Help! Will a 2000 Honda Odyssey tow a '75 Sovereign?

[2airishuman]

ok, so NOW everyone knows...

what is under the hat!

that'd be carrots bob, organic CARROTS!

not HORNS or pick axes...

just a little r'chow 4 later.

another way 2 think about it is...

the uncanny ability to balance many things topside,

before diving DOWN the rabbit hole!

r.i.p. mr. bunny....

cheers
2air'

[Aage]

So, Mr. Bunny, he is called "2HareisHuman?

[ROBERT CROSS]

Now we're back on track..

Anyone see poster #1

Sure hope all the questions have been answered

Keep up the good work gang

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Now we're back on track..

Anyone see poster #1

Sure hope all the questions have been answered

Keep up the good work gang

With the new software, I'm not sure if this is classified info, but the thread starter hasn't been back since June 22...

[cameront120]

Probably got scared away. It's a fascinating topic and it's a shame that it always has to deteriorate into something where peoples feelings get hurt. I appreciate that a few kept cool heads and tried to present the facts as the know them from their own experience. Hopefully the OP will find some useful information that will help to answer his questions.

[cameront120]

Originally Posted by overlander63

With the new software, I'm not sure if this is classified info, but the thread starter hasn't been back since June 22...

I can look at any members profile and see when they were last active. That's a common feature to many forums.

[SARGE/AF]

Originally Posted by aircreek

I'm looking into purchasing a '75 Sovereign. Have a 2000 Honda Odessey. I've tried to figure it it out and I'm confused. The weights are:

Honda: GVWR-5656 lbs.
GAWR: 2840 lbs.
Sovereign: 5065 lbs.
-hitch wt. 650 lbs.
-ball ht. 19.5 inches
If someone could tell me it can be done, I'll go for it!
Thanks for the help.

================================================== ===

You have seen much advice on here, some qualified, some not so, some with experience, some with little, The key here is read all that has been said take names & notes and those that you feel has contributed to answering your question both with standard opinion and those that push the envelope, get back in contact with them either through email or PM and ask more questions.
Once you have gathered enough information then do a little investigation of your own and then you can form your own opinion and decision from there. In your investigation talk to Insurance companies, State Motor vehicle enforcement, Vehicle manufacturer, trailer manufacturer, you might even query some attorneys into any cases they have had involving vehicle crashes.
One thing that should always be your #1 thought is SAFETY, of you, your familiy & passengers, and those around you.
I do not want to start an arguement on this site, but if you wish to email me I would be glad to try and assist you in your endeavers.
My Experience; Been in the camping scene since I was 8, I am now fifty, Experience with many different types of towing vehicles small and large, 22 Years Truck driver/Owner operator with 2 million miles experience and have hauled everything except for moble homes using vehicles from pickups to 5 axle semis and 10 axle trailers. This is one issue that I have alot of experience in.
I currently have a 1975 Soverien pulling it with a GMC 1/2 ton and would not pull this trailer with anything smaller because of the push issue that was breifly mentioned in here.

Mark "Sarge" Hutchens
SargeAF@Hotmail.com

[bryanl]

In your investigation talk to Insurance companies, State Motor vehicle enforcement, Vehicle manufacturer, trailer manufacturer, you might even query some attorneys into any cases they have had involving vehicle crashes.

Have you ever tried doing this?

The opinions you get will be more varied and more poorly founded than those you find here in my experience. That is why any opinion needs to be backed up by appropriate measure or citation, even when from supposedly authoritative sources. Most of these 'authoritative sources" are very very far from direct contact with the issue at hand.

I also suggest we take dire warnings about safety off the table and place that issue in the basic assumption category. No one seeks to be unsafe. Safety is a primary reason for asking the question of the thread in the first place. The issue is not "safe" versus "unsafe" but rather what is the risk, how do we measure it, how do we know the measure, and how do we know when we are talking comfort rather than safety.

I know that you can tow a large trailer safely with an Ody because there are people doing it as we see here. I also know, from direct experience, what accommodations need to be made to do it. IMHO we need to help people looking at decisions understand what is needed to implement various options and not try to frighten them with prognostications or our own projections or vague references. We need to help uncover and understand the actual cost to benefit measures and implications.

[SARGE/AF]

Originally Posted by Leipper

Have you ever tried doing this?

