Electric (F150 Ford Lightning) vs. Gas (GMC 1/2 Ton V8) Test

[Trowbridge]

For those who have been watching the emergence of electric vehicles for towing...Fascinating side by side test comparison today titled "How Far Can a Gas Truck and a Ford Lightning Go Towing a Camper With ONE Fill Up?"

Road test is of 1/2 ton electric truck (F150 Lightning) vs 1/2 ton gas on RV.com. They pulled two identical weight (6,000 lb.) trailers behind two trucks. Same route, same distance, same wind, same elevation change, same speed. They drove both rigs south on Interstate I-25, beginning at Loveland Colorado intending to finish near the end of the Lightning's estimated range near Pueblo Colorado. Total elevation change in the route they covered was around 1,000 ft...so relatively flat.

During the first part of the intended drive the Lightning was dropping 1% of its charge per mile...but then started to drop charge much more rapidly after around 50 miles. The Lightning made it a total of 75 miles and the driver had to reverse direction and drive back around 10 miles because of a 20 mile upcoming stretch of highway that lacked electric charging stations. Total mileage covered = 88 miles with 10% charge left (Lightning had changed into power saving mode with reduced power). The driver recharged the trailer at a Target charging station....ate lunch during the charge and then drove back to Loveland where he needed to recharge again. He commented that the truck and trailer were partially blocking other vehicles entering and exiting the Target parking lot and would probably have to detach the trailer to recharge at most charging locations. Total cost? (yes, it costs money to use the charging stations) = $35.

While the Lightning driver stayed behind recharging his Lightning, the gas truck driver returned back to Loveland on his original tank of gas. He arrived there and refueled 17 gallons back into his tank. Total cost? $85.

I'll comment that other gas vehicle options (or diesel ) would have been even more efficient than their test truck (new GMC 1/2 ton V8). And elevation may also have detracted from the gas truck's mileage.

Powerful comment from one of the test drivers is at the 3/4 mark in the video. He said something like, 'Until battery technology evolves much further electric is not a viable option for typical towing of this type of trailer'. He also commented that electric is only good for towing 'around a city' or short distances. He finally commented to the effect that, 'You can't even tow to a local campground outside a city unless the campground has electric charging available.'

Personal side comment here - My family's own 2004 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel would have gotten 15+ MPG (we get 21 driving without our Airstream behind) and could have towed their test trailer 250+ miles with our 32 gallon tank.

Fascinating video you can watch. Here's the link - https://www.rv.com/rv/towing/see-how...08312022&scpc=

[KK4YZ]

Yeah, I think it'll take some time before EV trucks get to the point of supporting the kind of towing I do. It'll probably get there, but how long?

[jcl]

Fully agree that BEV pickups are not there yet for towing travel trailers longer distances (and travel trailers are often used for longer distance trips, understood).

That said, there are some things that can be taken away from this test.

1) Trailers with large front areas that are not aerodynamic will suffer more range reduction. We are likely to see some shift to more aero trailers, which will also help ICE tow vehicles.

2) Travel speed is a factor when towing, and it matters more with an EV when discussing range. The test appeared to be at 65 mph in the screen shots. This likely contributed to the 2/3 range reduction when towing, in concert with the large trailer frontal area, when other tests typically show a 50% reduction in range.

3) The range estimators on EV dashboards are very much first generation, especially for towing. Tesla has made significant advances in their range estimators, but aren't focused (yet) on towing. Expect improvements with range prediction on early EV pickups, over time.

4) We could propose putting three times as much battery on the pickup, but that doesn't make much sense from an cost perspective, since the additional batteries would only be required when towing, and would be dead weight the rest of the time. It makes more sense to me to improve the trailer. The e stream is but one approach.

[hikingcamera]

Originally Posted by Trowbridge

Powerful comment from one of the test drivers is at the 3/4 mark in the video. He said something like, 'Until battery technology evolves much further electric is not a viable option for typical towing of this type of trailer'. He also commented that electric is only good for towing 'around a city' or short distances. He finally commented to the effect that, 'You can't even tow to a local campground outside a city unless the campground has electric charging available.'

