House battery drainage

[coder]

Hey, I have a question: Why don't we all just solve this excessive draw problem using the circuit breaker labeled "INVERT/CONV"?

Here's an interesting little fact about my 2014.5 Interstate van: When manually moving the circuit breaker for the circuit labeled "INVERT/CONV" to the off position, I notice that my Inverter/Charger does not turn off. I can watch TV on battery with the "INVERT/CONV" circuit breaker OFF. In fact, manually moving all the circuit breakers in my van, including the one labeled MAIN, to the off position, does not seem to disable or disconnect ANY part of the electrical system in my van.

How do the circuit breakers in YOUR Interstate work?

As I have said before, I'm working with my state's Attorney General to have the van fixed under my state's Motor Home Lemon Law. The van is either 1) defective, 2) UNSAFE, or both.

[coder]

Originally Posted by coder

From an email from Massey Darre, Technical Support, Dec 3 2015, the load when the Inverter/Charger is OFF is 650 mA...

P.S. That's just the load from the Inverter/Charger, and does not include the Magnum remote display unit. I have not yet tracked down the draw of the remote display, and the draw from just the display might also be significant.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by coder

In fact, manually moving all the circuit breakers in my van, including the one labeled MAIN, to the off position, does not seem to disable or disconnect ANY part of the electrical system in my van.

The circuit breakers DO work when you're on shore power or the generator. ALL of them.

When you're on the inverter, SOME of the circuit breakers work. The one for the air conditioner doesn't, and neither does the one for the microwave, because the inverter will not power either of these appliances. You would need to have portable 120vAC appliances plugged into one of the various outlets in order to notice the breakers working when you shut them off, because all of the breakers powered by the inverter are for the various wall outlets.

The inverter runs on battery power, so the INVERT/CONV breaker doesn't control it, nor does the MAIN breaker. Breakers don't control the 12v side of your electrical system. However, when you're on shore power, the converter portion runs on 120vAC to charge your house batteries. If you were plugged into shore power and you shut off the INVERT/CONV breaker, your batteries would not charge.

I don't know if your Interstate is actually a lemon. But just not knowing how things work in your Interstate is not what would make it a lemon.

[Eberheld]

Is it a good idea to keep the van plugged in to house current to keep batteries charged. Mine is parked in the driveway and the solar is shaded all day. Thanks.

[Titus]

To Boxster1971: Do I understand the that BIM draws .008A *12V = .1W when it is in standby monitoring for the need to charge the coach or chassis battery and for the opportunity to do so? This hardly seems significant in the big picture. And do we really care (within reason) how much current it draws to keep the batteries connected? The available charging current is (hopefully) much more than that current - correct? My sense is that anybody with battery drain problems has bigger problems than the 0.1W of the BIM or the Kenwood - do you agree? Appreciate your information - I too am a (soon to be retired) engineer who is way too curious about things like this...

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by coder

First, and most important, this is Airstream's problem, and Airstream should be the one crawling around an Interstate with a meter to fix this. ....

.... So, the Magnum never should have been wired outside of the van's manual disconnect system. At 300 mA, it will drain the battery bank to 0 in 3 weeks. Why on earth would the user need the Inverter/Charger powered up when the van's electrical systems are disconnected?

I guess Airstream agrees with you and that is why they issued Service Bulletin 164 that adds a relay/solenoid to cut 12V DC power to the Magnum Inverter. SB-164 is covered in another thread in this forum if you haven't read it yet. Thanks to Mcrider for posting it.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f240...aw-144101.html

For Airstream it could be cheaper to add the SB-164 solenoid rather than adding the inverter to the disconnect switch. But it is a silly solution. I assume Airstream is wiring this new solenoid to be normally OFF so it does not drain batteries when the inverter is not needed. But then it will require more battery power when the inverter is needed.

When I did my inverter mod I wired the inverter and house power through a new Blue Sea 500 Amp disconnect switch. This new switch disables all 12V DC house power, except for two items. One is the BIM to keep Sprinter starter battery charged. The other is the Solar charging system that is on a separate switch.

Best of luck in your Lemon quest.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Titus

To Boxster1971: Do I understand the that BIM draws .008A *12V = .1W when it is in standby monitoring for the need to charge the coach or chassis battery and for the opportunity to do so? This hardly seems significant in the big picture. And do we really care (within reason) how much current it draws to keep the batteries connected? The available charging current is (hopefully) much more than that current - correct? My sense is that anybody with battery drain problems has bigger problems than the 0.1W of the BIM or the Kenwood - do you agree? Appreciate your information - I too am a (soon to be retired) engineer who is way too curious about things like this...

I agree. The new data just posted by coder sheds new light on the real problem of the Magnum inverter and why Airstream issued SB-164.

