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Old 10-23-2015, 03:10 PM   #21
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With the battery disconnect switch turned off in my 2014 Interstate Ext, the batteries will discharge from fully charged in no more than three days. I know that the refrigerator bypasses the disconnect switch, but it is turned off too. Any thoughts of where to start looking?

I've read about the buss bar with four circuits, only one being the disconnect switch. Starting there to determine which circuit is drawing amperage has been my thought. However, I don't know how to get to the buss bar. Any help?
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:56 PM   #22
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I have a 2013 lounge extended. So the following may or may not apply to you. Everything in mine goes through the AI battery cutoff except:
1) Invertor (I have added my own cut-off for it)
2) battery isolation manager (very small current draw, I am told)
3) fresh and grey water tank heat pads (They are power pigs, but I've never needed them)
4) radio (also powered by chassis battery when ignition is on)
5) Solar controller -supposed have something in it to keep it from being a drain at night)
6) lounge motor (no current draw if not using it)
The last four above and the 12V fuse panel get power from a buss bar on the back of the thermal fuses. You can't see this buss bar and thermal fuse assembly until you remove the lounge seat.

The refrigerator in mine (in 12V mode) does not work with the cut-off in the off position. I also have no draw from the propane, CO, or smoke detectors, antenna booster, propane solenoid when the cut-off is off.

If yours is wired the same as mine there would seem to be no way to draw down the batteries in 4 days - even with only 50 W of solar (which I once had). If your problem were happening the way mine is wired I'd think that it has to be a problem with the battery(ies).

My only problem (back when I had 50W solar) was keeping ahead of the refrigerator when the cut-off was on and all other switchable things (antenna booster, propane solenoid) was off.

If you are at all the curious type (I'm an engineer, so it comes with the territory) I'd highly recommending removing the lounge seat and taking a bunch of notes. Inspect all the myriad of fuses (some are really funky looking) and buy or more of each type as a spare. Do the same for the fuse block attached to the + terminal of the chassis battery, which is under the drivers floor panel. I've had the BIM not work (engine alternator would not charge coach batteries) because one of these latter hidden fuses blew. (Do all of this while the wife is away (if she's not also an engineer) or she is sure to freak out.)
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Old 10-23-2015, 05:01 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by felixkagi View Post
Depends ......................., on the later 2013's no need to lift any seats or such, remove the carpet piece (velcro) under the seat, looking at it on the right. You'll see the black box with a steel cover, 4 Philips screws. Remove those and you see the batteries inside a tray.



Disconnect the negative from chassis battery below the drivers seat first before pulling out the tray carefully. Then remove the pos & neg cabels (2 because you have two 12V batteries in parallel). I usually slip a piece of clear nylon tubing over the positive cables so they don't short out anything against the ground because you might still have some power from the solar panel



Then do your battery test.

That easy to access battery box is only on the Extended Lounge models starting in 2013. Then starting with the 2015 Grand Tour model they moved the batteries under the van behind the driver's side rear wheels. All the 2016 models I saw at recent Hersey RV show had the batteries under the van.


- - Mike
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Old 10-23-2015, 06:29 PM   #24
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The batteries are new, so that should not be the problem. The same problem existed with the old batteries and the dealer told me they were the causing the problem. Obviously they didn't know what they were talking about.

I'll lift the lounge seat and investigate further. Hopefully I will be able to identify the circuit on the buss bar that is drawing current, then go downstream from there. Any more suggestions will certainly be appreciated.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:07 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by jim.waters View Post
With the battery disconnect switch turned off in my 2014 Interstate Ext, the batteries will discharge from fully charged in no more than three days. I know that the refrigerator bypasses the disconnect switch, but it is turned off too. Any thoughts of where to start looking?
Try looking on the 120vAC side of things. If the inverter/charger is on and there's no external source of power other than solar, it will default to inverter mode— so if the breakers are left on, your 120vAC circuits are energized, and one or more of them could be the cause. Not sure what— if anything— you might be leaving on, but it's easy to overlook the AC circuits when you're looking for drains on the batteries.
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Old 10-24-2015, 12:18 PM   #26
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Inverter

Thanks Protagonist! I will get the batteries up to 100% and make sure it is not in "inverter" mode. That sure would be an easy fix. I'm learning that many things about the electrical system are not intuitive. Even though I've owned boats, lots of this is new to me. I'll report back the results.
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Old 10-24-2015, 01:06 PM   #27
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These "Interstate House Battery Drainage" threads are really annoying. Someone posts that his batteries are dying. Everyone responds that, oh, maybe he left his lights on. Not helpful.

