F150 Lightning First Test Results

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Not so fast. The state does not set the fuel price, but it does set taxes and fees:

State taxes: Excise Tax: 51 cents per gallon; Sales Tax (estimated): 10 cents per gallon

State fees: Low Carbon Gas Programs: 22 cents per gallon; Greenhouse Gas Programs: 15 cents per gallon; Underground Tank Storage: 2 cents per gallon

The CA rebate $800 per household is nothing when you have four cars that are being driven.

The diesel tax suspension is part of the shell game by moving money around within the general fund and does not lower my taxes, nor will it stop them from being raised when the surplus is exhausted and the general fund programs still need to be funded at the higher, post-surplus levels.

The state has far more "tools" available than the "few" that you say CA has. The CA Legislature has been making magic for 50 years and could do so here with fuel taxes and additional revenue sources - but it doesn't.

We pay some of the highest gas and diesel taxes in the country, and registration fees as well. What do we get for it? Investment in clean transportation? Like the bullet train? Not really.

So, if ALL taxes and fees you reference were eliminated, we'd be saving only a bit more than a buck a gallon. Nice, but not game changing. Of course, the programs and road repairs funded by those taxes and fees would go by the wayside. Nothing is simple. I won't say more to avoid being too far OT. Cheers.

Originally Posted by STREMN

The thread title attracts readers based upon it's subject. When the thread diverges away from that, as we have here in many of the last posts, the thread no longer serves it's primary purpose.

Start a new thread in the "Off Topic Forum" to discuss the area of interest, rather than running this "off the topic title".

Our Community Rules are very explicit regarding: Be courteous and Staying on topic They can be reviewed in this link: https://www.airforums.com/forums/mis...ork&page=rules

Thanks!

Understood and thanks. FWIW, the last two threads which were specifically created to discuss EV subject matter were closed abruptly for, in one case at least, not being Airstream related despite being in the "Off Topic Forum". I don't recall a specific explanation being given for closure in the other case, but it was also regarding a thread in the OT forum.

[WellSaid11]

Yes, we lose the taxes and fees and all those “programs” and “road repairs” they fund go by the “wayside” at that point. Really?

Some of the worst roads and lowest per capita spending on roads in the US right here in CA:

https://www.moneygeek.com/living/sta...nfrastructure/

https://www.urban.org/policy-centers...d-expenditures

Roads are bad and underfunded for EVs and ICE vehicles just the same, including the Ford Lightning.

I’m out, as we are likely (as you said) off-topic and the facts are pretty clear on this. Not really a debate.

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Yes, we lose the taxes and fees and all those “programs” and “road repairs” they fund go by the “wayside” at that point. Really?

Some of the worst roads and lowest per capita spending on roads in the US right here in CA:

Roads are bad and underfunded for EVs and ICE vehicles just the same, including the Ford Lightning.

I’m out, as we are likely (as you said) off-topic and the facts are pretty clear on this. Not really a debate.

There are already concerns that EV's like the Ford Lightning will cause a reduction in the collection of taxes on gas and diesel that are used for road maintenance. Eliminating those taxes altogether to lower gas prices incrementally would make a poor situation even worse. You're correct, the facts are clear and it's not really a debate.

That said, I'm actually pretty intrigued by the Lightning. I read recently where Ford has uprated the power and payload rating from the originally released specifications.

https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/202...20of%20torque.

It still doesn't fit all of my requirements for a tow vehicle but it's getting closer.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Realize...the power source in any EV today will be much better next year.

Are EV's allowed on all the roads the 'gas tax' helps maintain?

“We are not living in the past, just flourishing in the present”
RLC


Bob
🇺🇦🇺🇸😂

Yes, but several states impose an additional registration fee on EVs, to make up for the missed fuel tax revenue. Not sure which state you are in, yours may be one of them.

This link lists them, and more states are joining the club.

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Yes, we lose the taxes and fees and all those “programs” and “road repairs” they fund go by the “wayside” at that point. Really?

Some of the worst roads and lowest per capita spending on roads in the US right here in CA:


Roads are bad and underfunded for EVs and ICE vehicles just the same, including the Ford Lightning.

I’m out, as we are likely (as you said) off-topic and the facts are pretty clear on this. Not really a debate.

And California, which you show as your location, is one of the states with an additional registration tax for EVs. It was introduced in 2017. The facts are very clear on this. And the Lightning will be subject to it as well, to bring this back to the thread topic.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by mikeinca

There are already concerns that EV's like the Ford Lightning will cause a reduction in the collection of taxes on gas and diesel that are used for road maintenance. Eliminating those taxes altogether to lower gas prices incrementally would make a poor situation even worse. You're correct, the facts are clear and it's not really a debate.