As Lew Faber has told us many times the best solution is a total battery disconnect switch. That's what I have now and I'm happy with my new setup.

- - Mike
2013 Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[lewster]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

I agree. The new data just posted by coder sheds new light on the real problem of the Magnum inverter and why Airstream issued SB-164.

As Lew Faber has told us many times the best solution is a total battery disconnect switch. That's what I have now and I'm happy with my new setup.

- - Mike
2013 Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

Yep! A total 12VDC system disconnect is the best way to preserve your batteries. Having just completed my ABYC Master Marine Electrician certification course this past Friday, I learned that in order to achieve the stated rating on those marine-type disconnect switches, the proper sized cabling is a MUST!

That means 4/0 AWG entering a switch like the Blue Sea Systems M-class red rotary switch in order to achieve the full 300 amp continuous rating.

BTW, if any of the folks in that class, from yacht surveyors to working marine techs saw how RVs are wired….they would have thrown up!!!

[Marks71]

This is the first I have seen of the SB (not being an authorized Airstream service center). I educate ALL of my clients to keep the inverter OFF (meaning that there will be NO 120VAC COMING FROM THE BATTERIES THE INVERTER AT ANY TIME) and to only put the inverter to the 'ON' position when 120VAC is desired when off-grid and then to immediately TURN OFF THE INVERTER.

This will remove any parasitic draw from the inverter as it searched for the minimum 5 watt load. It has NO EFFECT on the charging section of the Magnum when shore power is present.

I've tried to follow this entire thread, but it frequently goes beyond my comprehension of electrical systems. I"ve pasted the above partial quote from a Lewster post in an earlier thread to set up this question: I am in the habit of MOSTLY leaving the inverter off, except when I need to watch TV (very seldom) or use the outlets (more frequently, but definitely not when stored). DOESN'T THIS ALMOST COMPLETELY SOLVE MY PROBLEM OF MAGNUM PARASITIC DRAW WITHOUT RESORTING TO A NEW DISCONNECT SWITCH OR OTHER SOLUTIONS?

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Marks71

This is the first I have seen of the SB (not being an authorized Airstream service center). I educate ALL of my clients to keep the inverter OFF (meaning that there will be NO 120VAC COMING FROM THE BATTERIES THE INVERTER AT ANY TIME) and to only put the inverter to the 'ON' position when 120VAC is desired when off-grid and then to immediately TURN OFF THE INVERTER.

This will remove any parasitic draw from the inverter as it searched for the minimum 5 watt load. It has NO EFFECT on the charging section of the Magnum when shore power is present.

I've tried to follow this entire thread, but it frequently goes beyond my comprehension of electrical systems. I"ve pasted the above partial quote from a Lewster post in an earlier thread to set up this question: I am in the habit of MOSTLY leaving the inverter off, except when I need to watch TV (very seldom) or use the outlets (more frequently, but definitely not when stored). DOESN'T THIS ALMOST COMPLETELY SOLVE MY PROBLEM OF MAGNUM PARASITIC DRAW WITHOUT RESORTING TO A NEW DISCONNECT SWITCH OR OTHER SOLUTIONS?

Just turning your Magnum inverter off does not stop the 0.3A (300ma) it draws whenever connected to a 12V battery. To stop this problem get your Airstream dealer to install SB-164. I'll bet Airstream will make a design change to eliminate the Magnum drain by either installing the solenoid in production or wiring the inverter through the disconnect switch on new models.

I drove my Interstate to work today (I’m only semi-retired) and left the disconnect switch on so the house batteries would eventually drop below 13.0V after sunset, this then causes the BIM to turn OFF. If the house batteries stay at 13.0V the BIM keeps the batteries connected and then transfers current to the Sprinter battery. Then I confirmed the basic parasitic drain is 0.5A (500mA). This is consistent with the data I have gather as summarized in the attached table. This table is only accurate to 1mA as things like the CO and Smoke Alarms only draw 22microA. I’m now satisfied I understand the parasitic current drain on the Interstates that can drain your house batteries in a few days with everything turned off. With the disconnect switch installed by Airstream the Kenwood and Magnum inverter drains remain for a total of 0.4A (400mA). Airstream has now issued SB-164 to fully cut off the Magnum inverter.

Enjoy,
- - Mike
2013 Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[jim.waters]

This thread and the one on SB-164 have been a great help. As I understand the solenoid to be installed per SB-164, the Kenwood is still going to be draining the batteries. I have been disconnecting the batteries until getting around to installing a battery disconnect switch this weekend. If my comment on the Kenwood is correct, without the battery disconnect switch, the batteries will still be run down, just slower. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[coder]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

If the house batteries stay at 13.0V the BIM keeps the batteries connected and then transfers current to the Sprinter battery.