The opinions you get will be more varied and more poorly founded than those you find here in my experience. That is why any opinion needs to be backed up by appropriate measure or citation, even when from supposedly authoritative sources. Most of these 'authoritative sources" are very very far from direct contact with the issue at hand.

I also suggest we take dire warnings about safety off the table and place that issue in the basic assumption category. No one seeks to be unsafe. Safety is a primary reason for asking the question of the thread in the first place. The issue is not "safe" versus "unsafe" but rather what is the risk, how do we measure it, how do we know the measure, and how do we know when we are talking comfort rather than safety.

I know that you can tow a large trailer safely with an Ody because there are people doing it as we see here. I also know, from direct experience, what accommodations need to be made to do it. IMHO we need to help people looking at decisions understand what is needed to implement various options and not try to frighten them with prognostications or our own projections or vague references. We need to help uncover and understand the actual cost to benefit measures and implications.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

"Have you ever tried doing this?" Yes I have, in the training I have had as well as the classes I have taught this information is a must, Truck drivers are tested on this subject and held accountable as well as face continual legal problems because of this issue, in addition as a part time PI I have used my experience for many attorneys both defense and prosicute and testified as to such.
As far as your comment that safety is not issue in a tow vehicle except for a reason to confuse or terrify someone, only shows your lack of experience and concern for family, and the public. Just because one or two does it does not make it right or safe, what you say could also be applied to someone jumping off a bridge or going over Niagra Falls, because one or two did it and did not have a problem no one will, well I hate to inform you but there are several who have tried and had deathly consiquences, same here with towing with a underrated vehicle, just because that person has not had a problem so far does not mean its ok, its not, it is just a matter of time before something that has been said in this post will happen and that person(s) will see their mistake and change, but there is also that possibility they may never have a problem because they dont travel that far or often, but it only takes one time. One last thing and I testified to this in a court case; if you are towing with a vehicle not rated for what you are towing, you are and will automatically be held accountable if you are involved in an accident. The civil suit against this person was won on the fact that this person was towing with a vehicle that was not made to tow what he was towing. This person is now paying dearly for his mistake.
I could sit here and debate this subject, quote actual findings, proof, ETC, for the rest of my life and it is not going to teach you anything nor are you going to listen anyways, so this will be a closed subject as far as you are concerned, One day you and any person who follows your beliefs will learn a lesson and I just hope that I am not there when y'all do.
END OF SUBJECT!!!

[bryanl]

As far as your comment that safety is not issue in a tow vehicle except for a reason to confuse or terrify someone, only shows your lack of experience and concern for family, and the public.

I am very sorry you feel this way and suggest you step back, examine your feelings, and look at where they lead you. IMHO, this kind of personal assault disqualifies the argument. Using 3rd and 4th party anecdotes and bringing in commercial requirements only add to this opinion. It should also be noted that the immediate issue was the argument technique called 'an appeal to authority' which is not considered a good means to support any viewpoint.

Let us consider what we are talking about: the supposition that traveling while exceeding the GCWR is a cause of traffic crashes resulting in injury which then creates liability.

A first consideration is crash statistics. I referred to one source for these earlier in this discussion. What can be learned from them is that the odds of 'exceeding the GCWR' as a causative factor in traffic crashes is about nil. We can support these data with anecdotal personal record as cited in this discussion. The negligible odds can also be inferred by the absence of any reputable mechanism that relates 'exceeding the GCWR' to crashes and also the nebulous definition or method for determining GCWR.

Now we can take a look at the "automatically held accountable" assertion for this extremely rare event. I have seen that idea beat to a pulp in other discussions and the only citations of any credit that surfaced were related to commercial activity and based on legalities. These discussions also attempted to create the idea that driving while 'exceeding the GCWR' was illegal for RV's but that did not get very far either (except for the creativity part).

If one does want to examine this issue, take a look at DUI for comparison and contrast. That is illegal and is well established as a clear causitive factor in traffic crashes causing severe injury to others. What does the insurance company do if you are blamed for a crash while DUI? Are our courts plagued with civil suits based on implicit assumptions of liability? What is the basis for lawsuits and the rationale used to support judgments?

As for the reference of a civil suit - in our litigeous society I can believe those occur but without knowing what suit, the outcome of the suit, and its particulars, I cannot see its applicability in this discussion. Again, look at what happens with DUI as a comparison and contrast to see how absurd the FUD mongering about civil liability due to 'exceeding the GCWR' may be. I'd also suggest considering taking a look at recent weight rating calculations methods changes in the RV industry and the history of RV's delivered from the manufacturer that have weight ratings such that any road ready configuration exceeds ratings.

