Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg, Audi Q7 owners

[drew06371]

Originally Posted by ARF

Canam built a custom hitch because they wanted the hitch ball as close to the rear axle as possible. Downside - my Audi Q5's rear bumper got lots of dings.

I am hoping to have a bit more clearance between the hitch ball and rear bumper on the Cayenne, possibly even be able to open the rear hatch while hitched up. The EAZ lift comes with a 12" shank. Do you have enough rear bumper clearance with that?

Yes, with the rake of the rear hatch on the cayenne I am able to open the hatch while hooked up, even when the trailer is at a decent angle. Also, I’m able to turn the wheel at full lock while moving forward without having the trailer touch anything.

I’ll take some pics this weekend since I’ll be out towing.

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Getmp3s

Do you get pulled over by law enforcement for not using tow mirrors? i've never heard of that - is there some law that requires them? the mirrors on my Q7 are so large from factory i can see all the way down the side of my 27" TT so didn't see the point of the tow mirrors, had not considered that there might be some law about it though.

In California you just need to be able to see the rear of your trailer & it's wheels in the side mirrors - so if your rig combo allows for that - then you're good in CA, but the laws in other states & provinces may vary.

Back in 2013 while towing with a rented 2012 Nissan Pathfinder, while at a rest stop I was asked by a "Chipper" (CHP) also stopped there if my mirrors allowed that required visibility, & he even asked to sit in the SUV to look for himself, & said something along the lines of "I'll be danged!"


Caution for others reading - your trailer &/or TV may vary!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Hi ARF

You should not need it on the E Hybrid. It will have the new receiver on it.

Which Airstream are you towing?

Andy

Hi Andy -

What model year for the new stronger Cayenne hitch receiver that you're referring to start production?

Thanx!
Tom
///////

[drew06371]

Here are a few pictures showing the clearance between the hatch and the tongue jack while fully connected. The hatch is in the same position for each pic

This is as close as the hatch will get to the jack while opening as long as the trailer is anywhere close to straight.

2014 Cayenne without air suspension
Eaz lift hitch
2017 23FB

[ARF]

Thanks Drew! I will just order a whole new EAZ-Lift setup for my Cayenne. I just have to figure out the right model for my 27FB. I ordered a tongue weight scale so I can get the correct model. I recently swapped my AGM batteries for LiPo so the TT tongue weight may have changed a bit since CanAm set it up.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by ARF

Thanks Drew! I will just order a whole new EAZ-Lift setup for my Cayenne. I just have to figure out the right model for my 27FB. I ordered a tongue weight scale so I can get the correct model. I recently swapped my AGM batteries for LiPo so the TT tongue weight may have changed a bit since CanAm set it up.

I use the Eaz Elite system with 1000lb bars on my 2022 Globetrotter 27FB Twin as recommended by the towing experts at CanAm RV (Airstream dealer in Ontario, Canada).

The 1000lb bars are perfect for the 27FB along with the dual Husky friction sway bars.

I am towing with a 2016 Cayenne S.

[Bier]

Have any of you guys ever relocated the spare to reduce tongue weight? I know there are a couple products available that will relocate to the underbelly back by the axles but they require doing a 3" lift which I'd prefer to not do:
https://airkrafters.com/product/tyrak/
https://balrvproducts.com/product/hide-a-spare/

I've been told I can also simple go without a spare, but I'm a bit chicken so would also rather not do that.

Anyone ever rigged up a way to mount it to the rear of the trailer where the license plate is so you can still have access to the bumper storage? Or are there other places folks have stashed it?

Thanks

[Revolver]

Hey guys,

Long-time lurker and first-time poster here. I have a 2016 Cayenne S with coil springs and I'm looking to refresh the suspension as the shocks are starting to take more time to damp than I like.

There really aren't a lot of options so I'm thinking of going 1 of 2 ways; either get Bilstein B8 shocks only and re-use my existing springs, or get the Bilstein B12 Pro-Kit which uses the B8 shocks and lowering springs that lower the ride height by 25-35mm.

The B12 kit appeals to me for improved handling and I don't think the decreased ride height would be a problem in everyday driving, but I wonder if I would be better off at stock height for towing to have the extra suspension travel. If anyone has any thoughts on this topic I would appreciate the feedback

Thanks in advance for any responses.

