Tow Vehicle Quality Reviews?

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Rounder44

Howdy!

Been researching a new TV for my Sport 22FB.

Found all the specs and reviews but can't find long term quality and issues with each.

I've been spoiled with a series of Toyotas having over 20 years of literally 100% perfect performance, not one issue, not one minute in a shop, starts every time! Resale value on each excellent.

Research is pointing towards the F150 but are they getting 200K trouble free miles? Dodge 1500 intrigues me too but again long term quality.

Opinions welcome but looking for a good site that has say the downside of each and what I can expect after the factory warranty expires.

Being Toyota guy the Tundra makes sense but MPG and styling severely lacking. But at least its an old fashioned truck with put too much computer controlled engine performance; it should out last most of the competition but that just means I'll spend $1000's on fuel and have a 1995 looking interior unless I spend $60K....

Oh yea! Trying to keep it ~$45K if you want to chime in model wise...

Thanks,

Rounder44

Is this a joke or you simply wanted to start a thread singing the praises of Toyotas. Just buy yourself another Toyota and be done with it.
You start out praising your Toyota and questioning the quality of the Ford.
Since you opened the door, for the last twenty five years we have only used Ford F-150 through F-350 pick up trucks in our construction business as service trucks. We don't even look at trading them until 300 k plus miles. Aside from normal maintenance, wear items and an occasional fuel pump they run and run and run.

[cam0141]

I feel your pain. Lots of choices and reviews all over the place.

I too have a new 22FB Sport. The TV that I went with is a new 2018 Nissan Titan SV Midnight Edition 4x4. I liked the 5 year warranty and it had enough payload for me my wife and dog plus some cargo (But not a lot!).

I went the Nissan route because of my Scottish nature. In Canada Nissan is throwing lots of incentives at them. I got my $60K CAD retail Titan for $38K.

Like you and your Toyota's, I have had good luck and zero issues with a number of past Nissans so I was happy to get a great deal on the Titan and hopefully the luck continues.

As several have mentioned, you need to pay attention to payload more than towing capacity.

Thought I would share my towing calculations on my new Titan.

I plan on towing a Airstream 22ft Sport single axle "Bambi". It has a Unloaded Vehicle Weight (UVW) of 3,634 lbs and a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 4,500 lbs. Tongue weight is approx 12% of the trailer weight (10-15% is recommended by towing experts). I'll assume for my calculations that the trailer is loaded to GVWR and therefore has a tongue weight of 550 lbs.

My Titan has a GVWR of 7,300 lbs. A curb weight (CW) (unloaded, full of fuel, scaled, with after sale items Tonneau cover and Titan Boxes in bed) of 6,040 lbs which gives me a payload of GVWR-CW = 1,260 lbs. The truck also has a Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating of 15,300 lbs and a stated towing capacity of 9,230 lbs.

Now a bit of a guesstimate on payload. Passengers (2x adults plus dog) say 450Lbs. Cargo in the box for camping expeditions say 200 lbs for a total of 650 lbs.

A lot of numbers, I know!

The math, I'll calculate hitched up available capacities (getting a negative number is a bad thing):

Available Towing Capacity. Truck Towing Capacity minus Trailer Weight. 9,230-4,500= 4,730 lbs, so far so good.

Available GCVW. Truck GCVW minus loaded truck weight and trailer weight. 15,300 - (6,040+650) - 4,500 = 4,110 lbs, again good.

Available payload or GVWR. Truck GVWR minus loaded truck weight and tongue weight. 7,300 - (6,040+650+550) = 60lbs, hmm, pretty close to the limit!


No surprise to those in the know and experienced with towing, payload of your truck is the limiting factor not the heavily advertised towing capacity. I wouldn't want to tow more than about 5,000 lbs of RV with a Titan Crew Cab 4x4 (my opinion! let the comments rain! )

The way I look at it is, although my truck is loaded close to the max, there is plenty of power/towing capacity to haul my rig over mountains. Which is what I want living close to the Rockies.


Notes/Disclaimers:

1) I am not an expert in the world of towing, but am a Mechanical Engineer and can do math. Please do your own research and know that every situation/truck-trailer is different. I'm throwing this out there as an example of estimating the towing/payload capacity of a pickup truck nothing more.

2) This example is for rear hitch towing. Fifth wheel can be a little different as far as tongue loads.

