS moho.
but they are not making AS moho anymore due to kack of demand.

so, the old folks now want to be able to drive non-AS and still be members of AS.

the logical extention to this is first golf carts then "mobility" scooters.

YouTube - ‪Seinfeld - George vs. The Geriatric Bike Gang‬‏

some people need to accept the facts and hang up their keys when they can no longer operate a vehicle safely. being of a certain age myself, I sympathize but hey getting old sucks - but it sure beats the alternative.

do they accept tricycles in racing bike clubs?
do they accept Pintos in the Mustang Club?

if they let non-AS units into the club it is no longer an AS club.

just my 2c.

[RickDavis]

Originally Posted by mbmbstreamer

Shorter Caravans, outdoor activities, special event rallies, reasonable fees for those who can't be there on Wednesday!

No non-Airstreams!

So what has the club done to accomplish these goals over the last couple years?

Lets see, They have twice turned down a shorter caravan change citing ridiculous reasons like 'the directory page count would go up listing all these caravans", and " The caravanners might miss church on Sunday"

And then they lost a NEW special events rally by kicking the person behind The Pocono rally out of the club.

And if that is not enough they then harrassed the members behind the (formerly) Wally Byam birthday bash until at least two of the folks behind it left the club and it was no longer an official WBCCI event.

Not a bad record for achieving the goals Matt lists above.

I might add that Carol and I thoroughly enjoyed both of these non sanctioned events and expect to enjoy a non sanctioned caravan this summer and also the second Birthday Bash.

There is life and fun with your Airstream and Airstream friends without the WBCCI.

Perhaps the officers will realize that the WBCCI is NOT the only Airstream game in town before it is too late.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by eubank

I've been lusting after some of the vintage ones for some time now. The motorhomes, not the people.


Lynn

I've seen some pretty lusty vintage people too, but it seems they are usually not in motorhomes. I think the progression is backpacking, tent camping via truck, popup or truck camper, trailer, motorhome, hearse. Sounds like you are getting to the next to last stage. We'll miss you.

Gene

[wheel interested]

Originally Posted by RickDavis

Perhaps the officers will realize that the WBCCI is NOT the only Airstream game in town before it is too late.

The officers don't care WBCCI is not the only Airstream game in town. They can't rid themselves fast enough of members who would be effective in advocating and implimenting sweeping changes that might endanger and upset their apple cart, or motorhome or what have you. It is the only game in town where they are the big wigs and enjoy many perks and they will fight to retain their leadership. If all the members leave they will still be traveling with their friends with control of the club, international and mid-winter soirees and the treasury. In fact the more that leave the less trouble they will have getting their agendas pushed through and the less criticism they will have to deal with. Game is only over to them when their play ends and it becomes someone else's turn and much is done to pull in and pass off the baton to only the appropriate successors and recommended candidates. We as a club of general members have lost much leverage with the dissolution of the law suit and stand to lose all leverage in bargaining as set out in the revision constitution with the dissolution of the delegates system. We must be vigilant and consider our decisions very judiciously.

Loved the scooter video AZ Streamer and Gene your stages of life remark is sooo funny, but kinda rings true. I was just talking to DH about the convenience of a b-van, guess my time is running out.

Another thing that will not happen is that SOB owners will flock to join the remnant of displaced Airstreamers in a has been single brand club that offers little to new members in the way of fun, friendship and adventure at the international level. I'm with Sal on the point that Good Sam does an all brand rv club much much better and for less!

Nope, leadership is definitely coasting and spending down the club's assets in their farewell tours of duty. They are content to get what they can while the getting is still good enough to suit themselves, even if the glory days and cash cow is getting leaner.

[rideair]

It’s going to happen, sooner or later. Many of the folks that fought it last time are no longer with the club or are in a position where it is tough for them to fight it or are just tired of fighting period.

“SaveWally” is now “SaveWhat?”, “Defend Wally” is now, well don’t get me started, members have left the club who were against it last time, so who’s going to be the ones to stand up and rally the troops?

I know, I’m personally tired of fighting with these “Special Committee” folks that are always trying to fix the club with some new amendment to the WBCCI Constitution to the point now the heck with amending the old one, we’ll just replace it with a New Constitution! Just put every one of the “Special Committee” wants into the "New Constitution" from MOHO, Name Change to killing off the delegates vote it into place and be done with it. Afterwards, those that want to stay belonging to the Airstream Owners Bla Bla Club, with THOR MOHO’s on both sides of them creating even newer rules through a Member Caucus voting on their issues via DMV (Direct Member Voting) will have all the fun they can stand, all 40 of them.

I say, let them enjoy their new found club, friends and MOHO’s

This time around I’m rolling over and playing dead on the issues with them.

YouTube - ‪opossum playing dead #3‬‏

Instead of spending a bunch of time writing emails to the IBT/EC7, going to Perry, GA and standing up to them, getting the word out to other Units, etc… I’m hosting a Caravan up Historic Rt.11, hosting a boondocking rally, hosting a balloon rally, etc… all of which are “Non-WBCCI” events!

If Wally Byam taught me anything, reading about him taught me one thing, you don’t need to be a member of the WBCCI to enjoy your Airstream product.

[Nuvite-F]

Originally Posted by mbmbstreamer

No non-Airstreams!

Hi, Matt,

Earlier in the now-locked "revised constitution" thread you laid out a number of necessary amendments to the revised constitution that would cause you to vote your unit's large number of votes in favor of the revised constitution.

So now, if the motor home amendment, as proposed by the Motor Home Committee, is incorporated in the revised constitution, are you saying your unit will vote against adoption of the revised constitution? (I hope so!)
.

[wkerfoot]

Is the motor home motion coming before the delegates this summer or must it pass the IBT and then be presented to the delegates or member caucus?

Bill

Originally Posted by Nuvite-F

Hi, Matt,

Earlier in the now-locked "revised constitution" thread you laid out a number of necessary amendments to the revised constitution that would cause you to vote your unit's large number of votes in favor of the revised constitution.

So now, if the motor home amendment, as proposed by the Motor Home Committee, is incorporated in the revised constitution, are you saying your unit will vote against adoption of the revised constitution? (I hope so!)
.

[Nuvite-F]

Originally Posted by wkerfoot

Is the motor home motion coming before the delegates this summer or must it pass the IBT and then be presented to the delegates or member caucus?

Who knows? The Delegates Meeting is deuces wild. Any delegate can introduce any amendment he wants.
.