Battery Options - Lifeline

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by waninae39

we replaced ours with Lion Batteries. They are great

we used BattleBorn 100ah.
though the cost may seem high, the TCO (total cost of operation) over 5-6 years is on par with AGM and lead acid batteries

as well the Lion can be used down to 20%, the AGM/Lead acid ones have a permanent lifetime battery degradation if our 50% capacity is used

plus they are small and weigh less
we move our BB to the inside, thus also reduced tough weight

Well.... I hope that that 20% thingy is real world and not ad hype...so far Im not sure, waiting to hear from BB CS..,

Bob
🇺🇸

[davidz71]

I reported back in 2011 that I had a single group 27 Trojan deep cycle battery that was 5 years old. A year or so later my Progressive Dynamics 45 amp converter (previously rebuilt at the factory when the previous owner sent it back) bit the dust and fried that battery while plugged into shore power for 5 days on a fishing trip. I replaced the PD unit with a 55 amp version of the same unit and bought two of the group 27 115 amp hr batteries. I hooked up one for the rest of the trip and when I got back home bought an aluminum Armor RV battery box. I had it mounted across the frame rails behind the covered propane tanks. I installed new longer battery cables after detaching those running inside the trailer. Those batteries are now about 6 years old and are charged 95% of the time by my 265 watt AM Solar panels. While they are about the best in the wet cell line at around $185 or more per battery, I am sold on them. You have a number of alternatives open to you such as external battery box with larger batteries mentioned by someone previously or even going to two 6 volt batteries with higher amp hr per battery and adding a higher lip on top of your battery box. I remember seeing a thread where someone did that to accommodate the higher profile of the 6 volt batteries. Why Airstream still puts group 24 batteries in their trailers is beyond me other than keeping cost down.

[MontyV]

I have not found lifelines to be worth the money. I used them on our yacht. no greater life than trojan. I would go to costco or sams for TT batteries.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by MontyV

I have not found lifelines to be worth the money. I used them on our yacht. no greater life than trojan. I would go to costco or sams for TT batteries.

POI...they did run our furnace at 36* ambient and 68* stat for 1.5 days. See the screenshots...starting at 88% and ending at 51% SOC & voltage match pretty well. 100ah consumption matches pretty well.

The second test I ran was at a constant 5.4a draw, thats when the anomaly between SOC and battery voltage appeared.

Bob
🇺🇸

[gator.bigfoot]

Originally Posted by MontyV

I have not found lifelines to be worth the money. I used them on our yacht. no greater life than trojan. I would go to costco or sams for TT batteries.

I got 9 years out of them so to me they're worth every penny. I bought another set and added 2 more. Yes Trojans will last as long, but the Lifelines fit into the classics front compartment so that made it an easy decision to reorder the same battery. Cost I don't think was that much different. Plus the Lifelines allow equalization of the battery where no other battery manufacturer at the time said it was possible. But then again I was equalizing the batteries before Lifeline said it was possible. All AGMs are lead acid based so equalization should be done to them all. For 4 batteries I paid around 1200 and that is 420AH. At 50% that's still 210Ah. More than what I need. We'll see if in 9 more years people are still putting in lithiums. There's new technology coming out all the time so I think there's going to be more choices by then. With progress that lithiums have in the last decade I'm holding out for cheaper and better things to come.

[Paprika]

Originally Posted by waninae39

AGM/Lead acid [batteries] have a permanent lifetime battery degradation if our 50% capacity is used

That's a common misconception. The fact is that there's no magic percentage below which permanent damage is done. Have a look at the Lifeline Battery Technical Manual. On the very last page you'll find a graph showing the relationship between depth of discharge and number of lifetime charge/discharge cycles.

Notice that there is no "knee" in the curve at 50%. If you never discharge below 90% (10% depth of discharge, as shown on the graph), you can get 5,000 cycles. If you consistently discharge to 10% (90% DoD), you'll be lucky to get 500 cycles. In between it's a pretty smooth slope. There's no sudden drop-off.

Moreover, battery manufacturers will tell you that discharging below 50% once or twice probably won't cause permanent damage to an AGM battery as long as you don't leave it in that state for days, but instead promptly recharge it. AGM batteries, unlike LiFePO4 batteries, really like to be charged to 100% on a regular basis.

In short, the widely cited 50% rule is an oversimplification so gross that it's meaningless. Now, it is true that LiFePO4 batteries can be discharged to lower levels without causing as much shortening of their lifespans... but they are not completely immune. Lithium batteries that are never discharged below 80% will last longer than those that are regularly discharged to 20%.