3) The scale doesn't lie. I'm using estimated loads at a high level. Only scaling your truck and trailer together and apart will get you accurate numbers. Once the snow melts and we head out on our first trip, I'll scale my rig and post an update. We are lucky in that the highway department has a free scale close to our house.

4) Remember that if you are ever pulled onto a scale they will be looking at the GVWR of the truck and trailer and wont know or give a hoot about towing capacity. If your truck is over the GVWR as stated on the door sticker, you are going on a truck diet or leaving your trailer behind plus maybe getting a nice little fine.

5) Again I used high level numbers. Another consideration on Tongue weight is the hitch arrangement. Some of the no sway hitches can be heavy and add 100 lbs or more to your tongue weight. Also weight distribution hitches will have an impact as well as how you load your trailer. See number 3.

6) I got my curb weight on a scale. If you don't have easy access to one you can use the GVWR minus the payload capacity as shown on the tire sicker on the door. In my case the scale was within 10 lbs of the calculated curb weight.

7) See number 1.

Good luck!

[guskmg]

It is hard to beat a HD vehicle for long term durability. My 2007 GMC 3/4 ton HD Duramax is a case in point. I have 130,000 miles with a history of very few repairs. Front end bushings and a right wheel bearing a few miles ago and it keeps on trucking. At 40M I added air ride similar to Kelderman and it tows and rides empty as smooth as silk. It sure is easy on the 34 footer. I think I will keep it.
guskmg

[Rounder44]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

Is this a joke or you simply wanted to start a thread singing the praises of Toyotas. Just buy yourself another Toyota and be done with it.
You start out praising your Toyota and questioning the quality of the Ford.
Since you opened the door, for the last twenty five years we have only used Ford F-150 through F-350 pick up trucks in our construction business as service trucks. We don't even look at trading them until 300 k plus miles. Aside from normal maintenance, wear items and an occasional fuel pump they run and run and run.

Definitely questioning Ford quality! I've owned Fords!~ Questioning Toyotas, Chevy and Dodge too!

Now.. questioning and denigrating are separate issues and the fact the F150 has come so far as to be top of my list on first search should say something!

But the F150 with same set up as the Tundra I want (TRD Off Road 4x4) is ~$5K more as they are more popular and sell. Tundras are at the bottom of the class due to payload and mileage but I think long term rise to the top. TRD Off Road a proven

Tundra may be the last of the old school trucks with 8 cylinders that fire full force full time. A much more proven design than any makers schemes to boost power or mileage

Again... Toyota is cutting great deals now but Ford wouldn't even entertain much off...

R44

[mkcurtiss]

Originally Posted by Rounder44

Definitely questioning Ford quality! I've owned Fords!~ Questioning Toyotas, Chevy and Dodge too!

Now.. questioning and denigrating are separate issues and the fact the F150 has come so far as to be top of my list on first search should say something!

But the F150 with same set up as the Tundra I want (TRD Off Road 4x4) is ~$5K more as they are more popular and sell. Tundras are at the bottom of the class due to payload and mileage but I think long term rise to the top. TRD Off Road a proven

Tundra may be the last of the old school trucks with 8 cylinders that fire full force full time. A much more proven design than any makers schemes to boost power or mileage

Again... Toyota is cutting great deals now but Ford wouldn't even entertain much off...

R44

Like it or lump it, the F-150 is not only the best selling truck in America, it is the best selling vehicle period....they do not have to do much negotiating, because someone else will come along and pay sticker price......I think it is too much for a truck, but folks keep paying it.

[Rounder44]

Originally Posted by mkcurtiss

Like it or lump it, the F-150 is not only the best selling truck in America, it is the best selling vehicle period....they do not have to do much negotiating, because someone else will come along and pay sticker price......I think it is too much for a truck, but folks keep paying it.

So evidently you do not own one of the recent models you are defending? So your in the same boat as I.

I spent some time on Carcomplaints which has consumer and NHTA feedback. Intersting stats if you care to view. I'll highlight a few...

Carcomplaints.com Has the 2016 year (which gives best data pool - 3 years back) of 199 complaints on F150, 14 on Tundra.

NHTA Complaints on F150 Engine problems: 539
NHTA Complaints on Tundra Drivetrain problems: 2

There were 4 serious NHTA investigations on F150 Engine and brakes
Zero on Tundra...

And so forth....