Or until Airstream's eStream concept becomes mainstream.


If I were rich (and didn't care about the environmental impact of buying and owning two trucks and all those batteries) I'd love an electric pickup just for the local trips I make (including out to see the in-laws). How amazing would it be to be able to go there, cross the ferry without turning off my engine, etc. charge up while we are there, and then come back without using any electricity. I'm just hoping that by the time we are looking for a new truck, there has been some sort of technological leap that will make lugging our trailer around less impactful to our environment.


And in the meantime, when it's finally time to replace our Prius, I'll hopefully be able to do it with a small electric car for all our around the town driving.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jcl

...4) We could propose putting three times as much battery on the pickup, but that doesn't make much sense from an cost perspective, since the additional batteries would only be required when towing, and would be dead weight the rest of the time. It makes more sense to me to improve the trailer. The e stream is but one approach.

Just my armchair quarterbacking here...

If manufacturers went to a modular battery design, vehicles could be designed around battery flexibility. For most drivers, a range of 300 miles (not towing) might work. But for vehicles like a pick up truck where towing is a designed use, they could build into the chassis places to add modular batteries.

Tow regularly? Then perhaps you'd want to permanently add the max possible to extend your towing. Only tow occasionally? Stop by your dealer where you can rent the extra modular batteries for the time you need them. This could also be part of a system to do battery swapping rather than recharging. Need a recharge while on the road? Rather than spending 30-45 minutes plugged in, just swap out your modular batteries for a fully-charged set.

While the e-Stream is a novel approach to extending the towing range of an EV, it has to be acknowledged that there will be traditional trailers which need to be towed far into the future. With that being the case, finding a way to extend the towing range of the tow vehicle itself is going to be required before BEVs can fill the needs of all sectors of the pickup truck market.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Just my armchair quarterbacking here...

If manufacturers went to a modular battery design, vehicles could be designed around battery flexibility. For most drivers, a range of 300 miles (not towing) might work. But for vehicles like a pick up truck where towing is a designed use, they could build into the chassis places to add modular batteries.

Tow regularly? Then perhaps you'd want to permanently add the max possible to extend your towing. Only tow occasionally? Stop by your dealer where you can rent the extra modular batteries for the time you need them. This could also be part of a system to do battery swapping rather than recharging. Need a recharge while on the road? Rather than spending 30-45 minutes plugged in, just swap out your modular batteries for a fully-charged set.

While the e-Stream is a novel approach to extending the towing range of an EV, it has to be acknowledged that there will be traditional trailers which need to be towed far into the future. With that being the case, finding a way to extend the towing range of the tow vehicle itself is going to be required before BEVs can fill the needs of all sectors of the pickup truck market.

A similar argument could be made for a cellphone having replaceable batteries. When it goes flat, just pop in some AAAs. But we don't do that. There are good reasons why we don't.

We have many places to charge. And if we have a real requirement for extended use without a charge point, we use a separate battery pack that can quick recharge the phone.

Same for a vehicle. Why compromise the design of the vehicle, with lower performance and more cost, just for the chance that some users may occasionally require more battery capacity when towing? Why wouldn't the additional battery capacity be on the trailer?

[RedSHED]

sigh. When the operator's hours of service expire, the driver stops until the clock is reset. If no charge point exists at that location, the operator will have to wait until "on duty" again, go to a charge station, and recharge while eating the clock. Even beyond hours of operation considerations, the probability that X-mart or Z-Mazon is going to put hundreds of charge points at their warehouses is pretty low. There may be a couple for any day cabs owned by the warehouse operator.
And ag ... when it's time to plant or time to harvest, some operators go essentially 24/7, in shifts. Dragging the combine and/or tractor back 20 miles to the nearest charge point is a non starter, although an extra quarter mil of capital could probably get a large enough generator on site to take some of the pain out of it. Or they can just grow fewer crops. It's not a trivial or one-size-fits-all kind of problem set. Importantly, some of the vehicles we use as tow vehicles are also in vocational use in those ways in those industries.