Bottom line: we're talking electrochemistry here, folks. Nothing is simple; nothing is clear-cut; nothing is black and white.

[pteck]

^Yes. Spot on. Much more learning to be done on these forums as misconceptions get taken as realities. There's some truth to both sides.

Part of the reality is that most flooded starter/hybrid/deepcycle batts, really don't have great cycle life to begin with and deep cycling is not their forte.

The other part is that there are distinctly deep cycle capable lead acid batts, such as 6V flooded golf cart batts and AGM deep cycle batts that can be deep cycled regularly, and still provide great life. Deep cycling them on occasion won't even cause them flinch.

What you don't want ever to do is flat out completely discharge them to 0 and past. Flooded, AGM, LifeP04, etc. That's a certain death sentence.

Given the above, comparing Battleborn LifePO4 vs 6V golf cart batts (or 12V AGMS). It's not even a comparison really. BB's have 100Ah capacity before you are absolutely cut off. Versus lead acids that have 220+Ah. 80% discharge is wholly reasonable on these which means 180Ah, with 40Ah further in reserve!

No one ever wants to run a BB near it's stated capacity, less they want their furnace to cut off in the middle of the night, with no reserve use capability. Therefore, it's 2x BB's at $2k + ancillary upgrades, before it's even a comparison. $2k investment to match functional capacity? No thanks.

[Gene]

The Lifelines I had in our 25FB were still good at 7 years when we sold the trailer. They were better in keeping a charge when boondocking. At the same time I put them in, I replaced the cheap stock converter to one with three stage charging. The stock batteries only lasted a bit less than three years. The 12 v. Lifelines only fit into the box when I cut away some of the lip on the top of the box. I think they were series 27, not the 24's it came with. Six volt Lifelines were too high to fit in the box and I didn't want to change the box.

Our present trailer has a brand I have forgotten the name of and it is dark out, so I am not going to look at them now. They cost as much as Lifelines, are AGM's and have worked fine, but they are only a year old. Six volt fit in these boxes. You can look around for Lifelines and some discounts are available. I would have gotten them for the new trailer, except I ran out of time for delivery because they weren't stocked locally.

Even if you never boondock, batteries are used while you travel for the fridge and other electronics, fans, propane detector and some other hidden loads. You never know when you sill need to boondocks, such as at parks and Walmarts. If you have a stock converter, either replace it with a good one or buy cheap batteries because frying an expensive battery is too expensive.

[68 Overlander]

Fullriver is getting most of the love from from the Marine industry on AGM batteries these days and they are almost neck and neck with Lifeline sales on the RV and Fleet vehicle sales. They are certainly good batteries and have a better warranty.
I would question BB LiFePO4 if their BMS is not serviceable. That is going to be the new marketing standard for 2019. So far Expion360 is leading that and will be a 120 AH in a group 24 size case. We will have both and let you all decide.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Paprika

Could you explain why...
"really like to be charged to 100% on a regular basis unlike LiFePO4 batteries"

Why wouldn't you want to charge a back to 100%? Makes little sense.

Bob
🇺🇸

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Paprika

Could you explain why...
"really like to be charged to 100% on a regular basis unlike LiFePO4 batteries"

Why wouldn't you want to charge a back to 100%? Makes little sense.

Bob
🇺🇸

Hi

One theory is that when you take most lithium's to full voltage (and thus absolute full charge) you are engaging the equalization side of the BMS. That may stress things a bit more than a 9x% charge and really is not needed very often.

The other side is that any battery (not just lithium) at absolute full charge is on the brink (or past the point) of the charge current turning the innards into gas. When that happens there is a chance of venting and loosing part of what you should have inside the battery.

Since you are in the 98% or better range on a lithium at 13.6V and only get into crazy land up past 14V (12V battery), it's pretty easy to stay away from all of these issues without really impacting the amount of power you have rolling down the road.

Bob

[Paprika]

"Why wouldn't you want to charge a [LiFePO4 battery] back to 100%? Makes little sense."

It's not that you should never fully charge them. But there's a pretty general consensus among lithium batteries' makers that keeping lithium batteries "topped off" at 100% daily--a regimen that AGMs thrive on--leads to reduced capacity. What I've read is that LiFePO4 batteries are happiest when operated in the 20%-80% range, with charging to 100% every few weeks to ensure the cells are balanced.

This was something I had a lot of trouble getting my head around when I switched to Victron lithium batteries after a dozen years of relying on Lifeline AGMs. I still have to fight my tendency to want to get them up to 100% every day, so strongly are my lead-acid habits ingrained!