R44

[Garfish]

I wanted more power and payload for my 22 but was looking for a vehicle for daily that is also good for tv. Highlander used for 16 Sport was not what I wanted for the new 22. Stuck with SUV as it fit more overall needs best. $55,000 got me a 2016, low mileage, certified pre owned MZB 450GL with 2 1/2 years warranty. Love the car as driver and great for the AS. Just saying I did not want or need a truck and resell will be good in 2 1/2 years when I will also go longer on a new AS

[KK4YZ]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

For a 22’ it really doesn’t matter what you tow it with. Get another Toyota if that works for you.

Ok. Where is the real CountryBoy and what have you done with him? ��

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by Rounder44

So evidently you do not own one of the recent models you are defending? So your in the same boat as I.

I spent some time on Carcomplaints which has consumer and NHTA feedback. Intersting stats if you care to view. I'll highlight a few...

Carcomplaints.com Has the 2016 year (which gives best data pool - 3 years back) of 199 complaints on F150, 14 on Tundra.

NHTA Complaints on F150 Engine problems: 539
NHTA Complaints on Tundra Drivetrain problems: 2

There were 4 serious NHTA investigations on F150 Engine and brakes
Zero on Tundra...

And so forth....

R44

In 2016 Ford sold approximately 820,000 F-150 pickups in USA

In 2016 Toyota sold approximately 115,00 Tundras in USA

You need to factor this in when looking at these complaint websites.Some of the complaints are also bogus for each manufacturer.

[ga adkins]

Stay away from Ram if you need a full printed owners manual. They promise, but don't deliver.

[Rounder44]

Originally Posted by Moflash

In 2016 Ford sold approximately 820,000 F-150 pickups in USA

In 2016 Toyota sold approximately 115,00 Tundras in USA

You need to factor this in when looking at these complaint websites.Some of the complaints are also bogus for each manufacturer.

Yes and no...

Consumer complaints; yes, NHTA investigations; no.

Believe or not I'm still trying to find an F150 model I like which would be the FX4 in my price range. I just don't think price and performance wise it can match the TRD Off Road. But it is a kind of cooler truck!

Ford offers so many variants of power plants I'm confused on the matter...

Despite what sounds like Ford bashing (I guess you didn't read my complaints on Tundra weak payload and poor mileage) I've only decided on which Tundra I would get. IF I can determine and find the F150 model I like I will dig deeper and seriously consider.

R44

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by KK4YZ

Ok. Where is the real CountryBoy and what have you done with him? ��

I feel like I’ve seen this thread somewhere before.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by mkcurtiss

We just got a 2018 Tahoe to tow our 26' overlander.....it pulls it great, and is getting 12-13 mpg towing....

These are my observations...

1. New pick ups are ridiculously overpriced new....of course, as long as the public keeps buying them, they will continue to raise the price.
No matter what you get, unless it is another Toyota, you will probably be disappointed at some point, with the need for service.

I mean no disrespect to the Ram guys, but Dodge trucks fall apart at an unprecedented rate....and I mean fall apart, literally. The entire front suspension, and steering fails on those trucks in no time.....If it were not for the Cummins motor, those trucks would be worthless, imo.

The Chevy/GMC line of full size suv's have a long history of good service, and are fairly heavy duty.

I do not see many people using Ford Expeditions for tv's, and I don't really know why, other than a string of bad engine problems a number of years ago......early cam phasers would fail, and it usually resulted in catastrophic engine failure.

For me, buying a 55-75,000 pick up truck to tow a camper is not a good value unless you really need a truck. An suv is much more useful, and in most cases will haul just about as much, save the HD lines of each....

I have to employ Dave Ramsay's ethics when buying cars......If I can get the exact same vehicle, 2 years old, and save $20,000 , I just have to do it. After I drive a new car for 2 years, it is still a used car. And I just gave the next owner $20,000 free. I don't like that.

But as someone mentioned earlier , some folks have tons of extra cash laying around, and the $$ is a secondary issue to them, which is cool too.

I do not like the new diesel engine trucks.....those motors are so complex, and super expensive to work on, and getting service can be difficult and take a long time.....My brother has a Dodge Ram 2500 w/Cummins diesel.....about 180,000 miles now......He has completely rebuilt that truck from front to back, save the Transmission.....The motor has been pretty good, but has died several times, while out of town, and left him basically stranded, numerous times.....now it needs new fuel injectors......6 fuel injectors.....$3,000.00 !!!!!!! And that was a cut rate price from a local shop that is run by a friend ! ......they just not worth it, not to mention it is so noisy I want to shoot myself after 3-4 hours riding in it.

