Electrical upgrade wiring diagram

[SabaRocks]

I am planning an electrical upgrade to our 2015 Flying Cloud 27FB. I want to get the trailer better suited for boondocking but am also keeping in mind ease of installation and cost. I figure the plan I have come up with with get me 80% of the results with 20% of the cost/effort with some good energy conservation measures. We have two Honda EU2000 generators which we can use, but it would be nice to not have to rely on them daily if possible. Also, would be nice to leave trailer parked for months and have solar maintain batteries. I have done a lot of research on the forum and came up with the following.

Overall, I want to upgrade the charger/converter to the Progressive Dynamics drop-in unit, upgrade batteries to group 27 AGMs (have front bunk so can't raise box lid and don't want to fuss with welding or putting inside, etc.), install a battery monitoring system (BM-712), install 200W solar on the roof utilizing prewires (yes, bigger wire would be great, but I am a firm believer in 80/20 rule as long as this is all safe), and allow for future expansion of portable solar panels up to 200W.

To plan materials and install, I developed the following wiring diagram. The stuff grayed out, dashed, italicized is existing that I will not mess with. I have indicated new wire size minimums on the chart as well based on my research. Can anyone who has done this before look it over and let me know if I have left anything out electrical-component-wise for what I plan to do? It would be much appreciated - measure twice and cut once!

Any other easy upgrades I obviously missed?

[mycloud9]

Greetings,

Assumption is you want a very balanced system. My comment addresses your choice of Lifeline AGM Batteries. A very good Battery which will give you many years of service if properly maintained. The devil is in the details.

The Lifeline AGM Batteries require an Absorption charge of 14.3 +/- 0.1 volts and a Float charge voltage of 13.3 +/- 0.1 volts. These voltages vary with temperature.

Your Progressive Dynamics PD4655V has an Absorption voltage of 13.6 v (Low) and a Float voltage of 13.2 volts (OK) and no Equalization mode. (Lifeline call this the Conditioning Mode). The PD4655V has no temperature compensation ability.

Your 1000 Watt Inverter (I assume a WAFCO) has no pass thru capability.

There is a Magnum Energy MSH3012RV which is a combination Converter and Inverter. Programmable for Flood / AGM 1 / AGM 2 / GEL or Custom battery Charging specifications including Equalization and Temperature compensation.

It is a Hybrid Inverter, will allow Batteries to supplement Shore/Generator power for momentary overloads (Air Conditioner starts). Also has pass-thru capability. (Shore/Generator powering Inverter circuits)

They have a lot of Solar control equipment as well. Can't help you there.

I have done extensive research on Batteries and Charging requirements.

Good Luck!
Dave

[mycloud9]

Greetings,

Assumption is you want a very balanced system. My comment addresses your choice of Lifeline AGM Batteries. A very good Battery which will give you many years of service if properly maintained. The devil is in the details.

The Lifeline AGM Batteries require an Absorption charge of 14.3 +/- 0.1 volts and a Float charge voltage of 13.3 +/- 0.1 volts. These voltages vary with temperature.

Your Progressive Dynamics PD4655V has an Absorption voltage of 13.6 v (Low) and a Float voltage of 13.2 volts (OK) and no Equalization mode. (Lifeline call this the Conditioning Mode). The PD4655V has no temperature compensation ability.

Your 1000 Watt Inverter (I assume a WAFCO) has no pass thru capability.

There is a Magnum Energy MSH3012RV which is a combination Converter and Inverter. Programmable for Flood / AGM 1 / AGM 2 / GEL or Custom battery Charging specifications including Equalization and Temperature compensation.

It is a Hybrid Inverter, will allow Batteries to supplement Shore/Generator power for momentary overloads (Air Conditioner starts). Also has pass-thru capability. (Shore/Generator powering Inverter circuits) This is an expensive piece of equipment (~$2500)

They have a lot of Solar control equipment as well. Can't help you there.

I have done extensive research on Batteries and Charging requirements.

I have re-read your post and understand cost is a big factor. All comments about charging voltages and temperature compensation is still a major factor. Re-evaluate the PD4655V Converter.

Good Luck!
Dave

[steverino]

Your plan is almost identical to the system I installed in my (now sold) 27FB. I went with 300 W solar on the roof, and it performed very well, supplying all electrical needs during the day, and topping off the grp 27 AGMs by early afternoon each day. The only times it couldn’t keep up was on foggy Northern California coastline camping trips in the winter, when the sun never got high in the sky. Your portable option would help that situation.

