Battery Options - Lifeline

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by JanMark

How much longer do your 6V run while boondoocking as compared to the 12V system? Your personal estimate is what I’m after, not a scientific review!

I can share my experience on this subject. I special ordered my 2017 FC25FB from the factory and picked it up within days of it being delivered to my dealer. Therefore my batteries were as fresh as possible when purchased. I used my Airstream about 100 days in its first 300 days and it was used at minimum one weekend per month. At that time I rarely boondocked. By my 100th day of use, my batteries were shot. They would not last a weekend with extreme conservation and no furnace use while boondocking. Even when new, the batteries struggled to last overnight with the furnace running when boondocking. At 10 months of age, I used my stock batteries for core exchanges on a set of 6V golf cart batteries.

The 6V golf cart batteries were a huge improvement! I no longer had to use extreme conservation measures. I could run the furnace all night without concern. This upgrade made my Airstream useful.

Then I added 400W of solar with the 6V golf cart batteries. Now we can use our Airstream without any conservation. We can watch TV all day, heat our Airstream all night, use a hairdryer for five minutes daily, use a vacuum cleaner and still have battery power to spare as long as we get some sunshine. On overcast days, we need to conserve only on TV usage. Now we always boondock and never charge with shore power.

My 6V golf cart batteries are now about the same age as my stock batteries. We’ve used them for 100 nights of boondocking over six months and they are still running as strong as the day we installed them. We are now completely satisfied with our Airstream’s electrical system. A set of true deep-cell batteries, either Lifelines or 6V golf cart batteries, will greatly improve your boondocking experience and adding 400W of solar will completely transform your experience.

[SilverHouseDreams]

What often gets left out in this 6V vs 12V,
AGM vs wet vs LiFePO4 discussions is actual battery capacity. There is nothing magical about a 6V battery that “makes it last longer”...it is exactly the same as a 12V battery. Rather than being 6 cells, it takes up the same space with 3 cells within the case. This simply allows each cell to have more capacity, however it doesn’t mean that a pair of batteries necessarily has greater capacity.

Anyone telling you that they get “more days” because they switched to 6V batteries is failing to tell the full story.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by SilverHouseDreams

What often gets left out in this 6V vs 12V,
AGM vs wet vs LiFePO4 discussions is actual battery capacity. There is nothing magical about a 6V battery that “makes it last longer”...it is exactly the same as a 12V battery. Rather than being 6 cells, it takes up the same space with 3 cells within the case. This simply allows each cell to have more capacity, however it doesn’t mean that a pair of batteries necessarily has greater capacity.

Anyone telling you that they get “more days” because they switched to 6V batteries is failing to tell the full story.

Plus...what happens if one of your 'trojans' springs a leak, will anything work? 😳
Bob
🇺🇸

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by SilverHouseDreams

What often gets left out in this 6V vs 12V,
AGM vs wet vs LiFePO4 discussions is actual battery capacity. There is nothing magical about a 6V battery that “makes it last longer”...it is exactly the same as a 12V battery. Rather than being 6 cells, it takes up the same space with 3 cells within the case. This simply allows each cell to have more capacity, however it doesn’t mean that a pair of batteries necessarily has greater capacity.

Anyone telling you that they get “more days” because they switched to 6V batteries is failing to tell the full story.

Here is the full story from a battery expert. https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/

Read the link and decide for yourself if there is a difference.

[SilverHouseDreams]

Originally Posted by AirMiles

Here is the full story from a battery expert. https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/



Read the link and decide for yourself if there is a difference.

Not sure what I am expected to learn from that. Battery chemistry, cell type and capacity matter (and of course how capacity is defined). But the voltage of the pack means jack squat. 200Ah in 2 6V (200Ah each) batteries is no more magical than 200Ah in 2 12V (100Ah each) batteries.

Cell type matters as it impact the safe depth of discharge, and the number of cycle count at a given cycle depth without degradation in capacity. But cell type doesn’t magically change the how many amp hours or days you can boondock on the battery.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Batteries have ratings on them. The ratings are in amp hours and tell how much energy they will store. A 200 amp hour battery stack has more energy in it than a 180 amp hour stack. It's not in any way magic.