Not sure what diesel trucks you’ve been in. Mine is as quiet as any gas truck and I’ve had both gas and diesel for yrears. My Ram is 7 years old and far from “literally falling apart” but they do have some suspension components that can be upgraded. If you’re a spreadsheet mechanic a Ram is not for you. A diesel needs LOTS of maintenance; again if you’re not handy pick something less complicated.

Anyway, the OP has a 22’. You can tow that with anything.

[wbrisett]

Originally Posted by pteck

At the definite risk of offending many brand diehards.

There's not many areas of things where brand matters, but trucks are one of the few... and opinions about them are many!

[wbrisett]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

I'm skeptical of anecdotal evidence you'll get here. "My F-350 diesel gets 30 mpg towing my 30' Classic!"

I always roll my eyes when I see this type of stuff. As somebody who has owned many towing vehicles, gas and diesel, over the years, my absolute best has always been non-towing (as it should be), and at lower uninterrupted speeds (again, as it should be). When I see these claims of getting super high mileage, I always toss those out. Now, there is one exception. If somebody is driving in higher altitudes MPGs naturally go up. I can remember getting nearly 40 MPG in Yellowstone (non-towing), but that's at 7,000 ft in elevation and makes sense. Towing my 27FB, I've never seen more than 14/15 MPG and that's with a ¾ ton diesel (which means it's not working that hard).

[wbrisett]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

Not sure what diesel trucks you’ve been in. Mine is as quiet as any gas truck and I’ve had both gas and diesel for years.

Agree. I've been in three of the four ¾ ton (or nearly ¾ ... Nissan) in the past few years and all of them are extremely quiet, if you weren't putting in DEF you would almost never know you were in a diesel.

One area that people aren't talking about in the gas vs. diesel is cost.

Diesels, while I love them, do have a higher cost of ownership. Higher costs when it comes to oil changes and other services, higher fuel prices, and there's the issue of adding DEF which adds to the cost of driving.

You do make up for this additional costs if you do lots of driving because diesel engines tend to last longer (but that's a pretty broad statement, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't).

With the OP's 22 footer, he can almost use anything to tow, so it's down to just ensuring the vehicle he is looking at really covers the GCWR.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by wbrisett

One area that people aren't talking about in the gas vs. diesel is cost.

Diesels, while I love them, do have a higher cost of ownership. Higher costs when it comes to oil changes and other services, higher fuel prices, and there's the issue of adding DEF which adds to the cost of driving.

You do make up for this additional costs if you do lots of driving because diesel engines tend to last longer (but that's a pretty broad statement, .

Just getting the EGR valve cleaned (on a non deleted truck) can cost $1500 at a dealer and should be done periodically. It’s not a difficult job but takes a few hours. I do it myself for the cost of a few gaskets. Upgrading to greasable ball joints and tie rod ends, which I do when the truck is brand new, eliminates all of the suspension complaints on many of the HD trucks. You don’t even want to know the dealer cost for this. And my DIY oil and filter change with synthetic T6 and fuel filter, done at 4,000 miles, is $200. Skip these steps and your HD diesel will “literally fall apart”.

The cylinder deactivation on some of the V8 gas engines is going to cost a ton to fix. The OP won’t need to worry about this on his Toyota; I don’t think they deactivate cylinders (yet?).

[GettinAway]

I think it boils down to how long you’re going to keep it, and how many miles you’re going to put on it. Any truck or suv will pull a 22’ sport. I won’t roll the dice and leave Toyota.

[SYC2Vette]

We usually keep our vehicles for about 15 years and over 200,000 miles, I have always had GM trucks and love my GMC Canyon V6 which handles our 20' FC easily with WD and an upgraded hitch. Bet it would work for you and is a really nice daily driver too with excellent handling and performance. Still keeping my 2000 long bed K2500/454 for hauling though. My highest mileage GM was a Silverado that in 215,000 only needed a new alternator and u-joints.

The Nissans looks pretty good on paper but my niece has an Armada that has had numerous problems including needing a new transmission in less than 100,000 miles.

All that said, I have a friend with a Tundra who just hit 240,000 miles and has had zero repairs required. Why not just stick with Toyota if you can live with the "styling" which is just personal taste anyway?

[PatLee]

Consumer Reports just came out with their annual Car/Truck ratings - believe it is still on the shelf. Very helpful.