[Pencilpusher]

Your WFCO inverter may have pass through capability depending on the model. You should look up the exact model number as the newer WFCO inverters in Airstreams do have pass through capabilities. Good luck with your upgrade!

[Zil]

I'm in favor of independent devices. A good charger for charging. A dedicated inverter for the smaller 120 volt stuff. Shore line for the heavy 120 volt stuff. You may want to look at Pronautic marine battery chargers if need to charge from mains. Depending on the length of cables, you need a fuse at the battery positive. If the wire sizes change, you need fuses at the bus bar. I like the MorningStar solar charge controllers. With a small system, PWM would be fine.

[TG Twinkie]

Zil x 2

[marter]

I'm putting in something very similar and notice the diagram shows 2 30a fuses ahead of the controller. Is this necessary or would a single fuse after the on- off switch do the same thing?

Thanks,
Mike

[SabaRocks]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Good to hear similar setups have been used successfully. I hope to not use the inverter much outside of some limited TV and laptop use so I don’t have plans to replace it (it is WFCO).

Mycloud - I was worried about the charge settings of the PD charger and the Lifelines. It seems like folks here have used them together successfully though. Do you guys think a call to Lifeline would be the best way to verify? I don’t think the PD charger can be programmed? Anyone know what factory charger setup is from AS with solar option that has Lifelines? Is it still the default Parallax?

Zil - I will check to be sure original install has a fuse on the 6 ga wire off battery. I assumed one was at the panel but maybe there is an inline one somewhere. Anyone know what the factory default was?

Mike - Regarding the fuses question, the On-off switch would be on heavier 6 ga wire than the 10 ga with the fuses, so My initial thought was you need the two fuses to protect the two 10 ga wires separately... That being said, I would not anticipate current greater than 30 amps combined from all 400W solar, so I guess you could get by with the one like suggested. The two fuses on the 10 ga wires protects them from freak current greater than what is safe for them though - safe solution that is cheap and easy for inline fuses. Anyone else have any thoughts?

[marter]

Originally Posted by SabaRocks

Mike - Regarding the fuses question, the On-off switch would be on heavier 6 ga wire than the 10 ga with the fuses, so My initial thought was you need the two fuses to protect the two 10 ga wires separately... That being said, I would not anticipate current greater than 30 amps combined from all 400W solar, so I guess you could get by with the one like suggested. The two fuses on the 10 ga wires protects them from freak current greater than what is safe for them though - safe solution that is cheap and easy for inline fuses. Anyone else have any thoughts?

I see quite a few ways people are connecting solar, and I'm not sure what's right. For instance Renogy sells an inline 10a fuse for their portables. WindyNation has a good article here on fusing a solar panel system. But then I read the FAQ page on AMSolar and find this:

Do I need fuses or breakers? Where?
You aren’t going to get a surge from solar panels (unless maybe there was a very unusual solar flare, in which case you have bigger issues to worry about.) Because of that, our kits do not use fuses between the panels and the charge controller.

To protect the charge controller in the event of a short-circuit or some other unforeseen event, we recommend a fuse or breaker on the positive line between the charge controller and the battery bank rated at the maximum current of the charge controller.

We also recommend a fuse on the positive line between the battery bank and the inverter. To determine the size of this fuse, take the wattage rating of the inverter, divide it by 12 and multiply it by 1.25. For example, a 2000 watt inverter would have a rating of about 200A (2000 / 12 x 1.25 ≈ 200).

Not sure what to believe. Any thoughts?

Happy trails,
Mike

[68 Overlander]

Originally Posted by mycloud9

Your 1000 Watt Inverter (I assume a WAFCO) has no pass thru capability.

Actually they all do and did. The older 600 and newer WF-1000R all have pass-thru and remote.

[68 Overlander]

Originally Posted by mycloud9

Greetings,

Assumption is you want a very balanced system. My comment addresses your choice of Lifeline AGM Batteries. A very good Battery which will give you many years of service if properly maintained. The devil is in the details.

The Lifeline AGM Batteries require an Absorption charge of 14.3 +/- 0.1 volts and a Float charge voltage of 13.3 +/- 0.1 volts. These voltages vary with temperature.

Your Progressive Dynamics PD4655V has an Absorption voltage of 13.6 v (Low) and a Float voltage of 13.2 volts (OK) and no Equalization mode. (Lifeline call this the Conditioning Mode). The PD4655V has no temperature compensation ability.