Can we just tell the guy his van is defective? That it was designed and built with a defect that his dealer cannot find nor fix? That he is going to have to plug in his van for several hours each week, or buy and install his own battery disconnect switch? That it is probably a design defect and not a sample defect, because many owners all have the same problem?

I own one of these defective Interstates. When it's unhappy, most of the time, it drains probably half of an amp from the batteries all the time. The entire bank's capacity would be gone in about 2 weeks, with everything TURNED OFF. Some weeks I go check on it and the batteries are fine. Most weeks I go check on it and it needs 2 hours of charging.

My van is still under warranty. If my dealer cannot find and fix this problem, I'll use my state's RV Lemon Law and Airstream can buy the van back from me. The van is spec'd to draw less than 0.01 amps unplugged. In a month unplugged, the batteries should lose 2% internal and another 2% from phantom (BIM draws 0.008 A, Kenwood draws 0.001 A, and everything else is much less or is disconnected), not 50% in a week.
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Old 10-24-2015, 01:44 PM   #28
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Can we just tell the guy his van is defective? That it was designed and built with a defect that his dealer cannot find nor fix?
No. We can't. When I first bought my Interstate, I would have agreed with you, because I was more than half convinced that mine was defective. But through diligent research and experimentation, I discovered where my van's phantom draws were, and what I was doing wrong. I've had my van for almost four years since then, and haven't had any problem at all with the house batteries since my first month of ownership. And I'm still on my original Discover Energy batteries that Airstream installed before they switched to Lifelines, that were depleted stony dead not once but three times (twice by me, once by the dealer).

Yes, your particular Interstate might have a defect. Or it might not. But an unrepairable design defect should not be the first assumption made by anyone on the AirForums who wants to help a fellow Airstreamer. We have an obligation to assume that the problem is identifiable— and repairable— through the application of our collective experience, unless or until it is proven otherwise.
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Old 10-24-2015, 03:24 PM   #29
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I've had my van for almost four years since then, and haven't had any problem at all with the house batteries since my first month of ownership.
Protagonist, it's nice that your van does not have the defect.

You've been on the forums long enough, though, to know that many posters have confirmed their vans draw 50x more current from the batteries than Airstream specifies. Owners have posted that they are losing 10-12 AH per day, or have measured 0.4A to 0.5A continuous current draw, and you've posted to those threads. We're not all accidently leaving our inverters on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protagonist View Post
Yes, your particular Interstate might have a defect. Or it might not.
Yeah, the van has a problem. My van has been in, so far, twice to fix this problem. The first time, the dealer told me the batteries are fine. The second time, the dealer told me the charging system is fine. The next time the dealer fails to fix this, I'll take it up with my state's attorney general. The service appointment is scheduled.

P.S. I forgot the Sunexplorer display. BIM draws 0.008 A, Kenwood draws 0.001 A, the CO and LPG detectors draw 0.0005 between them, and the Sunexplorer display draws a ridiculous 0.015 A. Something in my van and many others is using 50x the current than it should be.
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Old 10-24-2015, 03:32 PM   #30
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My van is still under warranty. If my dealer cannot find and fix this problem, I'll use my state's RV Lemon Law and Airstream can buy the van back from me.
Good luck with that.
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Old 10-24-2015, 03:51 PM   #31
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Good luck with that.
WA state's Motor Home Lemon Law

I haven't talked to a lawyer yet, but the law covers the Airstream portion of the motor home, and covers defects that substantially impair the use of the motor home or diminish its resale value. I think unable to maintain the electrical system qualifies. All the other criteria are met, such as written demand to fix, subject to repair 3 or more times, or 30 days or more out of service.
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Old 10-24-2015, 04:28 PM   #32
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WA state's Motor Home Lemon Law

