F150 Lightning First Test Results

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Yes but those Volts are not all electric but are hybrids, are not pulling 4,000 to 12,000 lbs and do not have the weight of a truck frame and associated payload.

Not at all the same with regard to battery load and lifespan.

It's about CYCLES, full cycles. Partial cycles are cumulative to full cycles. Load has no bearing, if they are properly thermally protected.

Anything that reduces MPGe (weight), just increases cycle usage. Sorry, but loads do the same thing to ICE engines/transmissions.

The life/dollar/battery replacement argument is not very valid as a stand alone position.

(This from a guy who is NOT ready for EV as a tow vehicle....I've done my in depth analysis)

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

It's about CYCLES, full cycles. Partial cycles are cumulative to full cycles. Load has no bearing, if they are properly thermally protected.

Anything that reduces MPGe (weight), just increases cycle usage. Sorry, but loads do the same thing to ICE engines/transmissions.

The life/dollar/battery replacement argument is not very valid as a stand alone position.

(This from a guy who is NOT ready for EV as a tow vehicle....I've done my in depth analysis)

Not exactly, but even by your logic the number of charge/discharge cycles will be more frequent as the drain on the battery will be more in the F-150 towing and payload environment, not to mention the operating temps that affect the life of the battery - shielding or not.

Call it whatever you wish, the load on the truck will affect the life of the battery through cycles and depth of discharge.

If you are telling me you are going to buy this truck, drive 50 miles to camp and immediately plug it in so as to live in that world of minimal cycle and depth of discharge, then good for you!

[Taco Joe]

Originally Posted by AppFan

I'm excited to see how this technology continues to develop over the next 5-10 years. Combining this with the E-Stream platform could enable long-haul (300-400 miles per day) with purely electric vehicles.

I'm waiting for that 5 years from now. I just received my Starlink dish and waited a year for that, so I've got my near term tech fix for now (I also added 660 watts solar and 60 ah lithium). To bad there isn't a hybrid truck that fits the bill now. Hopefully they'll have a few 2 axle wide body floor plans to choose from. I have a 23fb and would love to go 25 or 27/28.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Not exactly, but even by your logic the number of charge/discharge cycles will be more frequent as the drain on the battery will be more in the F-150 towing and payload environment, not to mention the operating temps that affect the life of the battery - shielding or not.

Call it whatever you wish, the load on the truck will affect the life of the battery through cycles and depth of discharge.

If you are telling me you are going to buy this truck, drive 50 miles to camp and immediately plug it in so as to live in that world of minimal cycle and depth of discharge, then good for you!

Look, I am assuming proper engineering by the manufacturer...including liquid cooling and heating of the batt, torque management to prevent instantaneous electrical and thermal spike damage, depth of charge and discharge management etc.

Not like the Nissan fiasco.

Now, if you buy today, and need a battery in 150k...7 years, what will the price be then?? Who knows. In 2013, when I was still working for GM, a Volt battery was almost $14k. Today it is under $9k. (part cost)

And a new ICE engine for my Silverado is ~$7500 (part cost)

Labor would be less for a batt replacement than an engine swap. (for most EVs, it's a drop out...few hours at most).

Are there disparities...yeah....but not a be-all-end-all that many folks make it out to be.

[LAWBC]

Oh I get this thread let me understand you will tow your trailer to an RV or boon-docking site and have a charging station right near to you. OK, now I understand.

[JJTX]

Originally Posted by Wayne&Sam

If it was all about cost, you wouldn't have an Airstream.

Oh I know. Trust me, folks have more money than common sense sometimes =D

[JJTX]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

Yes, and no.

You are correct the current lithium batteries are the limitation. Not only are LiFePO4 batteries made with some rare elements, they are also very nasty. Cobalt and Nickel used in the electrodes is such a filthy business that even Musk does not want to engage. The liquid Lithium electrolyte is so flammable and toxic that fire response teams have special procedures to deal with it. In the recent Louisville Colorado fire fighters were forced to protect the Tesla dealership while homes burned because the toxic fallout would have been devastating.

You are not correct that current LiFePO4 is all the future has in store. There is nothing challenging about EV technology other than the power source. That is why GM invested in Nikola then dropped them like a bad habit when they discovered they were lying about having Fuel Cell technology. That is also why Ford is dumping Rivian as fast as they can but doubling down on investing in Solid Power (a solid state battery technology company). Solid state batteries are very promising as they do not use Cobalt nickel for electrodes but instead use Pyrite which is abundant. They also replace the highly flammable liquid Lithium electrolyte with a temperature stable electrolyte that an be made from waste hydrogen sulfide, some of which is a byproduct from the oil and gas industry!

I guess my point is we are not stuck with current battery technology forever. EV penetration will continue to grow slowly as infrastructure and battery technology and availability improves. I personally feel our infatuation with pure electric is causing more harm to the environment than a more practical interim solution such as high mileage plug in hybrid. We could all be driving these today and reducing vehicle emissions significantly but auto manufacturers don't want to invest in the complexity and would much rather build simple all electric.

