Copper compression fittings vs. flare fittings

[markdoane]

Originally Posted by Wardinbb

. . . the first step inserts are all that are necessary?
Ed

Yes. The height of the large end of the first step button is the gauge for setting the height of tubing above the flaring bar.

[TomW]

Originally Posted by lewster

Tom W,

While single flares work, the current national gas codes spcify double flares for LP use, especially in TT's and MoHo's. Just trying to keep you around the orum for a while!

I understand completely. Thank you for your concern. Karma to you, sir for sharing today's code.

Tom

[lewster]

Tom,

You are most welcome!

[overlander63]

My Overlander is home for the weekend. I think I will double check the lines going to the gas lamp before it goes back to storage. It never hurts to be sure, and what looks like a flare fitting to me may be another compression fitting.

[Wardinbb]

Originally Posted by overlander63

My Overlander is home for the weekend. I think I will double check the lines going to the gas lamp before it goes back to storage. It never hurts to be sure, and what looks like a flare fitting to me may be another compression fitting.

after ya turned the stove on to see if it leaked? I think your idea is good, it can't hurt to find out and it could hurt plenty someday if its not right. Let us all know what you found. It would be a very bad thing to have a repeat condition like that from an original install.

Ed

[lewster]

One other 'pearl of wisdom' from the RV 'Powers-That-Be': Always use a back-up wrench when working a flair fitting. In order of preference: flair wrenches, standard wrenches, crescent (adjustable) wrenches. Please, NO VISEGRIPS!!

Be safe out there!!!

[Wardinbb]

I found the double flare or double lap adapters here: http://stores.ebay.com/USA-Excess-Su...QQftidZ2QQtZkm

If you're interested in adding to an existing flare tool set-up that you have, these will top it off. I shall seek concurrance from Don as to quality and price.

Ed

[Wardinbb]

The link above for the adapters wasn't quite direct, so scroll down on the page you reach to see this item: ROTHENBERGER ROFLARE 45 DEG FLARING ADAPTER


Ed

[Wardinbb]

Here's the latest I could find from New - Standard for Recreational Vehicles (NFPA 1192 - 2005) Publications/Standards
© 2005, National Fire Protection Association, 46 pp.
;
Contained therein is the following;
ANSI A119.2/NFPA 1192
Standard on
Recreational Vehicles
2002 Edition

5.4.6 Gas Tubing Joints. Gas tubing joints shall be permitted to
be made with a single or double flare of 45 degrees conforming
to SAE J533, Flares for Tubing, as recommended by the tubing
manufacturer, or by means of listed vibration-resistant fittings, or
the joints shall be brazed with a material having a melting point
exceeding 1000°F (538°C). Brazing alloys shall not contain phosphorus.
Sealants shall not be used on tubing joints. Ball sleeve or
one-piece internal compression-type tubing fittings shall not be
used. (See 5.5.5.)
As you can tell the NFPA book is dated 2005, the ANSI reference therein is 2002.
5.4.2 Gas Piping System Materials. Materials used for the installation,

extension, alteration, or repair of any gas piping system
shall be new and free from defects or internal obstructions. Inferior
or defective materials in gas piping or fittings shall be replaced
and shall not be repaired. Inferior or defective materials
shall be removed and replaced with acceptable material. The system
shall be made of materials having a melting point of not less
than 1450

°F (788°C), except as provided in 5.4.5, 5.4.6, and
5.4.12, or of materials (used in piping or fittings) listed for the
specific use intended. Gas piping system materials shall be permitted
to consist of one or more of the following materials:
(1) Gas pipe shall be steel or wrought-iron pipe complying
with ASTM A 53, Specifications for Pipe, Steel, Black and Hot-
Dipped, Zinc-Coated Welded and Seamless. Threaded copper or
brass pipe in iron pipe sizes shall be permitted to be used.
(2) Fittings for gas piping shall be wrought iron, malleable
iron, steel, or brass (containing not more than 75 percent
copper). Brass flare nuts shall be stress relieved or of the
forged type.
(3) Copper tubing shall be annealed Type K or L, conforming
to ASTM B 88, Standard Specifications for Seamless Copper
Water Tube, or shall comply with ASTM B 280, Specifications
for Seamless Copper Tube for Air Conditioning and Refrigeration
Field Service. Where used on systems designed for natural
gas, copper tubing shall be internally tinned.

So does the gas code refered in the above post supercede or is there a legitimate choice? I'm really not trying to be difficult, just trying to follow the right course of action. This info states that you can use either K or L grade, high or medium pressure copper tube respectively, and choose to single or double flare at fittings. Or is the general concensus of Forum participants simply that a double flare is a better installation with high pressure K copper tube?
Ed

[Tinsel Loaf]

Ed
Ed
Common sense (To me) would dictate a double flare hi pressure tubing for use on equipment that is exposed to the extremes of mobile structures like Airstreams or equipment that is under possible undue stress because of environmentally unstable conditions. Putting in a gas line that will never be moved or subjected to anything, medium pressure tubing, but always a double flare.