[Flathead1984]

Originally Posted by Ohiobrits

Knuff,

I'm also towing with a Cayenne Diesel / 27FB. I get about 17 mpg on moderately hilly terrain at 65. I do not have a good value for mpg on the flat but expect 1 or 2 more. I got 15 mpg on a recent quick run from DC to Ohio over some moderately hilly terrain at 70+ (I have upgraded to LT tires and 16" wheels). Unhitched I get mid 20s in town and close to 30 at highway speeds.

It pulls very nicely even with 7000+ lbs back there, can accelerate handily up hills and pulls strongly from a standing start if the need arises. Having said that, unhitched after a stint of towing it feels like a go-cart .

Brakes (as you will know) at over 14" on the front with 6 piston calipers are fantastic. Bigger than many 3/4 and 1 tons. I use a Tekonsha P3 set at 6V and Boost 2. That seems to be the sweet spot for me. 6V is about a high as I can go without locking up if I do a (practice) emergency stop on a clear road from 40mph or so.

Engine oil temp as you note will go up a bit especially if left in auto. Normal for me is around 215. I have seen in the 230's often, 245 once or twice on longish climbs. Manually shifting to a lower gear quickly brings it down (higher oil pressure, more flow, less resident time in the hot areas). I have driven in Sport mode a bit but have decided Auto is fine except when in an extended climb where I feel a lower gear would be better.

I have done a Can-Am style hitch mod and also did reduce the tongue weight from 900lbs from the factory to about 650lbs by moving the batteries to the rear and removing the AS spare. I use a ProPride but did tow for a while with an Eaz-lift and 2 x Husky friction sway control units which was a nice setup.

ProPride setup is with an inverted stinger, 2 holes at the top and 4 washers. WD is either 5.5 or 6" depending on load in the AS and TV.

I have run the setup over a CAT scale several times with a loaded trailer but no passengers. All looks good.

I tow with 2 passengers and a dog, most all of the cargo is in the AS.

Can't believe I was 50 / 50 on the Cayenne or a 2500 GMC. The Cayenne is by far the better choice for me. A truck would have been a big mistake....for me.

souul



nds like foe perfect set

[propchef]

Originally Posted by Revolver

Hey guys,

Long-time lurker and first-time poster here. I have a 2016 Cayenne S with coil springs and I'm looking to refresh the suspension as the shocks are starting to take more time to damp than I like.

There really aren't a lot of options so I'm thinking of going 1 of 2 ways; either get Bilstein B8 shocks only and re-use my existing springs, or get the Bilstein B12 Pro-Kit which uses the B8 shocks and lowering springs that lower the ride height by 25-35mm.

The B12 kit appeals to me for improved handling and I don't think the decreased ride height would be a problem in everyday driving, but I wonder if I would be better off at stock height for towing to have the extra suspension travel. If anyone has any thoughts on this topic I would appreciate the feedback

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Are you a member over at Rennlist or other Porsche forum? There may be a few there that use this combo.

Personally, if you're using it to tow, I wouldn't go lower but I'd consider a stiffer spring rate and matching damper.

[Bier]

Been meaning to post this for a bit even though it probably is a tad on the "preaching to the choir" side.

As there are often many posts asking about weights/payloads/etc., I thought I would share my specific numbers for reference in case folks who aren't SUV owners were curious or for folks who are thinking about towing with a German SUV and don't know margins/etc.

Rig - 2021 Audi SQ7 towing a 2022 25' FBT Flying Cloud
Occupants - Myself (~200 lbs.) and wife (~120 lbs.)
Stuff in Audi - Blackstone grill, Yeti cooler, various electronics, cases for hitch and torsion bars, other random items for day of driving
Hitch/Brake Controller - Eaz Elite 1000, 2 sway controls (Husky I think), custom shank made by CanAm, Tekonsha wired controller
Audi door sticker - GVWR 6944, GAWR Front 3527, GAWR Rear 3968, Avail Payload 1157, Curb Weight 5787 (as a side note this does not seem accurate according to CAT scale), 770 hitch weight
CAT Scale Readings when hitched - Steer Axle 3200, Drive Axle 3320, Trailer Axle 5800 (adding steer and drive axle together looks like Audi hitched up curb weight is approx. 6520)
CAT Scale Readings for unhitched Audi - Steer Axle 3120, Drive Axle 2780

My takeaways from this:
Fine on Axle loads (under by 300+ front and 600+ rear)
Fine on GVWR of Audi (under by 420)
Fine on payload (from GVWR)
Fine on tongue weight (under by approx. 150)

Your numbers may vary, but wanted to show with numbers that yes a German SUV is fine according to every metric I've seen the tow police throw around (and this is not even getting into the advantages of the SUV over pickups in terms of handling, better brakes, etc.). This all being said there are some disadvantages about being a SUV for sure, but that's for a different post some other time.