I am 100% in favor of hybrids. I would own one if I wanted a car or needed one. But all electric are nitch. Short commutes, perfectly logical for some people. I think they have their place.

They just don't have a place in long distance driving. Maybe some-day it'll take 10 minutes to charge from 20 percent to 100 percent. And it will be practical for more people.

It's just too expensive and that is not going to change while the economy is being destroyed. It takes energy, not battery energy, to produce those cars and more and more expensive production is passed onto the buyer. Its complicated, but then very simple.

A person looking for a car that can only spend 10K, can't buy even a hybrid, right now, or even 5 years ago. That is not changing in 5 years, either.

Remember, the average income in the USA is about 50,000$ a year. Those people can't afford most of time, even a hybrid.

Ford just lost billions on its electric car vehicle gamble, the Rivian, 5 billion loss. Nobody wants it. The Truck, will be different because its a truck. Regardless of the truck, it's more useful. Battery operated or not.

I just dont see drastic cost reduction and improvement in technology in at least a decade, at the rate things are improving. We just dont agree on that is all. Reduction of 'emissions' is a misnomer. You still have to 'generate' the power to charge that car. Solar panels aren't going to do it.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

I remember when Motor Trend told me how great the Fiat 124 Spyder was too! Mine stayed clean since it was at the dealer 8 months of the one and only year I owned it.
I suspect MT's reviews are based more on advertising dollars and less on real world testing.
But, no question, EV's are the future, even though no one is building a new power plant.

Don’t read the reviews for the opinions. Read them for the details they are releasing about the design and technology.

It is just entertaining to see how they have swung. They don’t refer to it as a good EV, they refer to it as a better truck overall than the ICE version.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by JJTX

Technology is nowhere even remotely close to an alternative to Lithium. Not that anyone can afford or get mass produced.

The world cant even produce the lithium for all but barely 10 percent of electrics, now.

In 5-10 years, it will still be lithium. As it has been for decades.

We don’t need an alternative to lithium. We can benefit from new battery variants that still use lithium but have different chemistries for the other elements.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by JJTX

..........and we wont even mention the cost of these cars/trucks that makes it more expensive to drive than its gas predecessor.

Our EV has an energy (fuel) cost per km (or mile, if you prefer) about 1/6th of our previous BMW SUV, a similar sized vehicle. And it cost less to purchase, with zero incentives. Oh, and it doesn’t have any routine maintenance expense.

In what world is it more expensive to drive?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

I wouldn't be able to drive 2 hours towing the Airstream without recharging. And then what about when you get to the destination? You hope there is a charger? I did a search in NW Wisconsin where we go camping. Not one EV charging station within 50 miles.

I can see someone using this for local driving, that has EV charging, but won't use it for camping.

No thanks. EV's aren't there yet for many many areas.

I don’t think that is the way to look at it. If you haven’t already ordered one of these you are unlikely to be able to purchase one before 2025 when it is replaced by the next generation version.

Better to think about what the next generation will do, and how many chargers will exist when that model debuts.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

I agree with Daquenzer. Until the charging grid is built out to where it makes sense, this is novelty territory for now as to travel trailers.

I fully agree that this won’t work for people towing travel trailers longer distances. But here is the key point. The best trucks available will now be unsuitable for that sort of towing. Meaning that those purchasing a new truck for towing will be purchasing what is essentially a tier 2 product, one that is absolutely better in terms of range on one tank but worse at so many other things.

The BEV F150 has a fraction of the fuel (energy) cost per mile. Virtually no scheduled maintenance cost. Lockable front storage. IRS. 10 kw onboard power with a 240v 30 amp socket. Vehicle to grid capability. Zero to 60 in the mid 4 seconds. Bluecruise. Etc. but if you want the traditional ICE range on one tank, you trade all this and more off.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Trowbridge

Would seem logical for the EV truck sellers to make sure their vehicles could charge at a 50 amp station in RV parks. Maybe a converter is coming? :-) [later edit, Tesla already has a 50 amp converter available - - so much for my get rich scheme - but that won't work for 30 amp plugs]

I understand that the Lightning is available with charging options up to 80 amp.

There are Tesla plug adaptors readily available to utilize 30 amp plugs in campgrounds.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Sophiehaus

Wait till you have to replace the batteries in a few years. I know Tesla batteries costs over $20,000. A well maintained gas or diesel truck can last 10+ years and go 300,000 miles before an engine replacement. I think electric trucks are cool, but it is too soon to destroy the fossil fuel industry and to abandon gas vehicles.

My Tesla battery and vehicle warranty is longer than my last several ICE vehicle warranties were. I see no issue with 300,000 miles.

[Daquenzer]

Originally Posted by jcl

I don’t think that is the way to look at it. If you haven’t already ordered one of these you are unlikely to be able to purchase one before 2025 when it is replaced by the next generation version.

Better to think about what the next generation will do, and how many chargers will exist when that model debuts.