BEV is not the be-all and end-all of solutions. It's wonderful as a partial solution, as part of an integrated set of solutions, but it isn't the sole path forward.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jcl

A similar argument could be made for a cellphone having replaceable batteries. When it goes flat, just pop in some AAAs. But we don't do that. There are good reasons why we don't.

We have many places to charge. And if we have a real requirement for extended use without a charge point, we use a separate battery pack that can quick recharge the phone.

Same for a vehicle. Why compromise the design of the vehicle, with lower performance and more cost, just for the chance that some users may occasionally require more battery capacity when towing? Why wouldn't the additional battery capacity be on the trailer?

I think you missed my point.

But first, until recently cell phones did allow batteries to be swapped. Many people carried an extra cell phone battery so they could extend their phones useful time off the charger and get through the day. Never saw anyone use AAA batteries, but I did see many swapping batteries.

As a matter of fact, there were even some with modular batteries like I'm suggesting for BEVs, where the user could substitute the battery and phone's back cover and install a larger battery and cover. And then there were the cases with built in batteries - essentially an add-on modular battery.

When cell phone manufacturers finally figured out how to make a cell phone with a battery that could last the day, they were able to eliminate replaceable batteries.

Back to BEVs -

Originally Posted by jcl

...Same for a vehicle. Why compromise the design of the vehicle, with lower performance and more cost, just for the chance that some users may occasionally require more battery capacity when towing? ...

I was suggesting that modular batteries would be the design - not a compromise. There is more than enough real estate in a full-sized pickup to have more batteries. They don't put them in to keep costs down. For customers who don't need the extra range or who don't plan to do towing, the stock battery bank is okay. I'm suggesting that with modular batteries it would be possible to give customers the option of adding more and extending the range for towing. Not sure how this does anything to lessen the design of the truck.

Originally Posted by jcl

...Why wouldn't the additional battery capacity be on the trailer?

As I mentioned earlier, traditional (non-electric) trailers are going to be around for a long time. You might see some newer trailers being sold with batteries and maybe even a live drive axle, but there are millions of trailers on the road today - everything from landscape trailers to travel trailers to cargo trailer. These trailers will still need to be towed after the big switch to BEV pickups.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

I was suggesting that modular batteries would be the design - not a compromise. There is more than enough real estate in a full-sized pickup to have more batteries. They don't put them in to keep costs down. For customers who don't need the extra range or who don't plan to do towing, the stock battery bank is okay. I'm suggesting that with modular batteries it would be possible to give customers the option of adding more and extending the range for towing. Not sure how this does anything to lessen the design of the truck.

As I mentioned earlier, traditional (non-electric) trailers are going to be around for a long time. You might see some newer trailers being sold with batteries and maybe even a live drive axle, but there are millions of trailers on the road today - everything from landscape trailers to travel trailers to cargo trailer. These trailers will still need to be towed after the big switch to BEV pickups.

It isn't a real estate issue, it is a weight issue. My 75 kWh battery weighs 1200 lbs. I have read that the Ford Lightning battery weighs 1800 lbs, which seems logical.

To carry one or two extra batteries will require spare payload of 1800 - 3600 lbs. Plus the additional structure to support that weight, and the mechanism to allow for battery swap outs. Probably need a larger on board charger as well, or charge times would be doubled or tripled. Batteries will be improved over the coming years, certainly, but this is at least a starting point calculation.

All of this additional truck spec costs money, and compromises the design of the truck for non towing uses.

Towing doesn't require additional battery for vehicle range due to additional weight as much as it does additional air resistance. So the logical place for the additional battery is on the trailer, the source of the additional air resistance.

This wouldn't be required for most trailers, just those that are intended to be used for 300 + mile days. All local towing, such as to the boat launch or landscape job, can likely be accommodated with currently available EV trucks.