The BIM is a little more complicated than that. I've attached the manual, which you may not have seen. If the rest of the electronics in the van weren't such a disaster, after moving the Magnum to the disconnect switch and moving the Kenwood to the Mercedes auxiliary battery, the next thing I'd do would be to put the BIM on a manual switch. The BIM operation is incompatible with proper maintenance of the Lifeline batteries for those of us who store the vans unplugged.

Then, even if you fix the Magnum/Kenwood/BIM problems, you still have the Atkinson controller voltage problem.

[coder]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

The circuit breakers DO work when you're on shore power or the generator.

I'll accept that you are correct about circuit breakers. RV electrical systems are not my area of expertise.

[coder]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

I don't know if your Interstate is actually a lemon...

This thread is too useful to get bogged down in Washington State's Motor Vehicle Lemon Law, so let's drop it in this thread. The law defines a "lemon", however, and my Interstate unquestionably qualifies. All three circumstances, any one of which is sufficient to trigger the law's protections, apply to my Interstate, including out of service 30 calendar days or more for repair.

The repeatedly failing carbon monoxide alarm, burned out main circuit board on the generator, failed front TV, the leak, solar that produced zero current all summer, and all the little stuff (cabinet carpets, headphone jacks, etc.). It all adds up.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by coder

The BIM is a little more complicated than that. I've attached the manual, which you may not have seen. If the rest of the electronics in the van weren't such a disaster, after moving the Magnum to the disconnect switch and moving the Kenwood to the Mercedes auxiliary battery, the next thing I'd do would be to put the BIM on a manual switch. The BIM operation is incompatible with proper maintenance of the Lifeline batteries for those of us who store the vans unplugged.

Then, even if you fix the Magnum/Kenwood/BIM problems, you still have the Atkinson controller voltage problem.

Thanks coder - your info has been very helpful. I'm working on some changes that I think will give me an indicator light to tell when the BIM connects the batteries and add a manual cutoff switch. I haven't got all the parts I need yet so that will have to wait for a future post after I get it modified. I agree that the logic of the BIM isn't great when combined with the nearly useless Atkinson Solar Controller. With my 400 watts of solar and a Blue Sky MPPT controller it does keep the Sprinter battery topped off all the time. This works great for my outside parking spot. When I'm home I usually only drive my van once or twice a week.

Regarding your lemon - you could always start a new thread once you get it resolved with Airstream. From what you have posted it does sound like you have had more than a normal amounts of problems.


- - Mike
2013 Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by jim.waters

This thread and the one on SB-164 have been a great help. As I understand the solenoid to be installed per SB-164, the Kenwood is still going to be draining the batteries. I have been disconnecting the batteries until getting around to installing a battery disconnect switch this weekend. If my comment on the Kenwood is correct, without the battery disconnect switch, the batteries will still be run down, just slower. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Jim - I can't be sure how Airstream is wiring in the SB-164 solenoid since it looked like the posting of SB-164 was only the first page and not details on how to make the connections. If they wire it through the battery disconnect then when the disconnect is turned OFF both the Magnum inverter and Kenwood radio will not be draining the house batteries. The problematic Kenwood power comes from the 12V DC fuse #2 (7.5A) that puts 12V on the ignition wire to the Kenwood. The other primary 12V for the Kenwood comes from a 15A thermal circuit breaker (CB) located inside the electrical compartment under the lounge seat near the back side of the disconnect switch. That thermal CB is always powered if the batteries are connected. With the disconnect OFF the Kenwood is only fully powered when the Sprinter key is ON; the way Kenwood designed the radio.

From what I can tell Airstream's SB-164 has the potential to eliminate nearly all of the house battery drain problems and let the solar panel keep the batteries topped off.

Hope this helps,

- - Mike
2013 Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[lewster]

Just remember that a simple 1/4 turn of an adequately rated marine battery disconnect switch will remove ALL parasitic loads from the batteries and isolate them.


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center
Lifeline Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by lewster

Just remember that a simple 1/4 turn of an adequately rated marine battery disconnect switch will remove ALL parasitic loads from the batteries and isolate them....

That's exactly what I did. It would be best if Airstream did the same thing. Attached file is a diagram of my 12V DC coach system with the new battery-inverter upgrade.

- - Mike

[Boxster1971]

After I uploaded the diagram above I realized it was missing the thermal CB's. Here is a better diagram.

[lewster]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

After I uploaded the diagram above I realized it was missing the thermal CB's. Here is a better diagram.

NICE PRINT!!!!

Did you install but not show the iPN-PRO remote from Blue Sky and the ME-RC remote from Magnum? Battery temp sensors for both?

I know showing them would mess up the great wire flow in the diagram………(like the negative from the combiner box to the charge control)….. just checking????

Love the 'ice cube' fuses too. Most folks don't even know they exist….