Batteries have charging requirements that should be observed. If you decide to go with T-105's from Trojan, be very sure to observe their very unique charging needs. A stock charger at the default settings is not what they want you to use.

Maintenance matters on any battery. If you handle them wrong, *you* will damage them. Once damaged, they are not going to do well for you. Yes, that is tough to face up to. A lot of comparisons get made here. How many are to user damaged batteries ... very hard to prove.

With any battery setup, there are a typical / rated number of cycles you can expect to get out of them. The heavier rate you charge or discharge (C/1 vs C/5) them at the shorter their life. The deeper you cycle them (80% vs 50%) the shorter their life. The gotcha is that "typical" is just that. The exact battery you bought may be worse than typical (50% are) or better than typical (the other 50%).

It is incredibly rare to see anybody actually *measure* battery capacity. Yes, there *is* a thread running right now on this, but it's rare. We talk about "fine with me" or "never had a problem". Is a battery at 80% capacity "fine"? How about a battery at 50% capacity? Is it ok as long as a cell does not short? (which seems to be the way many look at it). What's fine with one person likely isn't going to be fine with another ...

Lots of variables and not a lot of data ....

Bob

[blkmagikca]

Originally Posted by Don McKelvay

We were faced with what to do when our 4 group 27 Lifelines which I thought were about 8-10 years old died. Wrong- they turned out to be 15 years old. Can you imagine them ONLY lasting 15 years? Perhaps our solar panels really helped a lot.
Anyway, given we are in Canada and prices are higher, I checked out new Lifelines which were $566 CDN + shipping each! After extensive searching and research I bought Fullriver AGMs for $340 and picked them up in Regina, SK. I believe they will do just as well as the Lifelines.

Hi Don (long time no see you & Cathy)

We also went with Full River AGM's (got them from Discount Solar in Quartzsite). They are every bit as good as Lifelines and actually have a longer warranty period. The thing to remember is that at rest fully charged the voltage is 12.89 VDC. So if you have a Bogard Tri-Metric monitor, you need to program the full charge voltage as 12.9V.

Howard

[AirMiles]

Agreed Bob! Lots of variables and not much data. And also no industry standards. A battery manufacturer can slap a deep cycle sticker on any battery due to the lack of standards. Due to the lack of industry standards, battery ratings cannot be compared between manufacturers. All of this is discussed in the article linked above.

So we need to share experiences on Airforums to help others determine which battery may meet their needs. And all our needs are different. Some may only use battery power while traveling and others may never connect to shore power. Some boondockers may use 20 amps per day and others 200 amps. We can argue endlessly on which is the “best” battery because there is no “best” battery for everyone.

My battery and electrical system works perfectly for my needs. I share my experience with everyone on Airforums. I provide my actual daily usage in my Solar Show and Tell thread. Everyone can read about my system, see how it performs and decide if that system may work for them.

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

... The gotcha is that "typical" is just that. The exact battery you bought may be worse than typical (50% are) or better than typical (the other 50%).

Hi Bob, I think you are mistaken. Typical does not mean 'median' (middle number in a sorted list of numbers), but closer to the definition of 'average' (a number expressing the typical value in a set of data).

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Adventure.AS

Hi Bob, I think you are mistaken. Typical does not mean 'median' (middle number in a sorted list of numbers), but closer to the definition of 'average' (a number expressing the typical value in a set of data).

Hi

Depends entirely on how you decide to define typical. In a lot of cases, the median is used. Simply put, the number presented as "typical" often is the 50% percentile in the distribution

For something like battery life to the 80% discharge level, I think you will find that it *does* get used. . The "why" is pretty simple: They don't test the rest of the stuff to destruction, they stop the test when half have failed. (= it's cheaper / quicker / easier)

Bob

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

The gotcha is that "typical" is just that. The exact battery you bought may be worse than typical (50% are) or better than typical (the other 50%).