[BayouBiker]

Very good post Bier. Definitely the weight numbers are quite important for assessing tow capacity performance. However other numbers, not the least of which is understeer gradient are as or more important and unfortunately are very difficult to obtain and understand. These sporty SUV's in general and yours in particular are low risk for modern Airstreams 25' and under at US highway speeds, but risk of oversteer and sway climbs significantly with heavier and longer Airstreams. It is unfortunate that many here seem to ignore this physical reality.

[ealmasy]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

However other numbers, not the least of which is understeer gradient are as or more important and unfortunately are very difficult to obtain and understand. These sporty SUV's in general and yours in particular are low risk for modern Airstreams 25' and under at US highway speeds, but risk of oversteer and sway climbs significantly with heavier and longer Airstreams. It is unfortunate that many here seem to ignore this physical reality.

And...this is why there is no point trying to convince the Truck Brigade that SUVs are a valid tow vehicle choice. No matter what you say or how much data you present, there will always be yet another reason why you're a fool to tow with something other than a big-ass pickup.

[JetstreamAS]

Originally Posted by ealmasy

Some suvs are a valid tow vehicle choice for certain trailers under a specific length and weight (TW and GVWR)

ftfy.

[BayouBiker]

Ealmasy, I have not seen very many in the "Truck Brigade" who argue any vehicle of any kind that is tasked with towing below its capability is anything but a valid tow vehicle choice for that situation. A bicycle or motorbike can be a fantastic tow vehicle for the right set-up. Thus, I fear you have maligned a group falsely.

Here is a short list of towing criteria. Point out which of these is invalid in your mind. Then tell me how I invented a criteria in the quoted paragraph that you seem to think is a "gotcha" reason designed to disadvantage non-trucks.

1. Must be able to accelerate and decelerate the combination under all expected road conditions in the target market without excessive wear or damage or failure.

2. Must be able to perform and handle adequately to safely negotiate expected road conditions without being a hazard or risk to any compliant vehicle on the road including ones own.

3. Must remain inherently stable for all expected road conditions so as to not spontaneously go out of control and create a hazard to oneself or others.

4. Must be able to accomplish 1-3 while also carrying all of the owners desired passengers and gear.

The reality is nobody here has yet to provide data that definitively supports that short, light performance SUV's meet all four of these criteria for 26-30 foot US travel trailer configurations. It is not because it would be difficult to conduct tests that would confirm this, as I have done these tests a number of times. So why doesn't anyone do these tests on these European SUV's and provide the data?

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Bier

Been meaning to post this for a bit even though it probably is a tad on the "preaching to the choir" side.

As there are often many posts asking about weights/payloads/etc., I thought I would share my specific numbers for reference in case folks who aren't SUV owners were curious or for folks who are thinking about towing with a German SUV and don't know margins/etc.

Rig - 2021 Audi SQ7 towing a 2022 25' FBT Flying Cloud
Occupants - Myself (~200 lbs.) and wife (~120 lbs.)
Stuff in Audi - Blackstone grill, Yeti cooler, various electronics, cases for hitch and torsion bars, other random items for day of driving
Hitch/Brake Controller - Eaz Elite 1000, 2 sway controls (Husky I think), custom shank made by CanAm, Tekonsha wired controller
Audi door sticker - GVWR 6944, GAWR Front 3527, GAWR Rear 3968, Avail Payload 1157, Curb Weight 5787 (as a side note this does not seem accurate according to CAT scale), 770 hitch weight
CAT Scale Readings when hitched - Steer Axle 3200, Drive Axle 3320, Trailer Axle 5800 (adding steer and drive axle together looks like Audi hitched up curb weight is approx. 6520)
CAT Scale Readings for unhitched Audi - Steer Axle 3120, Drive Axle 2780

My takeaways from this:
Fine on Axle loads (under by 300+ front and 600+ rear)
Fine on GVWR of Audi (under by 420)
Fine on payload (from GVWR)
Fine on tongue weight (under by approx. 150)

Your numbers may vary, but wanted to show with numbers that yes a German SUV is fine according to every metric I've seen the tow police throw around (and this is not even getting into the advantages of the SUV over pickups in terms of handling, better brakes, etc.). This all being said there are some disadvantages about being a SUV for sure, but that's for a different post some other time.