That said, I'm actually pretty intrigued by the Lightning. I read recently where Ford has uprated the power and payload rating from the originally released specifications.

https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/202...20of%20torque.

It still doesn't fit all of my requirements for a tow vehicle but it's getting closer.

Originally Posted by jcl

Yes, but several states impose an additional registration fee on EVs, to make up for the missed fuel tax revenue. Not sure which state you are in, yours may be one of them.

This link lists them, and more states are joining the club.



And California, which you show as your location, is one of the states with an additional registration tax for EVs. It was introduced in 2017. The facts are very clear on this. And the Lightning will be subject to it as well, to bring this back to the thread topic.

At no time did I mention, nor was I talking about, the EVs not paying “fuel” taxes or their additional registration/use fee.

I was only speaking to the inordinately high gasoline/diesel tax in CA, what that tax/fee structure is comprised of and what those in CA (don’t) get for those taxes/fees.

Again, nothing to debate there.

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

At no time did I mention, nor was I talking about, the EVs not paying “fuel” taxes or their additional registration/use fee.

I was only speaking to the inordinately high gasoline/diesel tax in CA, what that tax/fee structure is comprised of and what those in CA (don’t) get for those taxes/fees.

Again, nothing to debate there.

good, then it makes a Lightning even more desirable! Which I think is part of the point.

The Lightning will not be a drop-in replacement for everyone who tows a large trailer, or maybe not even most, but it has a role. I tend to camp within 120 miles or so of my house most of the time so range is not such a big deal.

Personally I think the first post anyone makes about any EV on this towing section should include the disclaimer, "We understand that this is not an answer for everyone so no need to repeat that in every thread." And that should be followed by links to battery life, recycling, lifecycle analysis and the green-ness of our charging infrastructure. Just to get it out of the way!

[jcl]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

The Lightning will not be a drop-in replacement for everyone who tows a large trailer, or maybe not even most, but it has a role. I tend to camp within 120 miles or so of my house most of the time so range is not such a big deal.

Personally I think the first post anyone makes about any EV on this towing section should include the disclaimer, "We understand that this is not an answer for everyone so no need to repeat that in every thread." And that should be followed by links to battery life, recycling, lifecycle analysis and the green-ness of our charging infrastructure. Just to get it out of the way!

I tried to cover off the “not perfect for every use case” in my opening posts to this thread.

Originally Posted by jcl

Note the qualifier on towing longer distances. That isn't just about range, it is about the rate at which charge stations are built out over the coming years. And the frequency with which one tows longer distances. For camping within 150 miles from home, or longer trips only a few times per year, this works. For frequent several hundred mile days while towing, not so much. Yet.

I don’t plan to purchase a Lightning. But I am intrigued by it, and very glad to see Ford introduce it. As I see it, the F series trucks are the most popular vehicles in North America, and the reviews describe the Lightning as not just a good EV but a better F150 than the ICE version. That is hugely significant. Not everyone wants to drive a Tesla, and that is just fine.

This is Ford’s first BEV pickup. It is compromised by the use of the traditional F series frame, among other things. Traded off for reduced time to market. But it is a remarkable achievement nonetheless. Imagine how much further the Silverado or Lightning replacement will go when they are out, with their ground up EV designs.

Exciting times for fans of cars and trucks, whatever their power source.

[DewTheDew]

Thanks, jcl. The other reason it is so important is that in order for these EVs generally, and trucks specifically, to get to a really strong place is if people build them and people buy them. All of that funds continued R&D to make them even better. Face it, oil is a limited resource that will run out one day so I am glad we are starting to adjust now!

[skyguyscott]

Narrowing the scope of discussion to the F-150 Lightning, I believe not much more can be discussed from an informed standpoint until we have actual field reports and numbers from real-world users in the wild, and then a comparison with the ICE vehicles in both the first and fifth year of use.

Until then, everything is pretty much speculation, rumor, philosophy, hypothesis, and skepticism.

It would be no surprise to discover the Lightning is the bee's knees for some, impractical for others.

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by skyguyscott

Narrowing the scope of discussion to the F-150 Lightning, I believe not much more can be discussed from an informed standpoint until we have actual field reports and numbers from real-world users in the wild, and then a comparison with the ICE vehicles in both the first and fifth year of use.

Until then, everything is pretty much speculation, rumor, philosophy, hypothesis, and skepticism.

It would be no surprise to discover the Lightning is the bee's knees for some, impractical for others.

Good point, but I think the direct comparisons are a trap. Like comparing a car and a truck; they have different purposes. I think a truck like the Lightning has, at this moment, a different purpose than an F250 or even an F150 ICE. It can do things that other trucks cannot do, and it cannot do some things the ICE trucks can. I hope people look at them from that perspective; what needs does it fill?