While the existing fleet of trailers is going to be around for some years, so is the existing fleet of pickups. This isn't a problem to focus on now. But it does suggest that something is going to have to change in the coming decade. Airstreams were designed to be towed by the family car, and that is the paradigm that has to change, as the design of the family vehicle changes. I think Airstream and other trailer manufacturers are on the right track, looking at how they could adapt trailer design to solve the problem themselves, instead of hoping that a vehicle manufacturer solves it for them.

[JJTX]

Battery operated vehicles are worthless tow vehicles. Period.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by jcl

Fully agree that BEV pickups are not there yet for towing travel trailers longer distances (and travel trailers are often used for longer distance trips, understood).

That said, there are some things that can be taken away from this test.

1) Trailers with large front areas that are not aerodynamic will suffer more range reduction. We are likely to see some shift to more aero trailers, which will also help ICE tow vehicles.

2) Travel speed is a factor when towing, and it matters more with an EV when discussing range. The test appeared to be at 65 mph in the screen shots. This likely contributed to the 2/3 range reduction when towing, in concert with the large trailer frontal area, when other tests typically show a 50% reduction in range.

3) The range estimators on EV dashboards are very much first generation, especially for towing. Tesla has made significant advances in their range estimators, but aren't focused (yet) on towing. Expect improvements with range prediction on early EV pickups, over time.

4) We could propose putting three times as much battery on the pickup, but that doesn't make much sense from an cost perspective, since the additional batteries would only be required when towing, and would be dead weight the rest of the time. It makes more sense to me to improve the trailer. The e stream is but one approach.

1. The frontal area of travel trailers is not new. It has reduced ICE mpg for decades. While it seems to affect BEVs more, it is common to every tow vehicle. You did address that, however.

2. Towing speed of 65 mph is a problem? What speed should you tow a travel trailer to get acceptable range, 45 mph? That will make you real popular.

3. Vehicle range estimators? Good luck with reliability. What about out west, where you don't have a connection in large areas? If the range estimator can't download the data, you are out of luck, big time.

4. I agree with you on this one about increasing batteries in the tow vehicle. However, I don't think modifying the trailer is a solution.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by jcl

A similar argument could be made for a cellphone having replaceable batteries. When it goes flat, just pop in some AAAs. But we don't do that. There are good reasons why we don't.

My first cell phone in the early to mid-90's had a removable battery. I bought an extended life battery as a spare. It was twice the size, but fit on the phone just fine. It just made the phone a lot deeper. Young people may not realize that the non-removable batteries in cell phones today are a recent development.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

1. The frontal area of travel trailers is not new. It has reduced ICE mpg for decades. While it seems to affect BEVs more, it is common to every tow vehicle. You did address that, however.

2. Towing speed of 65 mph is a problem? What speed should you tow a travel trailer to get acceptable range, 45 mph? That will make you real popular.

3. Vehicle range estimators? Good luck with reliability. What about out west, where you don't have a connection in large areas? If the range estimator can't download the data, you are out of luck, big time.

4. I agree with you on this one about increasing batteries in the tow vehicle. However, I don't think modifying the trailer is a solution.

The ICE pickup in the test was getting 7 mpg towing at the start. That appears to be a similar range reduction compared to non towing, maybe a few percentage points better. The difference is that the vehicle has more range to start.

My towing is more often at 60. I wouldn't be going under 55. The tests that showed a 50% range reduction, prior to this test, were likely running 55 or so, not 65.

Vehicle range estimators don't need continuous data connections. They need a GPS, to know where one is. I have a range estimator outside of cell phone range, I just don't get traffic congestion updates. The maps and data are stored on the vehicle. That said, my vehicle is about to get direct vehicle to satellite coverage to fill in the areas without cell phone coverage.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

My first cell phone in the early to mid-90's had a removable battery. I bought an extended life battery as a spare. It was twice the size, but fit on the phone just fine. It just made the phone a lot deeper. Young people may not realize that the non-removable batteries in cell phones today are a recent development.

My first mobile phone had a removable battery as well. Long time ago. Maybe cell phones aren't a good example. My laptop computer doesn't have a swappable battery, but I can use a Mophie power pack to extend the operating time.