I know you are a big EV proponent. And they clearly have a place. But I can tell you right now that in 2025 there still won’t be enough charging stations.

Right now our government can’t even address basic shortages like baby formula. I have little confidence that the government will get charging stations out to rural areas any time soon. In fact unless private industry gets it done it won’t get done, and it will only get done by private industry when it is profitable to do so.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by JJTX

I am 100% in favor of hybrids. I would own one if I wanted a car or needed one. But all electric are nitch. Short commutes, perfectly logical for some people. I think they have their place.

They just don't have a place in long distance driving. Maybe some-day it'll take 10 minutes to charge from 20 percent to 100 percent. And it will be practical for more people.

It's just too expensive and that is not going to change while the economy is being destroyed. It takes energy, not battery energy, to produce those cars and more and more expensive production is passed onto the buyer. Its complicated, but then very simple.

A person looking for a car that can only spend 10K, can't buy even a hybrid, right now, or even 5 years ago. That is not changing in 5 years, either.

Remember, the average income in the USA is about 50,000$ a year. Those people can't afford most of time, even a hybrid.

Ford just lost billions on its electric car vehicle gamble, the Rivian, 5 billion loss. Nobody wants it. The Truck, will be different because its a truck. Regardless of the truck, it's more useful. Battery operated or not.

I just dont see drastic cost reduction and improvement in technology in at least a decade, at the rate things are improving. We just dont agree on that is all. Reduction of 'emissions' is a misnomer. You still have to 'generate' the power to charge that car. Solar panels aren't going to do it.

Things may be changing more quickly than you think.

Our BEV is not a niche vehicle (nitch?). I missed keeping up with this thread because we just did two 1300 km (800 mile) days, a few days apart. Over the continental divide twice. Those aren’t our longest distance trips. We do 2000 km trips every two or three months (650 mile each way, in one day each way, unless there are severe winter storms). This has continued over the last two years.

Maybe that doesn’t count as long distance driving. But they aren’t in the category of short commutes.

If we were towing on this last trip we would estimate 50% range impact, so the same as two 400 mile towing days.

The energy cost for these trips is about 1/6th of the fuel cost for a comparable vehicle.

The energy we used was 95% renewable for all but two charges in another province.

I understand that the US hit 20% of electrical generation from wind and solar in April. Progress. And California hit over 100% clean power generation in late April. Mainly solar. More progress.

No, the F150 Lightning isn’t ready for towing heavy trailers long distances. But things are moving quickly. And this new product provides a glimpse of what future products will do.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

I know you are a big EV proponent. And they clearly have a place. But I can tell you right now that in 2025 there still won’t be enough charging stations.

Right now our government can’t even address basic shortages like baby formula. I have little confidence that the government will get charging stations out to rural areas any time soon. In fact unless private industry gets it done it won’t get done, and it will only get done by private industry when it is profitable to do so.

I have never been to a government EV charging station. Every one we have used has been private.

[Classic2004]

Got a question. Where is all this extra power suppose to come from? The power grid is not able to support what we have now. Like "Green" California gets a lot of power from states with "Dirty" power stations. A "Dirty" power station was built in west Idaho for "Green" Seattle. Camp grounds can hardly support the current RV loads. How are they suppose to support Electric car recharging also. What are the total environmental cost of EV's. Lithium batteries can not be recycled, windmill blades can not be recycled along with a lot of other "Green" materials. We need to look a full life cycle cost on all products. For towing long distances an electric hybrid would be smarter, like a small diesel electric train.

[WellSaid11]

California almost reached all renewable energy recently, but in May with not much AC usage:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ement%20Monday.


California will at times be running out of electricity this summer:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...power-runs-low


More renewables, more EVs and not enough electricity. Total mess

[SWH]

Originally Posted by Classic2004

Got a question. Where is all this extra power suppose to come from? The power grid is not able to support what we have now. Like "Green" California gets a lot of power from states with "Dirty" power stations. A "Dirty" power station was built in west Idaho for "Green" Seattle. Camp grounds can hardly support the current RV loads. How are they suppose to support Electric car recharging also. What are the total environmental cost of EV's. Lithium batteries can not be recycled, windmill blades can not be recycled along with a lot of other "Green" materials. We need to look a full life cycle cost on all products. For towing long distances an electric hybrid would be smarter, like a small diesel electric train.

We figured it out when air conditioning was invented and A/C is a much bigger load at peak times. Most car charging is done overnight during periods of excess capacity and the current grid can handle a lot more. As for full cycle, think about the amount of energy it takes to pump, refine, transport and distribute gasoline… it’s enormous. And even electric vehicles charged from fossil fuel plants are much greener because the power plants are far more efficient than a car’s internal combustion engine, which are only about 20% efficient (80% energy being lost to heat). Add in the cost of ICE maintenance (engine oil and other fluid replacements, etc) and the environmental cost comparison isn’t even close: EVs are greener than ICE vehicles, and they are getting greener all the time as the grid gets greener and technology improves. Also lithium batteries can be recycled, and recycling will expand with EV sales.