I could sit here and debate this subject, quote actual findings, proof, ETC, for the rest of my life and it is not going to teach you anything nor are you going to listen anyways

The problem is that there have been absolutely no "actual findings, proof, ETC" offered and I would be extremely gullible to go along with an assertion that has no rational basis and no such evidence. This, perhaps, is one of the more important points to be emphasized for anyone trying to make good decisions. Do you make decisions based solely on someone's say so or do you look for reasons why, supporting evidence, good rationale explaining conclusions, and a proper consideration of facets and unknowns and limitations of existing knowledge?

One of the ideas that should come out of a discussion like this is that you should read your insurance policy. See what it covers and review the list of limitations and exemptions. You might have an insurance agent or qualified lawyer help you understand the terms and meaning of the policy clauses. Contrast this approach to that suggested above and you might learn how to get the most from your money when seeking professional advice as well.

Understand why - don't just take somebody's word for it! (and be properly skeptical of your own conclusions, too)

[Road Ruler]

Over the last few days on the Trailer Life forum there has been an on going thread about a guy who was considering towing a Chalet with a Honda Civic. He reported the trailer weights 1500lbs dry and the Civic is rated in Europe for 3,000lbs. Lots of ya and nay comments, usual stuff but there were a couple of posts that stood out.

One was a follow up post by the guy who actually went through with the idea and it went like this....

Quote: 29JUN08 RESULTS AFTER 850 MILES in the MOUNTAINS:

This turned out to be a no brainier as was predicted by the knowledgeable who contributed to this thread. I am pulling 30 pounds per horsepower....need I say more, look at what you are doing! It handles like they were made for each other. I cruised the speed limit + 5% on mountain highways of British Columbia, excepting free ways in WA state where I did 60-65 MPH. All this with the A/C full blast at 85 DegF OAT and I am getting about 22 M/USG, down from 36 M/USG. As I say a perfect match that goes like h... engine cooling system never changed one iota.....




Another was this post from a guy who claimed to be an automotive Engineer.
Here is what he had to say....

QUOTE:

I'm a ME working under Daimler. Let me tell you, a MAJORITY of the design specifications are not finalized by the engineering department. We can go through rigorous testing to prove the safe limit of a component, and marketing or the lawyers can slap on their veto stamp due to customer demand, perception, and other stupid reasons.

While I have never worked on design for towing, I can almost gurantee that most sedans and minivans are under-rated for marketing reasons. Simple law of physics tell you that the power-weight ratio, handling dynamics, and stopping power of a 3300 lbs, 270hp Altima + 5000 lbs trailer is superior to a 300hp F150 + 11000 lbs trailer.

Tow rig to trailer weight ratio is also largely irrelavent with proper design. Proof: commerical rigs tow trailers weighting many times heavier than the rig itself.

[SARGE/AF]

Originally Posted by Road Ruler

Over the last few days on the Trailer Life forum there has been an on going thread about a guy who was considering towing a Chalet with a Honda Civic. He reported the trailer weights 1500lbs dry and the Civic is rated in Europe for 3,000lbs. Lots of ya and nay comments, usual stuff but there were a couple of posts that stood out.

One was a follow up post by the guy who actually went through with the idea and it went like this....

Quote: 29JUN08 RESULTS AFTER 850 MILES in the MOUNTAINS:

This turned out to be a no brainier as was predicted by the knowledgeable who contributed to this thread. I am pulling 30 pounds per horsepower....need I say more, look at what you are doing! It handles like they were made for each other. I cruised the speed limit + 5% on mountain highways of British Columbia, excepting free ways in WA state where I did 60-65 MPH. All this with the A/C full blast at 85 DegF OAT and I am getting about 22 M/USG, down from 36 M/USG. As I say a perfect match that goes like h... engine cooling system never changed one iota.....




Another was this post from a guy who claimed to be an automotive Engineer.
Here is what he had to say....

QUOTE:

I'm a ME working under Daimler. Let me tell you, a MAJORITY of the design specifications are not finalized by the engineering department. We can go through rigorous testing to prove the safe limit of a component, and marketing or the lawyers can slap on their veto stamp due to customer demand, perception, and other stupid reasons.