I just think that if you want to optimize the battery powered device, you build for the masses, and then have an external solution for the 5% that need it.

[skyguyscott]

Tesla is starting to install more pull through charging stations to allow TVs with trailers to charge without having to unhitch. they are planning to install these pull through charging stations at many many more locations.

Further, they are researching on methods to allow an 80% recharge in about 10 minutes, comparable to the time it would take at a conventional gas pump for ice vehicles. They expect to have this capability online in about five years.

With this approach, the thinking is that rather than put more battery capacity in vehicles, which would increase the cost of the vehicle and make it somewhat less efficient with the added weight, they would instead keep the battery capacity the same, lower the cost, lower the weight, and let those on long towing trips quickly recharge enroute.

I would imagine that just as some people can purchase an ice truck with an optional larger or second gas tank, there would be some buyers who would up for a larger, heavier, battery bank. However, those buyers would be relatively rare. They would be those who frequently do long hauls or are Boondocking for extended periods of time

I would also note that Tesla battery range and technology is considerably farther along than that of Ford or other competitors and the long anticipated much delayed cyber truck, which is expected to enter production sometime next year, plans an upper end model with a 500 mile range (non-towing)

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Just my armchair quarterbacking here...

If manufacturers went to a modular battery design, vehicles could be designed around battery flexibility. For most drivers, a range of 300 miles (not towing) might work. But for vehicles like a pick up truck where towing is a designed use, they could build into the chassis places to add modular batteries.

Tow regularly? Then perhaps you'd want to permanently add the max possible to extend your towing. Only tow occasionally? Stop by your dealer where you can rent the extra modular batteries for the time you need them. This could also be part of a system to do battery swapping rather than recharging. Need a recharge while on the road? Rather than spending 30-45 minutes plugged in, just swap out your modular batteries for a fully-charged set.

While the e-Stream is a novel approach to extending the towing range of an EV, it has to be acknowledged that there will be traditional trailers which need to be towed far into the future. With that being the case, finding a way to extend the towing range of the tow vehicle itself is going to be required before BEVs can fill the needs of all sectors of the pickup truck market.

Just posted about a new company called VinFast, where they offer a battery subscription program for their new SUV's and also for other SOB EV vehicle batteries sounds like.
https://vinfastauto.ca/en/battery-subscription

Your ahead of your time, Richard!

[gypsydad]

The other question, (which did apply to Cell Phone batteries); are all the EV batteries compatible or universal? In other words, "if" they are not compatible with your EVTV, once again, we will have the "out of stock" or "we don't carry that model" issue...am I missing something?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Just posted about a new company called VinFast, where they offer a battery subscription program for their new SUV's and also for other SOB EV vehicle batteries sounds like.
https://vinfastauto.ca/en/battery-subscription

You’re ahead of your time, Richard!

Vinfast is not offering vehicles with swappable batteries in lieu of charging. Their electric vehicles are charged the usual way.

The subscription is akin to purchasing a GM pickup without an engine, and leasing the engine from GM. The truck price would be lower. Battery lease rates would be per mile or unlimited. Engines would only be changed out in GM service centres. For those concerned about ultimate engine life, it would be a way of insuring against engine failure. But it isn’t like you would have them install different engines for different trips.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

The other question, (which did apply to Cell Phone batteries); are all the EV batteries compatible or universal? In other words, "if" they are not compatible with your EVTV, once again, we will have the "out of stock" or "we don't carry that model" issue...am I missing something?

Technology is developing too quickly for that type of standardization. EVs generally use proprietary battery packs for each model. The packs are made up of battery cells, of which there are far fewer variations.

There are aftermarket batteries already available.

Our EV is two years old. The latest model has a battery with the same specs. However, the latest cells have significantly more capacity in the same space. Range would go from 500 km to 700 km.

I don’t foresee replacing our battery due to it wearing out, but I can foresee buying a battery upgrade at some point, and selling our current battery.

[gypsydad]

Headlines today:

California Asks Residents to Avoid AC, Charging Electric Vehicles