Originally Posted by Adventure.AS

Hi Bob, I think you are mistaken. Typical does not mean 'median' (middle number in a sorted list of numbers), but closer to the definition of 'average' (a number expressing the typical value in a set of data).

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Depends entirely on how you decide to define typical. In a lot of cases, the median is used. Simply put, the number presented as "typical" often is the 50% percentile in the distribution

For something like battery life to the 80% discharge level, I think you will find that it *does* get used. . The "why" is pretty simple: They don't test the rest of the stuff to destruction, they stop the test when half have failed. (= it's cheaper / quicker / easier)

Bob

I prefer to use common statistical or mathematical definitions so information presented is fact based rather than making it up as I go along. You are trying to make this discussion too complex.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Adventure.AS

I prefer to use common statistical or mathematical definitions so information presented is fact based rather than making it up as I go along. You are trying to make this discussion too complex.

Hi

Last time I took a statistics class median was indeed there right there in the course along with all the other stuff. It very much *is* used to define typical. Dig into battery spec testing and take a look.

Bob

[blkmagikca]

https://www.purplemath.com/modules/meanmode.htm

[SilverHouseDreams]

Another factor of these “specifications” are if they are defined and established by the engineers that produce a product, or by the marketing department. I work in high tech and that alone determines if most “specifications” have any value, and often times they do not.

[waninae39]

i have battle born LiON battery and am happy with them
i moved from Outside lead acid to inside Lion

the new lion are lighter and now closer to the AS wheels, which means a lower tongue weight and better weight distribution

some think that lion are too expensive. If you assume that they will last twice as long as the lead acid AND
they can go down to 20% capacity vs 50% of lead acid, thus you would need more AH of lead acid than Lion for the same operating conditions.
thus the price delta is small if any

CAPEX alone is rarely the right decision

TCO= CAPEX + annual OPEX

you need to calculate the Total Cost of Operation

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by waninae39

i have battle born LiON battery and am happy with them
i moved from Outside lead acid to inside Lion

the new lion are lighter and now closer to the AS wheels, which means a lower tongue weight and better weight distribution

some think that lion are too expensive. If you assume that they will last twice as long as the lead acid AND
they can go down to 20% capacity vs 50% of lead acid, thus you would need more AH of lead acid than Lion for the same operating conditions.
thus the price delta is small if any

CAPEX alone is rarely the right decision

TCO= CAPEX + annual OPEX

you need to calculate the Total Cost of Operation

I don't see how the math works out either way (capital or TCO).

For 4-year life of Group24 flooded, we're saying double that so 8-year life of the Battle Born.

Pair of flooded Group24s gives about 80AH usable... your stated 20% reserve on the Battle Borns gives about 80AH usable from a 100AH pack.

$170 for a pair of flooded Group24s from Costco, now and again in 4 years, for a total GROSS outlay of $340 over 8 years (less in real terms, since the $170 you spend 4 years from now should be discounted a bit).

$949 for the Battle Born 100AH, up-front. So even on gross outlays it's nearly 3x more expensive. I get the performance gains and better weights, etc, but I don't think you can make the case on TCO.

[SilverHouseDreams]

TCO and ROI arguments from AS owners is somewhat comical, just ask any SOB owner.

[ROBERT CROSS]

....snip
"your stated 20% reserve on the Battle Borns gives about 80AH usable from a 100AH pack."

Are you using 50ah BB's for your guesstimate?

Our's are 100ah each for 160ah useable.

Bob
🇺🇸

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

....snip
"your stated 20% reserve on the Battle Borns gives about 80AH usable from a 100AH pack."

Are you using 50ah BB's for your guesstimate?

Our's are 100ah each for 160ah useable.

Bob
🇺🇸

I'm using one 100AH pack that Battle Born lists for $949 for my guesstimate.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by DKB_SATX

I'm using one 100AH pack that Battle Born lists for $949 for my guesstimate.

Why does your rationalization use two Costco's and one BB?
I believe the OP has a 2 battery AS
Space, cost...usage?

Bob
🇺🇸