While I have never worked on design for towing, I can almost gurantee that most sedans and minivans are under-rated for marketing reasons. Simple law of physics tell you that the power-weight ratio, handling dynamics, and stopping power of a 3300 lbs, 270hp Altima + 5000 lbs trailer is superior to a 300hp F150 + 11000 lbs trailer.

Tow rig to trailer weight ratio is also largely irrelavent with proper design. Proof: commerical rigs tow trailers weighting many times heavier than the rig itself.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXX

There are 2 points to be made from this,
1st Part; you notice in his post that he towed this with out any mention of any occurances wind, rain, idiot drivers, etc. I would be one to ask this person if he had any occurances and how long he has been towing with this set up and what distance he travels as well as is he still towing this way.
2nd Part; This is a person who sits at a desk and looks at numbers and comments on a piece of paper and relys on what that paper says, no experience, no actual testing himself. So his comment is highly unreliable, this is where Leipers comments ring true. Just because it works on paper does not necessarly mean it is that way in real life situations.
Looks at the engineers point about semi's, I have drove truck for 22 years and logged 2 mil miles and have drove different set ups and what the engineers lack of experience does not say is that semis are set up to tow certain types of loads EX single axle up to 50,000 lbs, tandom 80,000 lbs, Tandom heavy duty 100,000 lbs, Tri-axle 100,000 lbs plus, speed direction, traffic, are all controlled, this is why the trucks above 80,000 lbs have to be permited to travel: each made to handle its load not just in pulling but in stopping and steering.
I took a single axle tractor and put it under a 80,000 lb load and even though it would pull it, turn, normal stopping, I found that under certain circumstances this truck could not handle the trailer or weight
under other than normal happenings. The push/pull factor took over and caused problems. Fortunatley for me no one was hurt only my pride and the vehicle I was driving.

Point here is not always can you go by what the engineers say because they only know whats on paper, and you can not trust a person that has towed and did not have any instances where he had to test the towing set up he is using under circumstances that are not normal. When you see people in here speak of certain set ups that are dangerous it is because of experience either personally or as a witness to it.

Definition Push/Pull Factor: the point at which the tow vehicle is being pushed or pulled by what it is towing,
Newtons laws says; that once something starts in a direction it is going to travel in that direction until something of equal or greater force changes that direction.

Sarge
PS; As I am sitting writing this the local news has just broadcasted a news report of a small SUV towing a trailer lost control and hit a semi head on, 3 of the 5 family members was killed. This happened Saturday morning in Wyth County VA, I fully intend on looking up that report to see what was the cause and see if it applies to this post and if so I will post it.

[SARGE/AF]

Here below is the news article on the crash that I mentioned in Post #72, when you read you will see a Dodge Durango pulling a 35 foot trailer, the durango is considered to be a mini truck or as the manufactuers call it Midsize, rated at 5500 lb towing capacity, capable of towing this trailer YES, Underrated YES. Driver lost control and unable to control it.
I am betting that when the investigation is done you are going to find that something occured that caused him to loose control. I would also tend to bet that the investigating officer will verify that if towed by the proper vehicle the accident could have been not as serious or even avoided.
Look at the fatility/survivor report. Is taking a chance really worth this price???
I intend to find out, I have a freind on the force who can inquire for me.

Sarge

Three killed in I-77 crash

Jeffrey Simmons
Wytheville Enterprise: News >
Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 01:20 PM


By WAYNE QUESENBERRY/Staff
Three members of a Canadian family were killed and two others injured Thursday night in a crash on Interstate 77 near the 45 mile marker. The fatalities included a father, mother and 7-year-old daughter.
According to Sgt. M.T. Conroy of the Virginia State Police, the victims were William Walter Smith, 33, of Hamilton, Ontario; his wife, Sandra Anne Smith, 35; and their daughter, Kayleigh Jane Smith.
Conroy said the father was operating a Dodge Durango pulling a 35-foot camper and headed southbound on the interstate around 7 p.m. He apparently lost control of the vehicle, crossed the median and hit a northbound tractor-trailer rig head on, the sergeant said.
Two of the Smiths’ other daughters were injured. One was airlifted to Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center, and the other was transported by ground to the same hospital. Their conditions were unknown at press time.
Conroy said the truck driver was not injured.
The northbound lanes, Sgt. Conroy said, were closed for several hours while the wreckage was removed. He noted traffic was rerouted off the interstate onto Rt. 52 until around midnight.