Your 1000 Watt Inverter (I assume a WAFCO) has no pass thru capability.

There is a Magnum Energy MSH3012RV which is a combination Converter and Inverter. Programmable for Flood / AGM 1 / AGM 2 / GEL or Custom battery Charging specifications including Equalization and Temperature compensation.

It is a Hybrid Inverter, will allow Batteries to supplement Shore/Generator power for momentary overloads (Air Conditioner starts). Also has pass-thru capability. (Shore/Generator powering Inverter circuits) This is an expensive piece of equipment (~$2500)

They have a lot of Solar control equipment as well. Can't help you there.

I have done extensive research on Batteries and Charging requirements.

I have re-read your post and understand cost is a big factor. All comments about charging voltages and temperature compensation is still a major factor. Re-evaluate the PD4655V Converter.

Good Luck!
Dave

We have folks here with not less than 8 years on Lifeline batteries (11 for me but admittedly at the end of their life) and the PD 4 stage charge technology (PD, Boondocker, Iota) That is all you need. Personally I would not spend a dime on temp comp in the US but we do send a few out for those that want to spend the money. The owner of Lifeline (Dave Godber) recommends the Boondocker. Fullriver is evaluating it too since it has the exact boost they are looking for.

[mycloud9]

True most WAFCO inverters have passthrough capability. Have not seen any passthrough capability implemented in Airstream installations. I would be interested in finding out. Looking at my 2015 FC 30’ I could make the mos but would have to bring 115vac from the Power Center thru the Dinette area to the front of the trailer where the WAFCO is located. Other than a project I don’t have a specific need.

[mycloud9]

Many good comments. I am anal about specifications, engineering background. An excellent read is the Lifeline Tech Manual
http://2cw8eb1vmmgg3g5i7jzt6upo.wpen...cal-Manual.pdf

Also I suggest you contact any vendor about their specific equipment (batteries, chargers, etc). Good conversations. Lifeline addressed Conditioning (Desulfate or Equalizing) while other AGM mbattery manufacturers say absolutely not. I know of Lifeline users with more than 10 years of serviceable battery use. While Temp Compensation is part of all (Flood, AGM and GEL) charge specifications there is not a lot of implementations with Converters. Nor do I see a lot of battery manufacturers very vocal on the topic. Higher dollar Converters or Inverter Chargers $700-3000 have this capability and is beyond the reach for most applications. If in question call the manufacturer be it Lifeline or Trojan and obtain their short list of approved Chargers. GEL batteries have lower charge voltages and are likely to be damaged by many converters. I have yet to dive into SOLAR equipment specifications and enjoy threads such as this to pick up bits and pieces as I go along.

[SabaRocks]

Thanks for all the advice here. I hope to post a detailed description of the project and the tricky parts with more pictures, but here are some of the final project now for reference. Seems to work great so far. It was a little tight getting all the wiring done with the new components but it all fits in the existing location with a little planning. Time to clean the wires up a bit now.

[eganwh]

Originally Posted by SabaRocks

Thanks for all the advice here. I hope to post a detailed description of the project and the tricky parts with more pictures, but here are some of the final project now for reference. Seems to work great so far. It was a little tight getting all the wiring done with the new components but it all fits in the existing location with a little planning. Time to clean the wires up a bit now.

Looks great. Thanks for posting. Add details when you can. I am planning something very similar. Moving the AGMs into the trunk and adding the monitor (712), and now I am convinced to upgrade the solar charger (as well) as you have done. Question: Did you remove the OEM solar display located in the galley? Or, just leave it dead. Thanks.

[waninae39]

this is my schematic.
when i have time, i make a proper visio version

mostly victron items all connected and monitored
pls BB lion battery

and my monitoring position above the sport 22Fb fridge

[eganwh]

Originally Posted by mycloud9

True most WAFCO inverters have passthrough capability. Have not seen any passthrough capability implemented in Airstream installations. I would be interested in finding out.

I was comparing some wiring diagrams (various years) for the 27 FB configuration and noticed the '18 MY 50 Amp looks to be wired for pass through of the inverter circuit (7). Other trailer lengths for this year look to be pass through as well.

[waninae39]

this is my updated DC power diagram showing all the items and connections

[Llittle54]

Originally Posted by waninae39

this is my updated DC power diagram showing all the items and connections

Waninae39 Is the shunt supposed to be on the pos wire from the battery in your diagram? Thanks for the diagram. I probably will have more questions when I get closer to a lithium upgrade.