[EarlM]

Will they take a charge in cold weather

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

POI...they did run our furnace at 36* ambient and 68* stat for 1.5 days. See the screenshots...starting at 88% and ending at 51% SOC & voltage match pretty well. 100ah consumption matches pretty well.

The second test I ran was at a constant 5.4a draw, thats when the anomaly between SOC and battery voltage appeared.

Bob
🇺🇸

BB...returned my CS email with a phone call this morning,
My own dumb fault...I adjusted the new Boondocker to 14.4v but neglected to set it to 'fixed output'.
The BB's were never at full charge regardless of what the Victron said.🙄

Bob
🇺🇸

[Paprika]

By the way, it's clear from reading this or almost any thread about batteries that people's experiences vary widely, even when discussing the same brand and model of battery. The trouble is that there are so many variables, especially with regard to charging. For example, Airstream ships some models with Lifeline AGMs. But AGMs are fussier about charging than flooded-cell batteries. Do the converters in these rigs conform to Lifeline's recommended charging voltages? Do they have temperature compensation?

Here's a Lifeline example, since I'm most familiar with their batteries (and their documentation is excellent). They recommend absorption charging at 14.3 V and float charging at 13.3 V at 77° F. They further state that increasing the charging voltage by just one volt above the recommended voltage results in a 23% reduction in cycle life. That one volt will cut years off your batteries' lifespan. How likely is it that Parallax or whoever made the inexpensive "brown box" converter/charger in a typical Airstream has its settings exactly correct for Lifelines?

And then there's temperature. Batteries sitting in a box on the trailer's tongue--Airstream's standard installation--are subject to wide temperature variations. But the typical converter is blissfully ignorant of the batteries' actual temperature. On a cold morning, your batteries could easily be at 40°*F. or less. Your converter, sitting inside where it's cozy, may be at 75°. If you look at Lifeline's charging recommendations (p. 19 in the battery manual I linked to in an earlier post), you'll find that at 40° your Lifelines want to see 14.9 V while absorbing and 13.9 V while floating, instead of 14.3 V/13.3 V. So your nice warm converter will be seriously undercharging your cold batteries. The solution is for the charger to have a temperature probe on the battery, and to constantly adjust its charging voltages according to the battery's actual temperature. But most converters don't bother to do this.

Another example: many solar charging controllers, including some of Victron's affordable models, claim to have temperature compensation... but they use a temp sensor inside the controller rather than on the battery. Since the controller heats up in use, that obviously would give inaccurate results. Victron attempts to get around this by checking the temperature first thing in the morning, when light first hits the panels, and using that to determine charging voltages for the rest of the day.

OK, but consider: your batteries start out cold in the morning and warm up in the course of the day. With Victron's scheme, the controller will be using cold-optimized (meaning higher) charging voltages throughout the day. AGMs hate to be overcharged, so this is a recipe for shortened battery life. (Victron's new Smart Battery Sense device is their attempt to get around this.) Other converter, charger, and solar controller manufacturers have other temp-comp schemes. Some get it right; some don't bother.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. It's probably safe to say that few Airstreams leave the factory with charging setups that are best for the batteries they ship with. (And that's not even considering the ones whose batteries are dead on arrival, because the dealerships boiled them dry or let them run down on the lot.) Now add in scenarios such as owners switching from flooded-cell batteries to AGMs (which have different charging characteristics), or to lithium-ion batteries (which are even more different), and you have plenty of reasons why people's experiences with batteries vary so widely.

[Paprika]

"Will they take a charge in cold weather"

If you're talking about LiFePO4 batteries, the rule of thumb I see most often is "don't charge lithiums below freezing," but Victron for one recommends not charging them below 5° C./41°*F. It isn't just a question of whether they'll take a charge. Reportedly, trying to charge them at temperatures at or near freezing will permanently damage them. Given how expensive lithium batteries are, that's something to be avoided at all costs.

There are several ways to deal with this. You can move the batteries indoors (e.g., under the bed), where they'll likely stay warmer than in a tongue-mounted battery box. You can have the battery management system (BMS) cut off the batteries when they get too cold... but that means your lights, fridge, furnace, and so on will stop working. You can design a system that has separate load and charging buses, so that the BMS can cut off charging while still letting the batteries supply power. I have even heard of people using "battery heaters," but that seems wasteful of energy.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by Paprika

What I've read is that LiFePO4 batteries are happiest when operated in the 20%-80% range, with charging to 100% every few weeks to ensure the cells are balanced.