[Mikemdd]

Originally Posted by DewTheDew

Thanks, jcl. The other reason it is so important is that in order for these EVs generally, and trucks specifically, to get to a really strong place is if people build them and people buy them. All of that funds continued R&D to make them even better. Face it, oil is a limited resource that will run out one day so I am glad we are starting to adjust now!

We need to be realistic that all resources are limited. Ecars use 4X as much copper as ICE cars. Have you been to a copper mine lately? It is currently in short supply. Cobalt, Lithium, and all rare earth elements used in ecars are limited. Maybe more than oil. It's called "rare earth" for a reason. Nothing is free. While oil and water don't mix, we need to understand that oil and ICE need to mix for the foreseeable future.

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

At no time did I mention, nor was I talking about, the EVs not paying “fuel” taxes or their additional registration/use fee.

I was only speaking to the inordinately high gasoline/diesel tax in CA, what that tax/fee structure is comprised of and what those in CA (don’t) get for those taxes/fees.

Again, nothing to debate there.

But you did write that CA has control over various taxes and fees, which you enumerated, that add to pump prices with the implication that CA could reduce costs to the consumer by eliminating them. Later, you mentioned that roads were "underfunded".

My point is that if you are justifiably unhappy with the state of CA's roads now, then eliminating the taxes on fuel that pay for road repairs will only make things worse.

[WellSaid11]

You are arguing with yourself. You have both won and lost. Congrats!

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by Mikemdd

We need to be realistic that all resources are limited. Ecars use 4X as much copper as ICE cars. Have you been to a copper mine lately? It is currently in short supply. Cobalt, Lithium, and all rare earth elements used in ecars are limited. Maybe more than oil. It's called "rare earth" for a reason. Nothing is free. While oil and water don't mix, we need to understand that oil and ICE need to mix for the foreseeable future.

I am actually involved in battery research from fundamental science through to manufacturing and recycling. In fact today I sat in on a talk about this exact topic from experts across the spectrum. All this is being sorted, not immediately but the constraints are not as serious as you think. Growth at the current rate is sustainable, but not indefinitely. This is one reason that recycling is key as well.

But the problems are not non-existent, and car manufacturers like Ford are considering taking more control over the supply chains. While China does not possess all the raw materials, they currently control a large share of the processing.

And to be clear, rare earths are not rare (https://www.thermofisher.com/blog/mi...arth-elements/).

I look forward to what the future holds and am excited that Ford is producing the Lightning!

[Mikemdd]

[QUOTE=DewTheDew;2599029]

And to be clear, rare earths are not rare (https://www.thermofisher.com/blog/mi...arth-elements/).

According to the "reference".....

"However, due to difficulties in extracting the metal from the ore, rare is a fitting term".

As mentioned above, have you been to a copper mine lately?

[mikeinca]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

You are arguing with yourself. You have both won and lost. Congrats!

And you are funny!

[pteck]

Politics, tradition, sustainability, whatever agenda you might have...don't care.

Most of us are not in this hobby because it's green and cheap. Quite the opposite really, as we're living large with expensive toys and tow rigs with a healthy appetite for consumables.

I'm into EVs for the performance, luxury, and power. Diesel is too crass for my tastes.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Mikemdd

We need to be realistic that all resources are limited. Ecars use 4X as much copper as ICE cars. Have you been to a copper mine lately? It is currently in short supply. Cobalt, Lithium, and all rare earth elements used in ecars are limited. Maybe more than oil. It's called "rare earth" for a reason. Nothing is free. While oil and water don't mix, we need to understand that oil and ICE need to mix for the foreseeable future.

If you meant that ICE (using fossil fuels) and EVs are going to mix for the foreseeable future, I think that is a good thing IMO.

The fossil fuel age will end. Better to be developing and perfecting alternatives now than waiting and having to go cold turkey.

FWIW, I haven't been to a copper mine lately, but used to be at various copper mines weekly. La Escondida, Chuquicamata, Rado Miro Tomic, Zaldivar, Mantos Blancos, and supporting many others. My work on those mines was a few decades ago. I lived through $0.63 copper, now that was a tough market. I think the lithium mines there in the Atacama Desert were equally interesting, and probably more relevant to a thread on BEVs.

[bel73]

Originally Posted by jcl

The fossil fuel age will end. Better to be developing and perfecting alternatives now than waiting and having to go cold turkey.

When will the fossil fuel age end?? What are the other alternatives being developed??

[propchef]

Originally Posted by bel73

When will the fossil fuel age end?? What are the other alternatives being developed??

It's inevitable.

There are literally thousands of alternatives, some under development and some already with us.