I haven't talked to a lawyer yet, but the law covers the Airstream portion of the motor home, and covers defects that substantially impair the use of the motor home or diminish its resale value. I think unable to maintain the electrical system qualifies. All the other criteria are met, such as written demand to fix, subject to repair 3 or more times, or 30 days or more out of service.
If memory serves me, another poster recently joined this forum who said he had bought his AI after it was returned by its initial owner under a lemon law. I don't recall that he ever stated (or even knew) what that owner's lemon-y issue had been, but apparently some of those appeals are successful. I do recall that he was having battery issues.
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Old 10-24-2015, 04:45 PM   #33
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Am I the only one with a dinky 50 watt solar panel that does not plug it in to shore power and it keeps the house batteries fully charged?
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Old 10-24-2015, 05:35 PM   #34
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Am I the only one with a dinky 50 watt solar panel that does not plug it in to shore power and it keeps the house batteries fully charged?
I'm looking forward to hearing responses to this question. There are so many battery-related threads now that I can't keep them straight in my head or who said what in which one. It begs the question as to when "Sprinter and B Van Forum" is going to get sub-headings, because with 1,200+ threads, it sure as heck needs them.

There was another poster in another thread (?) who mentioned that their original 50 W panel got the charging job done, but who also described him/her/themself(ves) as "currently driving cross country" or something similar.

Well, shoot, if they are actively under power, it's a bit more tricky than attributing success to the solar alone, isn't it? Because their alternator is doing some of that heavy lifting. Or maybe even most of it, depending on operating conditions.
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Old 10-24-2015, 05:46 PM   #35
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Am I the only one with a dinky 50 watt solar panel that does not plug it in to shore power and it keeps the house batteries fully charged?
Nope. I have a dinky 50w solar panel and no place to plug into shore power at home. My four-year-old house batteries are not Lifelines. My inverter/charger is a TrippLite, not a Magnum. All strikes against. And yet I still manage to keep my house batteries fully charged in storage by making sure the batteries are already fully charged when I park it (using the generator if necessary to top them up before putting the van away), and then shutting off everything that I can shut off in between uses, including the main disconnect, the 120v breakers, and all of the devices that bypass one or both.
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Old 10-24-2015, 06:22 PM   #36
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House battery drainage

Quote:
Originally Posted by coder View Post
These "Interstate House Battery Drainage" threads are really annoying....

...... My van is still under warranty. If my dealer cannot find and fix this problem, I'll use my state's RV Lemon Law and Airstream can buy the van back from me. The van is spec'd to draw less than 0.01 amps unplugged. In a month unplugged, the batteries should lose 2% internal and another 2% from phantom (BIM draws 0.008 A, Kenwood draws 0.001 A, and everything else is much less or is disconnected), not 50% in a week.

Coder - I don't know where it's specified by Airstream that the parasitic drain on the batteries is only 0.01A? Can you enlighten us on where you found this specification? I've read all the specifications on the various 12V components used in my 2013 Interstate and the parasitic drain calculates to between 0.4-0.5A. I have a shunt current meter on my batteries as part of the Blue Sky solar controller I installed last year and have measured the drain at 0.4A constant. The house disconnect only eliminates the small current, less than 0.01A, supplied to the propane detector. Your current for the BIM of 0.008A is not correct. The BIM data sheet, available for the Precision Circuits Inc. web site states it draws 4 watts, at 12V that is 0.333A.
http://www.precisioncircuitsinc.com/...mp-continuous/

Last year I added 400 watts of solar panels to my Interstate. This solved what I consider a design weakness of the Airstream electrical system in the Interstates. They install components that drain the batteries at a significant rate of 0.4A and then only install a 50 or 100 watt solar panel to maintain the batteries. It's not a defect, just poor design.

I'm now working on a battery and inverter upgrade and have become very familiar with every circuit in my Interstate. I wanted to eliminate the significant drain from the BIM, but determined the electronics are hard wired to the house battery. I could install a switch that would shut down the BIM, but that would then isolate the batteries so the Sprinter alternator would not charge the house batteries and the solar would not charge my Sprinter battery. For the few time I would need to totally isolate my batteries it's easy to just disconnect the negative terminal right on the battery.