[TomW]

To me, a double flare, in this application, is required more to guard against poor workmanship issues than anything else. A double layer of soft copper has a better chance of sealing against its harder brass or bronze fitting than a single flayer does. A properly formed single flare is more than capable of providing the required seal.

In days of old, more people took pride in their workmanship than is evidenced nowadays. It is a good thing that the Code Moderators keep up with how work is currently being performed.

Obviously just my opinion.

Tom

[Wardinbb]

Tinsel, I agree.
Tom, good observation as well.
My prior post I believe was out of frustration more than anything else. Fortunately the craftsmanship on my LP lines, excepting the lantern set-up, has been fine. I pressure tested the system last year and all was well, even the compression fittings. I've always been trying to just get my AS operational. That's been the battle cry and every time I get something done, I get to take 2 steps back for something else. I've been moving ahead with the notion that the LP lines should be updated to comply with a double flare code and then when I find the code, or a code, and it's contrary to the belief at the moment. Part of my frustration stems from the aspect that from the dozen or so samples of double flares I've done on the bench, they need be almost perfect to get what they're suppossed to be. Not to mention that in the field, any sort of debris generated in attempting to get a tube square or deburred creates the opportunity for a blocked orafice down the road. But hey, you gotta do what ya gotta do to be confident that all is well. I'll work it all out. I've won all the battles I've started with this rig so there's really no reason to conclude that I'm not gonna win the war! It's just gonna take longer and a few more bucks.

Ed

[clancy_boy]

ALL,

My two cents: I have plans to do the same thing for my Caravel. Plan to cook outside most of the time - large burner for boiling crabs or coleman camp stove. Asked my local gas supplier when he came by to fill my home tank (they did my install for my whole house generator 16 days before Katrina hit!) how much to splice my line for a quick connect on the AS and he said five ($5) bucks plus parts. That's where I'm going before my first camp out to fill up the new tanks and then he said - just bring the connector with me and he would make the splice while I waited.

Mike

[Wardinbb]

The only abnormally so far is that the ½” OD K rated tube wall exceeds the rating for a double flare, thus I reckon that you could still go with that stock and single flare it.
In my neck of the woods, the personnel at the gas company, or at least the folks at the LP yard, are paid hourly and dislike their donut time being interrupted. Any “extrie” service has to be made by appointment, which is normally scheduled on the day the person has off or the shop turns out to be closed cause the credit card used for bail was denied the night before.
ClanceyBoy, you don’t need to boil crabs. The way you handle them puppies is to shave half the area, light the other side on fire and stab em with an ice pick when they run over.

[Mike76251]

Compression VS Flare....
I was a pipe fitter for 25 years and have installed thousands of both.
Compression fittings from Parker or Swegelock with take 3000 lbs of pressure before they fail......vibration or not.
The line will fail before the fitting will.
To do a true double flair as is recommened.......you need a $300 Eastman flair tool.
It is not so much what you use......but knowing how to use it.
If you know how to tighten a compression fitting to the factory settings,
it will outlast you.

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by Wardinbb

[/i]

after ya turned the stove on to see if it leaked? I think your idea is good, it can't hurt to find out and it could hurt plenty someday if its not right. Let us all know what you found. It would be a very bad thing to have a repeat condition like that from an original install.

Ed

I took a look at the fittings to the lamp, and they are all flare fittings. That is a good thing, as I didn't really want to tear it all apart and re-plumb the LP system.
I DID notice when I had it on last night, the wall behind the lamp and just above it gets very warm, almost hot. Has anybody put anything behind the lamp to help reduce the risk of the woodwork catching fire while in use?

[Wardinbb]

Originally Posted by overlander63

I took a look at the fittings to the lamp, and they are all flare fittings. That is a good thing, as I didn't really want to tear it all apart and re-plumb the LP system.
I DID notice when I had it on last night, the wall behind the lamp and just above it gets very warm, almost hot. Has anybody put anything behind the lamp to help reduce the risk of the woodwork catching fire while in use?

Boy, I sure can't help you there. I have never turned it on because there's never been any LP hooked up since I've had the thing! When I first saw it I thought how unsafe, and considered removing it, but then realized it would be the sole sourse of light if the battery expired on a trip. I think you're workin' up a new thread here. All I can say is that I've seen many folks looking for a new one, so how hot is hot and I don't recall seeing any adverse posts about them. Just where the best deal is!

[kenwadude]

Wow, good to know.
I am doing a 67 Safari over and it looks like the PO added a Catalytic heater with connections next to the furnace. I will check it out to make sure.
Thanks for the heads up.
Ken