[Chuck]

The Durango is "rated" to tow much more than that...equal to the Dodge 1/2 ton pickups, as it shares an identical power train. 35 feet of trailer sounds like alot, but how much did it weigh? they don't say. Usually, when I hear "crossed the median...", I suspect that the driver fell asleep. There is as much indication of that in the report as there is of an overload/improperly rigged condition.

[Aage]

Very sorry to hear about the accident involving that family.

FWIW, here's the Consumers Report "model summary" for the Dodge Durango.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Durango straddles the midsized and large SUV classes. It is a body-on-frame SUV with a high towing capacity. Handling is clumsy but secure, and the ride is compliant but somewhat unsettled. The cabin is fairly quiet, but the engine is a bit noisy. The optional 5.7-liter Hemi V8 is responsive, but fuel economy is poor at 13 mpg overall. Towing capacity is the Durango's forte. The third-row seat is relatively usable. Fit and finish is unimpressive. Reliability has been average. Stability control and curtain air bags are standard.

Highs
Acceleration, ride, interior room, towing capacity.

Lows
Clumsy handling, fuel economy, braking, location of rear-wiper switch

[bryanl]

Point here is not always can you go by what the engineers say because they only know whats on paper, and you can not trust a person that has towed and did not have any instances where he had to test the towing set up he is using under circumstances that are not normal.

This is why the Can Am test track results and the individual (first hand) reports based on rather extensive experience are so interesting, especially in contrast to those wanting to make bets or prognosticate about what they believe must be ...

There is no way that anyone can engineer or test for every possible circumstance. That is why it is a consideration of risk versus benefit and not a yes versus no issue. We can reduce the uncertainty in risk by engineering, paperwork, testing and experience but must realize there is always some risk - no matter what choice you make. If this was not the case, we would not need insurance. Your insurance policy is a "bet" and you can look at what you pay for some indication of the odds involved in the risks actually encountered.

Where this conversation seems headed seems to be something analogous to the odds of getting hit by a meteorite while on the road. Do we worry as much about that?

I suspect that the driver fell asleep

this fits the published crash statistics as highest odds by a large margin.

[Byteman]

I use a 2005 Odyssey (I see earlier in the post that this is a higher hp, I do not know this as true or not) and have no problems with it. I am pulling a 1985 31' Excella and so far get 11 - 13 miles to the gallon. So far no power issues, definitely handles well.

CANAM RV did the mod on the hitch. They claimed at the time to have done 300-400 of these vehicles. Hitch lines right up with trailer (no raise or lower of hitch to meet trailer). It has very low center of gravity for the tow as well as VERY close to the rear axle.

[SARGE/AF]

I never said that these couldn't tow this size of trailer. I am refering to the capability of the vehicle to handle this size of trailer in other than normal circumstances. Push/Pull rule applies to this situation. What I and others have failed to mention is the weight of the tow vehicle plays a big part of this, a heavier vehicle can control a trailer better than a smaller vehicle as well as minimize the push/pull from causing major problems.
After I having spent so many years in transportation industry am a firm believer in matching the tow unit with what is being towed and I think that is what everyone else here is also attempting to say.
Point here is a vehicle that weighs in at around 9000 lbs is going to handle 10-20,000 lbs much better and safer than a vehicle that only weighs in at 4-5000 lbs.

Sarge

[markdoane]

Originally Posted by Chuck

Usually, when I hear "crossed the median...", I suspect that the driver fell asleep.

I'm buying that theory also. It's just over 600 miles from their hometown to the scene of the accident, and it was early evening. The driver was probably overdue for a nap.

[canadianguy]

Originally Posted by Leipper

The Ody has a 250 HP engine so it has the power. For the 2000's the weak spot may be the transmission but that can be handled with proper cooling.

You can only cure so much with proper cooling. Heat isn't the only thing that destroys a transmission. Excessive time in lower gears, frequent shifting, high radial loads on the bearings.

There's a big difference between 250HP in an Honda Odessey and 250 HP in a truck. Bigger displacement, lower RPM, lower piston speeds and accelerations, and don't forget to compare the size of the radiator cooling the thing. Go up a hill and you lose speed induced airflow through the radiator, so you need a large radiator and fan to move air through it.

Pulling more than the maximum recomended weight on any vehicle is a lousy idea, regardless of the modifications made to the tow vehicle.