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Old 10-24-2015, 06:40 PM   #37
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Your current for the BIM of 0.008A is not correct. The BIM data sheet, available for the Precision Circuits Inc. web site states it draws 4 watts, at 12V that is 0.333A.
The BIM uses 4 watts only when one of the battery banks is being charged. When the BIM detects a charging voltage on either side, the switch combining the banks is closed. The BIM uses 4 watts to keep the switch closed when the system is being charged, which is an inconsequential current compared to the charging current.

The BIM standby current is 0.008 A. When the van is parked with all systems off and disconnected, the BIM should not be drawing 4 watts.
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Old 10-24-2015, 08:48 PM   #38
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There was another poster in another thread (?) who mentioned that their original 50 W panel got the charging job done, but who also described him/her/themself(ves) as "currently driving cross country" or something similar.
That was me, and I was on a cross-country trip at the time - but now back home. Let me qualify things a bit:
I live in a generally sunny part of the country, so the 50W panel usually gets abundant sunlight, and I see anything up to 3.5 Amps displayed on the Sunexplorer display. That is enough to keep my batteries charged, even with the refrigerator running.
But on the trip to Missouri, lots of cloud in places and the display would then indicate perhaps 2 Amps.
In Missouri where we were visiting friends, the AI was parked outside for 3 weeks with the battery disconnect enabled; I checked the displays twice daily: still good solar amperage although in the late afternoon when the sun was lower, it showed only 0.7-0.4 Amps. The batteries were down to about 85-80% by the mornings. So I'm confident that 50W panel can maintain the batteries for my own circumstances. If I lived elsewhere things may be different.
One other important qualification: when at home, the AI is parked in the garage and always plugged into a standard household socket. And that's been the case since it was new. I also know my AI was never sitting on the dealers lot for long before I collected it, and when it was sitting there, it was in the sun. So I know the batteries have been carefully maintained since new, and never allowed to deplete below 50%. Without healthy batteries you cannot expect to have a full battery capacity and it will always seem like they are draining quickly.
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Old 10-24-2015, 10:06 PM   #39
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Coder - I don't know where it's specified by Airstream that the parasitic drain on the batteries is only 0.01A? Can you enlighten us on where you found this specification?
From my notes from the Airstream manual:
CO detector 0.00025 A
LPG detector 0.00025 A
Kenwood 0.001 A
Magnum Inverter 0.650 A
I'll look around and see if I can find which Airstream manual. I remember it was in an unusual place, perhaps in the Camping section instead of Electrical. Notice that these numbers from Airstream aren't quite right. For example, the CO detector manual says it will last for 7 days on a 9V battery. A run-of-the-mill 9V alkaline has about 600 mAh, so the Airstream spec'd current is probably a tenth of the true current. The 650 mA for the Magnum is NOT standby, and the MMS1012 manual says the inverter uses 19 W no load, which is closer to 400 mA than 650. Etc.

The Sunexplorer display and controller use 15 mA and <= 7 mA, from the technical manuals for those products.

The Lifeline 2% self-discharge rate is from the Lifeline Batteries corporate website, on the page for the GPL-24T specs.

The information about the BIM is from an email from George L Cepynsky of Precision Circuits Inc, 7/27/2015, in response to my emailed request for information, who writes, "We are running 0.008 amps in stand-by mode." He confirms that the BIM does not use 4 W all the time regardless of the state of the relay.

Add it all up and my batteries should last several months, not just a week. Some Interstate vans have this problem, and some don't. I suspect it's a combination of defective or marginal parts coupled with bad design or poorly spec'd parts. If your Interstate van is plugged in all the time, you may have this problem and never know it.
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Old 10-24-2015, 10:34 PM   #40
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From my notes from the Airstream manual:
CO detector 0.00025 A
LPG detector 0.00025 A
Kenwood 0.001 A
Magnum Inverter 0.650 A
.

This information is in the 2015 and 2016 Interstate User Manuals in the Maintenance section. We all know - but you may not if you're new to Airstream - that the manuals are hopelessly inaccurate and out of date. And we've generally come to accept it even though it's totally unacceptable. If you look around in that section, you'll even find references to things like checking the electrolyte level, etc.
Don't make any judgements based on the Manual!


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