This is right. It's a function of the battery chemistry where it's most stable. For lead acid batts, their happy place is topped off with regular floating and equalization.

Lithiums and LiFePO4's, are happiest in the mid-upper state of charge range. And will prematurely wear when near 100% SOC.

Yet for RV use, one wants to keep batts as close to 100% as possible when charging is available, in order to maximize reserve capacity when then sun goes down or it's time to unplug.

So many factors. Sometimes, the traditional easy solution may be better.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Paprika

By the way, it's clear from reading this or almost any thread about batteries that people's experiences vary widely, even when discussing the same brand and model of battery. The trouble is that there are so many variables, especially with regard to charging. For example, Airstream ships some models with Lifeline AGMs. But AGMs are fussier about charging than flooded-cell batteries. Do the converters in these rigs conform to Lifeline's recommended charging voltages? Do they have temperature compensation?

Here's a Lifeline example, since I'm most familiar with their batteries (and their documentation is excellent). They recommend absorption charging at 14.3 V and float charging at 13.3 V at 77° F. They further state that increasing the charging voltage by just one volt above the recommended voltage results in a 23% reduction in cycle life. That one volt will cut years off your batteries' lifespan. How likely is it that Parallax or whoever made the inexpensive "brown box" converter/charger in a typical Airstream has its settings exactly correct for Lifelines?

And then there's temperature. Batteries sitting in a box on the trailer's tongue--Airstream's standard installation--are subject to wide temperature variations. But the typical converter is blissfully ignorant of the batteries' actual temperature. On a cold morning, your batteries could easily be at 40°*F. or less. Your converter, sitting inside where it's cozy, may be at 75°. If you look at Lifeline's charging recommendations (p. 19 in the battery manual I linked to in an earlier post), you'll find that at 40° your Lifelines want to see 14.9 V while absorbing and 13.9 V while floating, instead of 14.3 V/13.3 V. So your nice warm converter will be seriously undercharging your cold batteries. The solution is for the charger to have a temperature probe on the battery, and to constantly adjust its charging voltages according to the battery's actual temperature. But most converters don't bother to do this.

Another example: many solar charging controllers, including some of Victron's affordable models, claim to have temperature compensation... but they use a temp sensor inside the controller rather than on the battery. Since the controller heats up in use, that obviously would give inaccurate results. Victron attempts to get around this by checking the temperature first thing in the morning, when light first hits the panels, and using that to determine charging voltages for the rest of the day.

OK, but consider: your batteries start out cold in the morning and warm up in the course of the day. With Victron's scheme, the controller will be using cold-optimized (meaning higher) charging voltages throughout the day. AGMs hate to be overcharged, so this is a recipe for shortened battery life. (Victron's new Smart Battery Sense device is their attempt to get around this.) Other converter, charger, and solar controller manufacturers have other temp-comp schemes. Some get it right; some don't bother.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. It's probably safe to say that few Airstreams leave the factory with charging setups that are best for the batteries they ship with. (And that's not even considering the ones whose batteries are dead on arrival, because the dealerships boiled them dry or let them run down on the lot.) Now add in scenarios such as owners switching from flooded-cell batteries to AGMs (which have different charging characteristics), or to lithium-ion batteries (which are even more different), and you have plenty of reasons why people's experiences with batteries vary so widely.

Hi

Actually the stock chargers in an AS are a pretty good match for what an AGM is looking for. They aren't temperature compensated, but neither are the units that 99% of the people put in when they swap them out.

Bob

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

BB...returned my CS email with a phone call this morning,
My own dumb fault...I adjusted the new Boondocker to 14.4v but neglected to set it to 'fixed output'.
The BB's were never at full charge regardless of what the Victron said.🙄

Bob
🇺🇸

Hi

Gee ... that sounds *very* familiar. My "fixed output Lithium charger" came from the factory with the switch set to variable output. I wonder if there is a pattern here? .....

Bob

[JanMark]

Originally Posted by Trailbob

I use Lifeline 6V batteries, but we boondock a lot. If you don't do this type of camping much, and usually have shore power, you would be well served by two Interstate, Costco, Walmart, etc "RV/Deepcycle Marine" group 24 batteries. They are way less expensive and will still work fine for for occasional boondocking.

In my early years of RVing, I "killed" several batteries by my lack of knowledge. But after many mistakes, and a lot of study (including this forum), I now care for my batteries much better and get many years of service from them. My original AS batteries were group 24 Interstates. They were still going strong after 3 years when I changed over to the Lifelines.

How much longer do your 6V run while boondoocking as compared to the 12V system? Your personal estimate is what I’m after, not a scientific review!