Looking at your numbers again, I see that post WD net hitch load at 620 lb. but I don't see where you report free trailer tongue weight. I also note the WD tension is returning well over 100% of the front axle shifted load namely 80 lbs over 100%. Best industry practice would describe this as worrisome so it is NOT fine according to towing industry metrics. Furthermore it is clear from the numbers that your trailer tongue though not reported is significantly greater than the Audi 770 guidance, another red flag.

[Glen Carter]

My TB19CB tows just fine with my '08 CayenneS w/air suspension, no WD hitch. I got over 12mpg towing from St George to Ogden at 80mph (we had a tail wind) It's very smooth and stable at any speed. The 4WD and low range options are nice too. I had no issues in October going over Teton Pass.

I would probably limit mine to a 23', it's 6000GWV (1000 more than my 19') and under my 7700lb rating. Tongue weight 500lb. I would expect a hit in mileage and reduced speed in mountains up hill.

The 25' & 27' are under the 7700lb capacity however the tongue weight at 850lb is too much.

[Bier]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Looking at your numbers again, I see that post WD net hitch load at 620 lb. but I don't see where you report free trailer tongue weight. I also note the WD tension is returning well over 100% of the front axle shifted load namely 80 lbs over 100%. Best industry practice would describe this as worrisome so it is NOT fine according to towing industry metrics. Furthermore it is clear from the numbers that your trailer tongue though not reported is significantly greater than the Audi 770 guidance, another red flag.

First off, none of what follows is meant to be an argument, I truly like to educate myself on these topics and appreciate any help, that said I like to read source material vs. simply take someone's comments on a forum so any links would be appreciated.

I will always be the first to admit I am not a towing expert, but I have to say I have never heard anything about what you are calling a best industry practice. Could you please provide some reference.

As to the 620 vs. 770, again I am not an expert on hitches, but I do know structures, beam equations, etc. and this comment doesn't make sense to me based on my engineering training. When hooked up with WD, 620lbs is transferred to the Audi through the hitch (downward vector) as that is the only path a load can be transferred. Whether the tongue weight unhitched is higher seems irrelevant because it doesn't take into account the load directed in the opposite direction via the WD setup. Are you saying hitch manufacturers take forces directed in other vectors into account when they state a max load (basically the 770 is all loads regardless of direction of that load and whether there are offsetting loads)? Again I would appreciate some link to a reference to help educate myself.

Thanks for any insight

[BayouBiker]

I appreciate your introduction.

At the risk of being soundly criticized by others I'll open by referencing the SAE towing standards which recommends no more WD tension than what would return 50% of what is unloaded from the front tow vehicle axle by the tongue weight acting on the ball before adding any WD tension. It is commonly referred Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR). The internet has a few discussions about the choice of 50% and the motivations that led to that guidance. Their guidance applies when at both max trailer weight limit and max ball limit, but you approximate that case so....

The guidance is a consequence of the reality that towing a trailer on a hitch behind the rear bumper always reduces understeer gradient thus pushing the vehicle toward unstable oversteer. Then having added the trailer, any increase of WD tension over zero further pushes the vehicle to or past the point of instability. The manufacturers who also sponsor the SAE have an incentive to maximize reported safe towing limits so their tow vehicle has the "best" stats possible. So, the guidance is close to the place that optimizes the various tradeoffs in the collective opinions of those who set the guidance.

Here is a non-technical article for introduction about the SAE towing standards. https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/15...-the-standard/

Here are many more technical article describing stability considerations associated with trailering in general and a couple on WD hitch use. Colyn used to post here, perhaps he still does...

https://rvbooks.com.au/rv-information/

Your description of the static state of a tow combination with WD is accurate, and the free tongue weigh does not figure into it as you note. The number is relevant in hitch and hitch mount design but that is not the concern I intended to rase.

However the free tongue weight figures into the dynamic loads and momentums which influence tow vehicle rear axle cornering stiffness and tire slip as well as sway damping factor. Happy to talk about this further if the linked articles don't help.

[thewarden]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Looking at your numbers again, I see that post WD net hitch load at 620 lb. but I don't see where you report free trailer tongue weight. I also note the WD tension is returning well over 100% of the front axle shifted load namely 80 lbs over 100%. Best industry practice would describe this as worrisome so it is NOT fine according to towing industry metrics. Furthermore it is clear from the numbers that your trailer tongue though not reported is significantly greater than the Audi 770 guidance, another red flag.

The problem here is the tongue weight of the 25 is one of the heaviest in the AS line, more than the 27 and 28 models. This requires you to shift more than the 100% recommended FALR to get the rear axle weights in line.